Is St. John's still a true rival?

[Townie72]

It is way too early to declare any sort of rivalry with Duke. But SU got their attention last year. Show that you can compete with and beat them on a yearly basis, and something will come of it. Maryland was never in Duke's class for longer than a couple of years, nor are they in SU's class. If both SU and Duke continue to perform at the level we've been accustomed to for decades, and the series is not lop-sided, the series will have a lot of luster, regardless of who's coaching the teams in the future.

Wait a minute.

Maryland isn't in SU's class? You need to take your Big East glasses off.

Maryland was a big time program when SU was battling Canisius and St Bona for the championship of Upstate NY.

They have won a NC recently and have a ton of Sweet 16's and Great 8's.

 

[senorpalmer]

Wait a minute.

Maryland isn't in SU's class? You need to take your Big East glasses off.

Maryland was a big time program when SU was battling Canisius and St Bona for the championship of Upstate NY.

They have won a NC recently and have a ton of Sweet 16's and Great 8's.

CCNY and San Francisco were great once too. Compare the programs over the last 10, 20, or 30 years. There is no comparison. None.

 

[senorpalmer]

You could say the same thing for every team in the ACC. Their fans don't like Duke. So what?

But for Duke they have one rival, UNC. It's highly unlikely that SU will ever achieve that status in the Dukie's eyes unless SU moves its campus to North Carolina.

It would take decades at a minimum to even think that some other team could supplant duke or unc as either programs chief rival. But competition ultimately breeds rivalry. Achieve a high level of success in the league and overall, and play a competitive series against another strong program like duke or unc, and a rivalry will be born.

 

[Townie72]

It would take decades at a minimum to even think that some other team could supplant duke or unc as either programs chief rival. But competition ultimately breeds rivalry. Achieve a high level of success in the league and overall, and play a competitive series against another strong program like duke or unc, and a rivalry will be born.

Let's see. In the post about Maryland, you said only recent history counts. And in this one, you seem to feel taking forever will be OK.

With all the conditions you have in your post (achieve a high level of success, play a competitive series) it sounds like its got a small chance of ever occurring.

 

[Townie72]

CCNY and San Francisco were great once too. Compare the programs over the last 10, 20, or 30 years. There is no comparison. None.

You are aware they won the NC a year apart from SU?

 

[Bayside44]

CCNY and San Francisco were great once too. Compare the programs over the last 10, 20, or 30 years. There is no comparison. None.

Just to be sure, we aren't talking about lacrosse...?

 

[senorpalmer]

You are aware they won the NC a year apart from SU?

That title is now almost 13 years ago. And SU's title is almost 12 years ago. Of course since then, SU has been to another Final 4 and received 9 bids in 11 seasons, winning 15 games in that span, and have been to the regionals in 4 other instances (not including 2013 that is).

By comparison, since Maryland won its title, they've received a whopping 5 NCAA bids in 12 seasons, have won a grand total of 6 NCAA tournament games, haven't seen the regionals since 03, and haven't seen the tournament at all since 2010.

Now let's examine a longer period of time...let's say, the 64 bid era that began in 1985 and spans the last 30 years. SU has 25 tournament bids in that span and has gone 48-24 in that time, with four Final 4 appearances. Maryland in that span has 17 bids with a record of 29-16, and two Final 4 appearances.

If you feel the need to go back further than 30 years to compare the two programs, be my guest, but I stand by my assertion that SU is far and away on another level when comparing the two basketball programs.

 

[senorpalmer]

Let's see. In the post about Maryland, you said only recent history counts. And in this one, you seem to feel taking forever will be OK.

With all the conditions you have in your post (achieve a high level of success, play a competitive series) it sounds like its got a small chance of ever occurring.

I don't think it's really that complex. If, say, in the next 4-5 years, SU were to go something like 4-4 against Duke and demonstrate that they could be a consistent upper echelon program in the ACC, a rivalry between the two programs would develop. I wouldn't expect it to supplant the UNC/Duke rivalry, but teams can actually have more than one rival at any given time as we ourselves had witnessed during SU's time in the Big East.

 

[senorpalmer]

Just to be sure, we aren't talking about lacrosse...?

We are talking basketball SUball

 

[Townie72]

That title is now almost 13 years ago. And SU's title is almost 12 years ago. Of course since then, SU has been to another Final 4 and received 9 bids in 11 seasons, winning 15 games in that span, and have been to the regionals in 4 other instances (not including 2013 that is).

By comparison, since Maryland won its title, they've received a whopping 5 NCAA bids in 12 seasons, have won a grand total of 6 NCAA tournament games, haven't seen the regionals since 03, and haven't seen the tournament at all since 2010.

Now let's examine a longer period of time...let's say, the 64 bid era that began in 1985 and spans the last 30 years. SU has 25 tournament bids in that span and has gone 48-24 in that time, with four Final 4 appearances. Maryland in that span has 17 bids with a record of 29-16, and two Final 4 appearances.

If you feel the need to go back further than 30 years to compare the two programs, be my guest, but I stand by my assertion that SU is far and away on another level when comparing the two basketball programs.

And I disagree.

Your own selected statistics point out the weakness of your claim "nor are they in SU's class".

25 Bids vs 17? That's supposed to bolster your point? I'd say that statistic demonstrates two programs that are in the same "class". And we aren't even factoring the decades SU spent as a small time program.

Of course, Maryland does have some built-in advantages like a better location and a far better local talent pool.

 

[CaptainJ]

We are talking basketball SUball

By Mr Curtis Blow?

 

[Townie72]

I don't think it's really that complex. If, say, in the next 4-5 years, SU were to go something like 4-4 against Duke and demonstrate that they could be a consistent upper echelon program in the ACC, a rivalry between the two programs would develop. I wouldn't expect it to supplant the UNC/Duke rivalry, but teams can actually have more than one rival at any given time as we ourselves had witnessed during SU's time in the Big East.

At the current rate (Last 20 games or s0), SU will be lucky to have Wake Forest or Miami as a rival.

 

[senorpalmer]

At the current rate (Last 20 games or s0), SU will be lucky to have Wake Forest or Miami as a rival.

No argument there.

 

[senorpalmer]

And I disagree.

Your own selected statistics point out the weakness of your claim "nor are they in SU's class".

25 Bids vs 17? That's supposed to bolster your point? I'd say that statistic demonstrates two programs that are in the same "class". And we aren't even factoring the decades SU spent as a small time program.

Of course, Maryland does have some built-in advantages like a better location and a far better local talent pool.

When accompanied by the other data I presented, yes, absolutely, these programs are not in the same class. 8 more bids in a 30 year span is quite a notable difference. SU has made the tournament 83% of the time in the 64 team era, compared to Maryland making it 57% of the time. If you want to dig further into history, be my guest, you may also find that SU has won ~1900 games in its existence compared to the roughly 1400 Maryland has won.

 

[Bayside44]

That title is now almost 13 years ago. And SU's title is almost 12 years ago. Of course since then, SU has been to another Final 4 and received 9 bids in 11 seasons, winning 15 games in that span, and have been to the regionals in 4 other instances (not including 2013 that is).

By comparison, since Maryland won its title, they've received a whopping 5 NCAA bids in 12 seasons, have won a grand total of 6 NCAA tournament games, haven't seen the regionals since 03, and haven't seen the tournament at all since 2010.

Now let's examine a longer period of time...let's say, the 64 bid era that began in 1985 and spans the last 30 years. SU has 25 tournament bids in that span and has gone 48-24 in that time, with four Final 4 appearances. Maryland in that span has 17 bids with a record of 29-16, and two Final 4 appearances.

If you feel the need to go back further than 30 years to compare the two programs, be my guest, but I stand by my assertion that SU is far and away on another level when comparing the two basketball programs.

You realize Maryland had a death sentence in the middle of that right? I mean literally.

Maryland has Gary in the HOF, Lefty not sure, but you make them sound like Seton Hall.

 

[Nicknack]

I REALLY hope SU fans would stop buying "Beat Duke" t-shirts and mentioning the word rivalry when talking about the two teams. It makes us look weak. Think about it, Duke fans would never wear "Beat Syracuse" t-shirts. They will also never call us their rival. However, that all being said, if we keep beating them consistently, the match-up between the two programs will continue to be very intense (just like what a rivalry is all about) - we don't need the label "rivalry" for it to basically be one.

I know very well how much Duke fans want to beat us (my in-laws are all dookies unfortunately). The last thing that Duke wants is the new kid on the block from the north (outside heavenly North Carolina) to enter "their" league and outshine them. We did that for most of last year until we fell apart. That pissed them off because most dookies are so d@mn arrogant. For most SU fans, the hatred for Duke goes back well before we even entered the ACC. I for one, enjoy beating them more than any other team in the country (in part because I'm surrounded by in-laws that all went to Duke).

As for Maryland/Duke... yeah, Duke would never want to admit that they had a rivalry with Maryland because they see themselves as too good for that. However, no question about it... Duke fans hated Maryland and whether you called it a rivalry or not, it played like one between fans.

 

[senorpalmer]

You realize Maryland had a death sentence in the middle of that right? I mean literally.

Maryland has Gary in the HOF, Lefty not sure, but you make them sound like Seton Hall.

I have stated facts to support my assertion that Maryland basketball is not in the same class as Syracuse basketball. If you or anyone wants to debate that, great, that is what the board is for. So far I haven't seen a strong argument that counters mine. If you think Maryland and SU are in the same class as bball programs, by all means feel free to state your case. If you asked me to compare Maryland and Seton Hall I would tell you Maryland is the superior program based on the facts. As for Maryland's death penalty, they are ultimately responsible for that. They had a nice little resurgence for about 10 years starting the mid-90's, and then another ~10 year period since then (which has nothing to do with their aforementioned death penalty) where they've been irrelevant in basketball. Syracuse, at least in the Boeheim era, doesn't ever undergo anything like that.

All this talk about Maryland and SU has me reminiscing about some fond memories...

 

[Bayside44]

I have stated facts to support my assertion that Maryland basketball is not in the same class as Syracuse basketball. If you or anyone wants to debate that, great, that is what the board is for. So far I haven't seen a strong argument that counters mine. If you think Maryland and SU are in the same class as bball programs, by all means feel free to state your case. If you asked me to compare Maryland and Seton Hall I would tell you Maryland is the superior program based on the facts. As for Maryland's death penalty, they are ultimately responsible for that. They had a nice little resurgence for about 10 years starting the mid-90's, and then another ~10 year period since then (which has nothing to do with their aforementioned death penalty) where they've been irrelevant in basketball. Syracuse, at least in the Boeheim era, doesn't ever undergo anything like that.

All this talk about Maryland and SU has me reminiscing about some fond memories...

They had an all time great OD on coke...they are responsible for the 80s?

After our NC we ended up with a nice run of early exits and NITs. Our fortunes seemed to change when the Melo Center went up.

Class is subjective, most college basketball fans would put us in about the same grouping give or take. Doesn't really offend me.

 

[senorpalmer]

They had an all time great OD on coke...they are responsible for the 80s?

After our NC we ended up with a nice run of early exits and NITs. Our fortunes seemed to change when the Melo Center went up.

Class is subjective, most college basketball fans would put us in about the same grouping give or take. Doesn't really offend me.

Admittedly I'm having a little trouble following you. I thought you were initially referring to the fact Maryland went on probation in the early 90's and was banned from post-season play for 2 years, for things unrelated to Len Bias.

After SU's title it is true they had a brief slide that last 3-4 years, hardly a "nice run". A "nice run" would be more like the 10+ years (and counting) Maryland has gone without making it past the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

 

[tipphill]

if i have to lose to anyone, i would hope it would be st.johns. i always liked them through the years and i am glad they are getting back. i want them on our scheduele always --loved su-st.johns at msg---i have more respect for them than g'town. g'town is a hated disrectful rival with no class.--st.johns to me was a great, healthy respectful rival with a lot of class. miss louies sweaters.

 

[Bayside44]

Admittedly I'm having a little trouble following you. I thought you were initially referring to the fact Maryland went on probation in the early 90's and was banned from post-season play for 2 years, for things unrelated to Len Bias.

After SU's title it is true they had a brief slide that last 3-4 years, hardly a "nice run". A "nice run" would be more like the 10+ years (and counting) Maryland has gone without making it past the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

Lefty left, the program was a mess, and Bob Wade almost killed it. Len Bias doesn't have bender none of those things happen.

It's really not worth the effort, I don't care about Maryland but we had 2 NITs and 4 first weekend exits (ironically since squeaking by UMD in 2004) and the potential for the 2012 run to be voided by the NCAA. I understand it's better than UMD but it's not exactly beyond reproach.

 

[IthacaMatt]

St. John's hasn't been our rival since Brian Mahoney became their coach.

I'm happy we're still playing them and would like it to be a rivalry, but it's just not there. The league's goofy post-'95 scheduling contributed to that, too.

Maybe so, but we've been THEIR rival. It's been kind of like SU v. Penn State in football, except the other way around. Playing them was always an "event" game - if not at the level of Georgetown or UConn, it was one notch below.

 

[senorpalmer]

Lefty left, the program was a mess, and Bob Wade almost killed it. Len Bias doesn't have bender none of those things happen.

It's really not worth the effort, I don't care about Maryland but we had 2 NITs and 4 first weekend exits (ironically since squeaking by UMD in 2004) and the potential for the 2012 run to be voided by the NCAA. I understand it's better than UMD but it's not exactly beyond reproach.

You don't know that at all. There were institutional issues regarding the basketball program which were a black eye that happened on Lefty's watch. He resigned his position in disgrace under the guise of moving on. Len Bias' death helped pull back the curtain on these things, but let's not pretend that his death was the sole reason for the program nosediving.