It's not rocket science...

[Chip]

I believe the politically correct term is rocketship science.

 

[Alsacs]

Buddy is 12th in the ACC for assists per game. That’s not really bad at all.

Buddy is a decent player.
His usage makes his numbers higher.
His Assists per 40 aren’t that good.
He has 49 shots more than the player with the second most shots.
That gap would be the difference between the player with the 2nd most and with the 10th most shots.

Our starters compile stats because they play a lot of minutes.

It’s too bad Buddy didn’t get to play with a better roster. His numbers would be solid anyway but not inflated.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I can’t believe with all the defensive pressure on Buddy and Cole, JB hasn’t instituted some back screens and back cutting to get these guys layups. They just continue to fight the pressure instead of taking advantage of it. I don’t think a I’ve seen Buddy cut without the ball all year. Swider has done it several times for easy layups and Symir has also done it. It’s ironic that both came from other programs who actually teach players how to move without the ball. It’s called fundamentals.

 

[dollarbill44]

Iso is a big part of the offense, but JB is also running a screening motion offense, pick and roll (w Jesse), set plays off of the attempted double high screens, curls off down screens, and running shooters off of baseline screens

The problem is when this team is playing against teams that can hard pressure the ball and double on ball screens the screening part of the offense becomes ineffective and degrades into the iso desperation at the end of the shot clock. So, it might look like that iso is all that is being attempted. It's not. But, this is going to be intensified now that JE is out - everyone is going to hard hedge/double on ball screens.

The counter point is that in game 25, the dribblers should be able to recognize the double team and find the roll before getting into a situation they can't get out of. Frank was open off the screen several times Saturday, but the recognition wasn't there or was too late to get him the ball in space. I yelled at the TV every time he was open. Granted, he needed to do a better job flashing, but again, this late in the season, the backup (now starting) center should know exactly what to do. It's not like Frank didn't play before Jesse's injury. Jesse fouled out of nearly every game.
It begs the question about practice and game usage of immediate backups.

 

[MikeSU02]

I can’t believe with all the defensive pressure on Buddy and Cole, JB hasn’t instituted some back screens and back cutting to get these guys layups. They just continue to fight the pressure instead of taking advantage of it. I don’t think a I’ve seen Buddy cut without the ball all year. Swider has done it several times for easy layups and Symir has also done it. It’s ironic that both came from other programs who actually teach players how to move without the ball. It’s called fundamentals.

Buddy, for whatever reason, is relying on setting himself up with the dribble. Whether it be on the perimeter or when he attacks the paint more so than trying to use off ball movement. I'm sure it's by design, doubt he's going rogue.

Again, I'll say what I said again, he isn't being defended by Kawhi and even last game he had defenders going under picks.

Dunno. Seems like we could throw in some wrinkles like you're saying with Jesse going down to try to recoup some of those high percentage buckets at the rim.

 

[007]

The counter point is that in game 25, the dribblers should be able to recognize the double team and find the roll before getting into a situation they can't get out of. Frank was open off the screen several times Saturday, but the recognition wasn't there or was too late to get him the ball in space. I yelled at the TV every time he was open. Granted, he needed to do a better job flashing, but again, this late in the season, the backup (now starting) center should know exactly what to do. It's not like Frank didn't play before Jesse's injury. Jesse fouled out of nearly every game.
It begs the question about practice and game usage of immediate backups.

Yeah, I hear you. But, I can tell you from experience that when teams hard hedge and then double off of those on ball screens (in this case pick and roll with the 5), the guard ends up with a big in his face and an aggressive defender (usually a guard) pressuring the ball and trying to get him to pick up his dribble. So, this has less to do with Frank "flashing" or the guard "recognizing" the double is coming (they know that it is). The issue, IMO, is more about the guard being able to handle the additional double team pressure, keep his dribble, and then be able to create enough space to pass around/over the 5 who is now also in his face.

The second part of this execution is the 5's ability to perfectly time that roll while also having the footwork and body coordination to be in position to catch the pass AND do something with it. So, it's two fold, but it always starts with the guard. Not having Jesse almost guarantees that the 5s will defend as described above.

As for practice...well it's really difficult to simulate that type of real world pressure with a limited roster.

 

[AZOrange]

Yeah, I hear you. But, I can tell you from experience that when teams hard hedge and then double off of those on ball screens (in this case pick and roll with the 5), the guard ends up with a big in his face and an aggressive defender (usually a guard) pressuring the ball and trying to get him to pick up his dribble. So, this has less to do with Frank "flashing" or the guard "recognizing" the double is coming (they know that it is). The issue, IMO, is more about the guard being able to handle the additional double team pressure, keep his dribble, and then be able to create enough space to pass around/over the 5 who is now also in his face.

The second part of this execution is the 5's ability to perfectly time that roll while also having the footwork and body coordination to be in position to catch the pass AND do something with it. So, it's two fold, but it always starts with the guard. Not having Jesse almost guarantees that the 5s will defend as described above.

As for practice...well it's really difficult to simulate that type of real world pressure with a limited roster.

Yeah and given how bad Buddy is dribbling he has no shot of seeing the screener flash. He misses it every time. I don’t understand how he can’t dribble

 

[dollarbill44]

Yeah, I hear you. But, I can tell you from experience that when teams hard hedge and then double off of those on ball screens (in this case pick and roll with the 5), the guard ends up with a big in his face and an aggressive defender (usually a guard) pressuring the ball and trying to get him to pick up his dribble. So, this has less to do with Frank "flashing" or the guard "recognizing" the double is coming (they know that it is). The issue, IMO, is more about the guard being able to handle the additional double team pressure, keep his dribble, and then be able to create enough space to pass around/over the 5 who is now also in his face.

The second part of this execution is the 5's ability to perfectly time that roll while also having the footwork and body coordination to be in position to catch the pass AND do something with it. So, it's two fold, but it always starts with the guard. Not having Jesse almost guarantees that the 5s will defend as described above.

As for practice...well it's really difficult to simulate that type of real world pressure with a limited roster.

But, if you know it's coming, the other way to get the ball to the 5 is to quickly pass to the wing and he quickly passes in to Frank. It was there a couple of times Saturday. I remember one play in the first half where Buddy saw the double, Frank peeled off and was WIDE open. Buddy passed to the wing (I think it was Jimmy, it might have been Cole) and immediately motioned him to pass to Frank, which he did not. I think he dribbled and lost the ball.
My frustration is we're well into the season and we've had 3 "passable" ( I use that loosely for JBA) centers on the roster all season and this isn't a new development for SU as multiple teams have played us like this all season. If you don't have a deep enough roster to run it 5 on 5, you can run the drill 3 on 3 (PG, C, wing vs 3 defenders) to at least get the gist of it and work on the timing of how quick the recognition, decision and execution has to be.
The other option is that if you don't have the personnel to run it in practice, don't try to run it in a game.

 

[BillSU]

But, if you know it's coming, the other way to get the ball to the 5 is to quickly pass to the wing and he quickly passes in to Frank. It was there a couple of times Saturday. I remember one play in the first half where Buddy saw the double, Frank peeled off and was WIDE open. Buddy passed to the wing (I think it was Jimmy, it might have been Cole) and immediately motioned him to pass to Frank, which he did not. I think he dribbled and lost the ball.
My frustration is we're well into the season and we've had 3 "passable" ( I use that loosely for JBA) centers on the roster all season and this isn't a new development for SU as multiple teams have played us like this all season. If you don't have a deep enough roster to run it 5 on 5, you can run the drill 3 on 3 (PG, C, wing vs 3 defenders) to at least get the gist of it and work on the timing of how quick the recognition, decision and execution has to be.
The other option is that if you don't have the personnel to run it in practice, don't try to run it in a game.

Dollar, I played football as a prep all state QB from N.J. and was offered by Rutgers and a couple of others. Walked on at SU and beat out one of the QB's and they gave me a scholie. I can critique BB a bit but nothing like you. You impress me and seem to know a hell of a lot about the game of basketball. Did you play in HS , college or were you a coach? Or, do you just know the game and have studied it really well?

 

[007]

But, if you know it's coming, the other way to get the ball to the 5 is to quickly pass to the wing and he quickly passes in to Frank. It was there a couple of times Saturday. I remember one play in the first half where Buddy saw the double, Frank peeled off and was WIDE open. Buddy passed to the wing (I think it was Jimmy, it might have been Cole) and immediately motioned him to pass to Frank, which he did not. I think he dribbled and lost the ball.
My frustration is we're well into the season and we've had 3 "passable" ( I use that loosely for JBA) centers on the roster all season and this isn't a new development for SU as multiple teams have played us like this all season. If you don't have a deep enough roster to run it 5 on 5, you can run the drill 3 on 3 (PG, C, wing vs 3 defenders) to at least get the gist of it and work on the timing of how quick the recognition, decision and execution has to be.
The other option is that if you don't have the personnel to run it in practice, don't try to run it in a game.

I'm sure they try to simulate that in practice the way you suggested. I would wonder if they have the athleticism and speed on the roster (in terms of simulating how hard and fast other defenders would be able to play it) in order to drill the offense in a meaningful way. I struggle to wrap my head around, from a coaching perspective, why we don't have a full 10 capable options on the roster.

Jesse got so effective at rolling, positioning, catching and finishing that teams had to change the way they were defending it. Frank is a ways from that, so he is going to need lots of real game reps. In the meantime, teams will attack the guard.

 

[Toga]

His last couple of pressers, since taking responsibility for coaching being part of the issue, have been much better. Noticeably, the player bashing has also stopped.

The details of the strategies on O and D were a welcome change and made sense.

Guessing someone had a conversation with him.

 

[PhatOrange]

There's a difference between missing good shots and taking and missing bad shots.

 

[dollarbill44]

Dollar, I played football as a prep all state QB from N.J. and was offered by Rutgers and a couple of others. Walked on at SU and beat out one of the QB's and they gave me a scholie. I can critique BB a bit but nothing like you. You impress me and seem to know a hell of a lot about the game of basketball. Did you play in HS , college or were you a coach? Or, do you just know the game and have studied it really well?

I played from 4th grade into high school (unfortunately, i was a late bloomer 5'8" and 125 lbs didn’t cut it at a 2200 student school in northern VA). Only intramural in college and pickup basketball after that. But I love basketball and I'm fascinated by the strategy. I soaked up everything I was taught and I had some really good coaching, particularly at the basketball camp I used to go to where we had daily guests who were then and still are household names. I do coach now, but Special Olympics hoops strategy is just slightly different than high school and college. But there's a lot less stress and very rewarding.
I also love talking with people who have played sports at a very high level, like yourself. The different perspectives arw fascinating and the perseverance required for that is universally applicable.

 

[CardiacCuse]

It’s too bad Buddy didn’t get to play with a better roster. His numbers would be solid anyway but not inflated.

well in this case the cause and effect have some overlap

 

[CardiacCuse]

the its not rocket science quote is supposed to be sarcastic (i think)

but its telling too

i think the game plan and strategy is too simpleminded in recent seasons

it really could do with a bit more complexity

 

[CuseFaninVT]

the its not rocket science quote is supposed to be sarcastic (i think)

but its telling too

i think the game plan and strategy is too simpleminded in recent seasons

it really could do with a bit more complexity

JB should never ever ever talk rocket science or epidemic science.

 

[CardiacCuse]

JB should never ever ever talk rocket science or epidemic science.

i mean defensively its pretty on point mostly (the probelm has been personnel not scheme, generally..which is a separate issue) ...the zone is what it is and it does allow the coach to decide how the game will be played

...but the iso offense is just so simple and lazy(?)

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The other issue, of course, is our screening stinks

Has stunk as long as I can remember, at least back to Moten

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Yeah and given how bad Buddy is dribbling he has no shot of seeing the screener flash. He misses it every time. I don’t understand how he can’t dribble

I like Buddy the player and his public persona. Kid has done really well in difficult circumstances. That said, “his behind the back” dribble is like a third grader: I am just gonna turn around to get the ball from the other side. It’s laughable.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I like Buddy the player and his public persona. Kid has done really well in difficult circumstances. That said, “his behind the back” dribble is like a third grader: I am just gonna turn around to get the ball from the other side. It’s laughable.

His regular dribble is high and loose. This is why he so often has to turn his back (and thus loose all vision) to the basket , in order to protect it. It’s a crutch that has limited his development…. And one of the reasons I hate the back down…..because the backdown is a result of overuse of the crutch.

With a more secure handle , he could drive to a mid range level while maintaining full vision and then simply pull up for a mid range if he so desired .. that seldom happens without a solid screen for him

 

[BillSU]

Has stunk as long as I can remember, at least back to Moten

Capt. Thought you'd be interested in some history. Sure wish Moten was on our roster today: From orangehoops.org:

It was not as if Moten wasn't recognized on the court. With is trademark knee high white socks, and silver dollar sized bald spot on the side of his head (due to stress), he was quite visible. He was the Big East Rookie of the Year his freshman season, earning 3rd Team Big East Honors, and helping Syracuse win the Big East Championship. He was a three time 1st Team Big East Selection, putting him in very rare company. By time his career was completed, Moten was the all-time leading scorer in Big East history, along with being the All-time leading scorer in Syracuse history (surpassing Derrick Coleman).

91 - 95

Syracuse would start the year unranked. Superstar Billy Owens left for the NBA a year early as expected, and senior LeRon Ellis moved on to the NBA. Dave Johnson was the only returning proven scorer, and the Orangemen would start four players 6’5” or shorter. It was no surprise that the team would start the year unranked.

Syracuse would start the season with the Adrian 'Red' Autry and Michael Edwards returning in the backcourt, and juniors Mike Hopkins and shot blocking Conrad McRae joining Johnson up front.

Syracuse had a tough time in the season opener against Cornell. The team found out shortly before tip off that McRae was suspended, pending an NCAA appeal, and Junior Dave Siock started in his place The undersized Orangemen were outrebounded in the game 49-41, though Syracuse would pull out the 78-71.

Autry would miss his starting assignment the next three games as he was dealing with health issues with his ailing mother. Coach Jim Boeheim would play around with some different lineups trying to find the right mix. Johnson would start playing well scoring 29 against Florida State and 27 against Eastern Kentucky. McRae’s suspension would be lifted after three games and he would play the rest of the season.

The big surprise for Syracuse was the emergency of Lawrence Moten. The unheralded freshman would get his first start against Florida State and two games later led the team to victory with 21 points, 9 rebounds, and 5 assists over St. Joseph's. His steady play would become a rock for the team all year.

We were in 91: - 92 22-10
92 - 93 20 - 9
93 - 94 23 - 7
94 - 95 20- 10
96 29 - 9​

 

[BillSU]

I played from 4th grade into high school (unfortunately, i was a late bloomer 5'8" and 125 lbs didn’t cut it at a 2200 student school in northern VA). Only intramural in college and pickup basketball after that. But I love basketball and I'm fascinated by the strategy. I soaked up everything I was taught and I had some really good coaching, particularly at the basketball camp I used to go to where we had daily guests who were then and still are household names. I do coach now, but Special Olympics hoops strategy is just slightly different than high school and college. But there's a lot less stress and very rewarding.
I also love talking with people who have played sports at a very high level, like yourself. The different perspectives arw fascinating and the perseverance required for that is universally applicable.

Thank you for your reply. 2200 students ...that's a lot, hope your school did well in sports particularly basketball. I enjoy reading your posts about how you observed each game and what you liked or disliked. I'm just understanding basic stuff and able to see the pick and roll, screens, how they set up other plays, why is Frank standing in the corner alone and no one is throwing the ball to him?

As a Freshman and Soph at Manley BB games I was the spotter for the official scorer as he lived in married student housing along with me and he asked if I'd like to help. Every home game I was right at court side. What an atmosphere. 10,000 screaming Orange fans and great games at Manley, Oranges thrown onto the court especially for Georgetown. The introductions were not kind to the opposing team as the entire crowd as someone was introduced it would be - PA - "and at guard BillSU," crowd, SO WHAT, or worse. it was great.

Never played BB except in eighth grade. Football, track and baseball. Genes came from my father who was an Olympic caliber runner who was captain of the NYU track team. Then he went to Columbia for his masters and ran for them. His specialty was the mile and cross country - a lot of medals.

Ran sprints after trying cross country. The stitches and shin splints hurt too much and even though as a freshman at one of the prep schools I went to I could finish with the varsity and they were on me to finish with them. I chose sprints as a sophomore. As a senior I was the N.J. state champion in the 100 and 200 YD dash. I went to SU when Floyd did and we both ran 9.7 hundreds. What a kind, giving man he was. We used to run sprints to finish up practices and I remember team members asking and yelling at us to slow down because they'd have to stay and do more if one of the assistants thought they weren't giving 100% all the time, which I tried to do to get better - it's the only way you can your workouts have to be all out every time and eventually you can get there if you really want to.

 

[dollarbill44]

Thank you for your reply. 2200 students ...that's a lot, hope your school did well in sports particularly basketball. I enjoy reading your posts about how you observed each game and what you liked or disliked. I'm just getting into the pick and roll screens, what they mean, etc.. As a Freshman and Soph at Manley BB games I was the spotter for the official scorer as he lived in married student housing along with me and he asked if I'd like to help. Every home game I was right at court side. What an atmosphere. 10,000 screaming Orange fans and great games at Manley Oranges and all especially Georgetown.

Never played except in eighth grade. Football, track and baseball. I had a father who was an Olympic caliber runner who was captain of the NYU track team. Then he went to Columbia for his masters and ran for them. His specialty was the mile and cross country - a lot of medals.

Ran sprints after trying cross country the stitches and shin splints hurt too much and even though as a freshman at one of the prep schools I went to I could finish with the varsity and they were on me to finish with them I chose sprints as a sophomore. As a senior I was the N.J. state champion in the 100 and 200 YD dash. I went to SU when Floyd did and we both ran 9.7 hundreds. What a kind, giving man he was. We used to run sprints to finish up practices and I remember team members asking and yelling at us to slow down because they'd have to stay and do more if one of the assistants thought they weren't giving 100%

Thanks! I love stories like this. A 9.7 hundred is really fast!
My HS was actually a fairly average sized school in northern VA (very much ACC territory- blech and the Ewing-era Georgetown - full-on vomit) in the 1980s. In fact, we were quite a bit smaller than two of our rivals, but we competed with mixed success.
The funny thing is, hockey was my first love when I lived in CNY before we moved to VA in '77. I didn't really follow basketball. I remember being really disappointed and confused that we had a hockey game cancelled for the SU final four game. I couldn't understand how that was more important than a peewee game. I don't think I had ever dribbled a basketball until 5th grade. I had to work really hard to get the hang of it. Two things I was always good at was defense and passing, so I could at least contribute while I got my dribbling and shooting up to speed. I was quick, so I got a lot of steals, but I remember missing so many layups my first season. So many. But, I loved to run the fast break. Which was how I came to love SU basketball. The SU I grew up with got out and ran every time they could. The first SU game I saw on TV was a last minute victory at St. John's sealed by a Louis Orr layup. I used to sneak-watch the Big East game of the week with the 9 o'clock start time on Monday nights on Channel 5 in DC (pre-Fox, when it was a local independent channel) in the very early days of the Big East. It seemed every week was an epic battle. I would listen to the BET on the a.m. radio because only the ACCT games were on tv. It pains me to see where the program is right now.

 

[OrangeDW]

Has stunk as long as I can remember, at least back to Moten

Forth?

 

[NorSyr66]

we shot 37% and lost by 12?

it wasn't the shooting that beat us. It was the lack of defense, 11 turnovers and discrepancy in free throws.