Jason Collins: first openly gay athlete in US Sports history

[sabach]

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

NKR1978 is not the person to be asking this question. IMO NKR1978's position is fair. KingOtis is the one you need to ask this question to.

 

[KingOtis]

Sure. You think it is wrong that people support legally treating homosexuals differently because of the fact that they are gay and to the extent that they do support this treatment, they are bigots. (FWIW, I agree with you on this).
However, you simultaneuously think it is acceptable to legally treat unborn children different than children outside of the womb just because of the fact that they are unborn.
Now, you may think that my comparison is apples and oranges, but for those of us who believe that unborn children are entitled to be considered people under the 14th amendment, the comparison is dead on.

I meant the part about what the bible does or doesn't support IYO. I didn't delete enough.

 

[KingOtis]

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

Are you comparing Jason Collins to Ted Bundy?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

However, I can't equate the total abdication of critical thought in favor of an unsubstantiated book promulgating truly pyrhhic morality with an irrational position arising from a de minimis but at least non-zero thought cycle.

Jiminy Christmas, and Millhouse makes fun of how I word things.

 

[sabach]

I meant the part about what the bible does or doesn't support IYO. I didn't delete enough.

Okay. I don't think the Bible supports treating people with a gay orientation or active lifestyle any differently in American society than someone with a straight orientation or lifestyle. As I have said over and over again, I do not oppose gay marriage, gay adoption, gay elected officials, gay pride marches, gay equality in employment and benefits or even gays being in my church and serving therein. That notwithstanding, you still consider me a gay bigot because of my theological position that homosexual acts are sinful. I support your right to think me a bigot for this position even though I disagree with your assesment of me.

 

[KingOtis]

Okay. I don't think the Bible supports treating people with a gay orientation or active lifestyle any differently in American society than someone with a straight orientation or lifestyle. As I have said over and over again, I do not oppose gay marriage, gay adoption, gay elected officials, gay pride marches, gay equality in employment and benefits or even gays being in my church and serving therein. That notwithstanding, you still consider me a gay bigot because of my theological position that homosexual acts are sinful. I support your right to think me a bigot for this position even though I disagree with your assesment of me.

Labels aside, doesn't that mean the bible does support treating homosexuals differently?

 

[sabach]

Labels aside, doesn't that mean the bible does support treating homosexuals differently?

Not in my opinion. Maybe it would be easier if you could tell me how you think the Bible supports treating homosexuals differently. I've already said that I don't believe that homosexuality is a Heaven/Hell issue.

 

[NKR1978]

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

With murder there is a victim.

Two adult males having consensual sex is victimless, so I don't think that's a fair comparison.

But regardless, my point is that there are ways to make a point without being a complete about it.

"Sex outside of wedlock is a sin." That's not offensive at all. In Christian theology, it is a sin, so no argument there.
"You are living in open rebellion of God." Again, much more inflammatory.

Broussard is a professional and someone who understands the power of words. He knew exactly what he was doing and what he was saying and because he's a professional who appears in multiple media platforms, he knew what the outcome would be. I can't draw any other conclusion than Chris Broussard knew exactly what he was saying and he chose rather powerful words in order to make that point. And really, if he believes that strongly that a "lifestyle" is rebellious to God, I don't see how he could subsequently support Collins. It doesn't make sense to me, so I think that Broussard saying he supports Collins was either incredibly disingenuous or an outright lie.

 

[KingOtis]

Not in my opinion. Maybe it would be easier if you could tell me how you think the Bible supports treating homosexuals differently. I've already said that I don't believe that homosexuality is a Heaven/Hell issue.

But the act is considered a sin. That's treating them differently.

 

[sabach]

But the act is considered a sin. That's treating them differently.

If I give a straight person $500.00 and simultaneously give a gay person $500.00 have I treated the two the same or differently?

 

[KingOtis]

If I give a straight person $500.00 and simultaneously give a gay person $500.00 have I treated the two the same or differently?

What does that have to do with anything?

Are you trying to make this about sodomy now?

 

[sabach]

What does that have to do with anything?

Are you trying to make this about sodomy now?

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about with the sodomy comment. Judging someone's treatment of someone else is determined by how you actually treat them. If I give a gay man and straight man both $500.00, there is not a person in the world who would not agree that I have treated them the same, regardless of what my theological position was regarding what either of those men did in the privacy of their own bedroom. I believe it is possible to treat somone with love, respect and equality regardless of what you may think of that person's lifestyle choices and believe that my faith compels me to have this conviction. I suspect you do not believe this is possible. Fair enough.

 

[KingOtis]

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about with the sodomy comment. Judging someone's treatment of someone else is determined by how you actually treat them. If I give a gay man and straight man both $500.00, there is not a person in the world who would not agree that I have treated them the same, regardless of what my theological position was regarding what either of those men did in the privacy of their own bedroom. I believe it is possible to treat somone with love, respect and equality regardless of what you may think of that person's lifestyle choices and believe that my faith compels me to have this conviction. I suspect you do not believe this is possible. Fair enough.

Just because you treat them equally in one area doesn't mean you don't treat them differently in another. Which you do. If you want me to concede that you're not 100% bigoted towards the LGBT community, done. But that wasn't my argument to begin with. My argument is that you're not 100% tolerant, which clearly you're not. There's no way you can say that you are.

 

[sabach]

Just because you treat them equally in one area doesn't mean you don't treat them differently in another. Which you do. If you want me to concede that you're not 100% bigoted towards the LGBT community, done. But that wasn't my argument to begin with. My argument is that you're not 100% tolerant, which clearly you're not. There's no way you can say that you are.

Does that mean that you must reject your position that my faith is a fairy tale in order to tolerate me as a Christian?

 

[KingOtis]

Just came across this article:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/a...h_is_ignored__and_tebow_s_isn_t___culture___/

 

[KingOtis]

Does that mean that you must reject your position that my faith is a fairy tale in order to tolerate me as a Christian?

If you want to say I'm bigoted for that reason, go ahead.

Of course, I'm not saying your faith is a sin. We don't even share the same faith, so I'm not pressuring you to act or believe a certain way in order to get into Heaven either. I'm not doing anything that would prevent you from being you who are. Can you say the same?

 

[sabach]

Just came across this article:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/a...h_is_ignored__and_tebow_s_isn_t___culture___/

Do you really want us to believe you feel sorry for Jason Collins because his faith is ignored when you believe and have stated mockingly on this board that faith in Christ is nothing more than a fairy tale?
The fact of the matter is that Jason Collins is my brother in Christ.

 

[KingOtis]

Do you really want us to believe you feel sorry for Jason Collins because his faith is ignored when you believe and have stated mockingly on this board that faith in Christ is nothing more than a fairy tale?
The fact of the matter is that Jason Collins is my brother in Christ.

I posted the link without comment.

No, Jarron is his brother...and he doesn't judge Jason's behavior.

Since Jason and Jarron don't share your interpretation of the Bible, are they bad Christians?

 

[moqui]

Being religious doesn't give you a free pass to be intolerant towards homosexuals. Chris Broussard is an adult, with a brain, and he can decide for himself what is right and what is wrong.

CTO and Sabach, for example, are Christians, and they both have voiced tolerance and respect for homosexuals. Broussard can do the same if he so chooses. He's chosen to be intolerant.

And in regards to Broussard saying that he supports Collins... if you asked Jason Collins, do you think he would consider Broussard a supporter?

there was nothing "intolerant" about what he said. it was quite the opposite. it was judgmental, but tolerant. people have a right to express their opinions, whether you disagree with them or not. you and those like you are exhibiting more intolerance.

freedom and openness in the marketplace of ideas is the most important thing here. Critical thinking is impossible without it (curious that some in this thread attack religious attitudes as enemies of critical thinking while at the same time seeking to sanitize the marketplace of ideas). Many (not all) are just anti-religious bigots seeking to use this particular issue as a bludgeon.

I am not going to get into this any further because, frankly, this is a "pearls before swine" situation.

 

[KingOtis]

Do you really want us to believe you feel sorry for Jason Collins because his faith is ignored when you believe and have stated mockingly on this board that faith in Christ is nothing more than a fairy tale?
The fact of the matter is that Jason Collins is my brother in Christ.

And just so we're clear, I'm fairly confident that if you told Jason Collins what you think about his behavior to his face, he wouldn't consider you a brother in any way, shape or form. I could be wrong.

 

[sabach]

If you want to say I'm bigoted for that reason, go ahead.

Of course, I'm not saying your faith is a sin. We don't even share the same faith, so I'm not pressuring you to act or believe a certain way in order to get into Heaven either. I'm not doing anything that would prevent you from being you who are. Can you say the same?

IMO, if Jason Collins has received Christ, as he has stated he has, he will be in Heaven when he dies, regardless of his sexual orientation or whether he chooses to act on that orientation during the remainder of his life. For the last time, homosexuality is not a Heaven/Hell issue.
I'm not going to call you a bigot. I just think you have a very different definition of tolerance than most people have. But, as long as you are willing to hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others and acknowledge that by your definition you are an intolerant person when it comes Christians, so be it.

 

[KingOtis]

there was nothing "intolerant" about what he said. it was quite the opposite. it was judgmental, but tolerant.

people have a right to express their opinions, whether you disagree with them or not. you and those like you are exhibiting more intolerance.

I'll say it again: I have very little tolerance for your intolerance.

Saying something is an open rebellion to God doesn't sound very tolerant to me.

 

[KingOtis]

IMO, if Jason Collins has received Christ, as he has stated he has, he will be in Heaven when he dies, regardless of his sexual orientation or whether he chooses to act on that orientation during the remainder of his life. For the last time, homosexuality is not a Heaven/Hell issue.
I'm not going to call you a bigot. I just think you have a very different definition of tolerance than most people have. But, as long as you are willing to hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others and acknowledge that by your definition you are an intolerant person when it comes Christians, so be it.

Define tolerance then.

If you can sin as much as you want, then what's the point?

 

[KingOtis]

I will say this, sabach. You seem open to the idea of the church (or your church) evolving on this issue. Am I wrong?

 

[sabach]

Define tolerance then.

If you can sin as much as you want, then what's the point?

Tolerance does not require that you accept and condone everything someone else believes or does. Tolerance requires that even though you may differ in your beliefs or practices, you respect the other's right to believe or act the way they choose and allow that person to believe or act as they choose. I believe that if Jason Collins's interpretation of the Bible is that homosexual acts are not sin, he is free to believe that and I respect that. I do not agree with every Christian on every issue of doctrine.
As to the sin question, once someone receives Christ, they are forgiven of all sin, past, present and future and as the book of Romans states, "nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ", which means that even ourselves and our sin cannot lose our salvation once we receive Christ. You see, Heaven is not earned by humans but rather is a free gift from God to all who receive His Son whose death on the cross paid the penalty for our sin.