Jason Whitlock: Kobe's narcissism ruined Lakers

[two3zone]

Fun fact, Jordan never won a championship with Pippen and LeBron never won one without Wade and Bosh.

What's your point??

I'm just saying I think the guy is tremendously overrated. Great player, of course, but discussion of him being a top 10 player is just crazy to me.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm just saying I think the guy is tremendously overrated. Great player, of course, but discussion of him being a top 10 player is just crazy to me.

Why? I think top 10 is an absolute given. 12 times NBA 1st or 2nd Team All Defense as well. At worst in his prime he was still averaging 5 assists/5 rebounds per game.

 

[Knicks411]

early 30 year olds saw kobe in his prime. in fact, they are old enough to remember his entire career.

Can confirm, am about to be 32, remember just about everything.

I have to say, the 12 times on first or second team all defense is just a tad too many. He's not in my top ten of all time

 

[two3zone]

Why? I think top 10 is an absolute given. 12 times NBA 1st or 2nd Team All Defense as well. At worst in his prime he was still averaging 5 assists/5 rebounds per game.

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Curry

In the past 20 years alone I'd take over Kobe. He's won 1 MVP award in a year he shouldn't have sniffed it when Lebron went for 30/9/8.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Curry

In the past 20 years alone I'd take over Kobe. He's won 1 MVP award in a year he shouldn't have sniffed it when Lebron went for 30/9/8.

I agree with you in this argument. In his 20 year career he shot under 45% 8 times and turned the ball over 3 times a game for his career. That's ton for a non-PG.

I know a lot of people hate advanced stats, but by Win Shares Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and John Stockton were all better players.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Can confirm, am about to be 32, remember just about everything.

I have to say, the 12 times on first or second team all defense is just a tad too many. He's not in my top ten of all time

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Curry

In the past 20 years alone I'd take over Kobe. He's won 1 MVP award in a year he shouldn't have sniffed it when Lebron went for 30/9/8.

Chris Paul?! Lol. And facts are facts re: All NBA Defense.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I can't believe this is even being argued. It's like Hulk-esque rationale.

 

[jec1521]

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Curry

In the past 20 years alone I'd take over Kobe. He's won 1 MVP award in a year he shouldn't have sniffed it when Lebron went for 30/9/8.

Im not the biggest Kobe fan but the bottom of that list is pretty suspect, especially chris paul.

He is borderline Top 10 all time, at the least.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I agree with you in this argument. In his 20 year career he shot under 45% 8 times and turned the ball over 3 times a game for his career. That's ton for a non-PG.

I know a lot of people hate advanced stats, but by Win Shares Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and John Stockton were all better players.

Jordan also had plenty of seasons of turning it over 3 times per game and more.

 

[Knicks411]

I can't believe this is even being argued. It's like Hulk-esque rationale.

Not having Kobe in your top ten of all time isn't that bad at all. I've got him top 20, probably top 15. But I mean

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Lebron
Wilt
Hakeem
West

Is probably my top ten.

Maybe swap Oscar for West (this isn't in order)

 

[Briancuse]

Not having Kobe in your top ten of all time isn't that bad at all. I've got him top 20, probably top 15. But I mean

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Lebron
Wilt
Hakeem
West

Is probably my top ten.

Maybe swap Oscar for West

I'm not sure I would put Hakeem in the top ten.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think the problem was the lakers paying all that money for the past two seasons. Was Kobe supposed to turn it down??

This is what I love. Who turns that down? And why would you?

 

[SoBeCuse]

Not having Kobe in your top ten of all time isn't that bad at all. I've got him top 20, probably top 15. But I mean

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Lebron
Wilt
Hakeem
West

Is probably my top ten.

Maybe swap Oscar for West (this isn't in order)

Upon further review not being a Top 10 all time is a valid argument. Those are amazing names/careers to swap out. I just think he was underrated in so many facets of the game. People are treating him like Dominique Wilkins or Melo on here. Simply a scorer or chucker. He's Top 15 for sure.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm not sure I would put Hakeem in the top ten.

It's certainly reasonable to say that, he was right at the end of my off the top of my head top ten list.

Kobe's longevity does have to give him some serious points.

This is what I love. Who turns that down? And why would you?

It would be worth exploring some kind of system where guys who spend a lot of time with one team could maybe get paid a lot but only have some of it count against the cap. You look at guys like Duncan or Dirk (I believe Daryl Morey has said Houston had a standing max offer out to Dirk) or even David West who turned down a lot of money, so it's rare, but it does happen.

 

[Briancuse]

It's certainly reasonable to say that, he was right at the end of my off the top of my head top ten list.

Kobe's longevity does have to give him some serious points.



It would be worth exploring some kind of system where guys who spend a lot of time with one team could maybe get paid a lot but only have some of it count against the cap. You look at guys like Duncan or Dirk (I believe Daryl Morey has said Houston had a standing max offer out to Dirk) or even David West who turned down a lot of money, so it's rare, but it does happen.

Hakeem was very good, not once while watching him play did i say he is an all time great. Kobe has to be in the top ten.

 

[Shawn91111]

Hakeem was very good, not once while watching him play did i say he is an all time great. Kobe has to be in the top ten.

 

[OrangeDW]

Fun fact, Kobe teams without Pau Gasol or Shaq have never made it past the first round of the playoffs.

It was a near miracle that those post-Shaq/pre-Gasol mid 2000's teams even made the playoffs. Smush Parker and Kwame Brown were starting for them.

 

[Knicks411]

Hakeem was very good, not once while watching him play did i say he is an all time great. Kobe has to be in the top ten.

David Robinson might fight you on that one.

Hakeem had a 6 year stretch where he averaged 24-13 with 4 blocks and 2 steals per game. Other than that...

 

[OrangeDW]

Why have no high profile free agents signed with the Lakers the last 3 off seasons?

Because all other things being equal(meaning, money) high profile players want to win. The Lakers roster is trash.

If they didn't have the rug pulled out from under them with the Chris Paul trade, they probably would've had no problem bringing in FA's in recent years. Nobody is going there to play with a washed up Kobe and a bunch of scrubs.

Russell, Randle, and Clarkson have promise. As they get more competitive, they'll be able to sign better players in free agency.

 

[OrangeDW]

David Robinson might fight you on that one.

Hakeem had a 6 year stretch where he averaged 24-13 with 4 blocks and 2 steals per game. Other than that...

Hakeem was amazing. Great athlete and highly skilled. Maybe the best center I've ever seen(first seasons I remember, Kareem was old) play. Either him or Shaq.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Jordan also had plenty of seasons of turning it over 3 times per game and more.

Agreed, but he did shoot a lot higher percentage from the field. I think Kobe is a great player just not as great as some people think he is.

 

[OrangeDW]

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Curry

In the past 20 years alone I'd take over Kobe. He's won 1 MVP award in a year he shouldn't have sniffed it when Lebron went for 30/9/8.

I would agree with Lebron and Kareem, and probably Shaq. Duncan is debatable. I'd take Kobe over Malone, Dirk, Wade, and Paul. Curry...I can't think of guys for lists like these until they are at the point in their career where their legacy is pretty much written. He's in his prime, too early for me.

 

[two3zone]

Chris Paul?! Lol. And facts are facts re: All NBA Defense.

Have a tough time putting a shooting guard in the top ten who was a poor three point shooter and can't win without a HOF big.

Kobe was a great great player who played in a large market and it magnified everything he did times 10.

Again, great player and not disputing that, but very overrated.

 

[Knicks411]

I would agree with Lebron and Kareem, and probably Shaq. Duncan is debatable. I'd take Kobe over Malone, Dirk, Wade, and Paul. Curry...I can't think of guys for lists like these until they are at the point in their career where their legacy is pretty much written. He's in his prime, too early for me.

The only one I disagree on is Duncan, I'd take him pretty clearly over Kobe. If for no other reason than Duncan was a much better teammate than Kobe.

On my Hakeem stat line from before, they didn't start tracking blocks and steals till the 70's, here is the list of people who averaged that line over the course of a season:

Hakeem. That's the list. If you lessen it to 22-11.5 3 blocks and 1.5 steals, you get 4 Hakeem seasons and 4 David Robinson seasons

 

[Briancuse]

David Robinson might fight you on that one.

Hakeem had a 6 year stretch where he averaged 24-13 with 4 blocks and 2 steals per game. Other than that...

I can't put him in over Kobe.