JB has quietly become an excellent NCAA tournament coach | Syracusefan.com

JB has quietly become an excellent NCAA tournament coach

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Orangemen

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JB's reputation has always been that of a guy who's team loses early in the tournament. Pretty much every year we are in it we are a popular first round upset pick.

But without much fanfare, JB has been putting together a very strong record over the last 7 years, with a wide variety of teams and players.

2010- sweet 16 loss. But I think everyone here knows this was very likely a final four team and maybe even a NC team with AO.

2012- elite 8. Great run on its own. With melo though, this team is in the finals against Kentucky.

2013- final four. Great run.

2016- another final four, and who knows how far it goes.

That's 4 teams in 7 years that were final four squads, or one lost player away from being final four squads. Imagine if we hadn't lost those guys, and JB was sitting on 4 FF in 7 years. That is izzo, coach k, and calipari numbers.

Bottom line, even without those other FFs, it should be clear to everyone here that JB is suddenly an excellent tournament coach. Maybe it's the zone, maybe it's his mentality, maybe it's his in game tweaks, but he has been great in the tournament.

I love our teams chances this week. And having JB on our sideline is a huge reason why.

I really really hope he does not retire in 2 years. He is coaching the tournament at such a high level right now, he has a chance to add another couple final fours and maybe another NC or two before he calls it a career.
 
He has gotten better as a coach in the tournament. I am not nearly enough of an expert to tell exactly why, but he is better now. 33 years of 1 final four per decade, then 2 in 4 seasons.

Remember after 2012 we thought we lost our chance at a final four in the "Golden Years of Syracuse Basketball" from 09-12? Who would have thought we would make 2 of the next 4. Great stuff.
 
Orangemen said:
Bottom line, even without those other FFs, it should be clear to everyone here that JB is suddenly an excellent tournament coach. Maybe it's the zone, maybe it's his mentality, maybe it's his in game tweaks, but he has been great in the tournament.
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Or he was neither a clown years ago nor a wizard now. Rather the luck is evening out as tends to happen with larger samples.
Sorry I know sports fans don't like that explanation. :noidea:
 
I still get upset thinking about those years we lost our Center. In the game against Virginia I got scared when Tyler Roberson fell down and landed on Malachi's leg under the basket. I thought it was all over...
 
jec1521 said:
He has gotten better as a coach in the tournament. I am not nearly enough of an expert to tell exactly why, but he is better now. 33 years of 1 final four per decade, then 2 in 4 seasons.

Remember after 2012 we thought we lost our chance at a final four in the "Golden Years of Syracuse Basketball" from 09-12? Who would have thought we would make 2 of the next 4. Great stuff.
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we were preseason top 10 in 2013 and 2014... who in the world thought the golden years was over after 2012?!?!

if anything we were shocked that 2015 disaster happened. this was always talked about being a continuous elite run and it would have been had jerami grant (realistic) and/or ennis (unrealistic) stayed.
 
Yes he is doing better. Good for him. Between 84 (the arrival of the Pearl) and 94, he was working with an all NBA team nearly every year. Half of that time he had 3 McAA per team, yet he only made the F4 once. That was bad.

I am pleased with his performance in the past decade, but it still amounts to just one crown in 31 tries (now 32). In a 64 game field, you only need 6 wins in a row to gain the crown. The 32 invites reveal he has been getting the talent. I'll be happy for him if he can get it done one more time before he goes. His coaching moves in the last game shows he is a lot better now. Maybe this is his year.
 
This is pure speculation but I wonder if he has learned anything from the USA teams? He's been doing that for a while now during this great run over the past few years. It would be an interesting question to ask him. See everyone in Houston, go CUUUUUUUUUUSE!!!!
 
kuethstheman said:
Even without Melo, if the OSU game had been officiated like 99.9% of every other game in the history of college basketball, I think we're in the final four.
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THIS.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but - if at some point in the future it was revealed that the NCAA told those officials not to let SU win that game, regardless of what it took, then I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear it.
What a truly god-awful -show that was.
PS - May Aaron Craft burn in 1,000 fires of Hell for all of eternity.
 
CusefanATL said:
we were preseason top 10 in 2013 and 2014... who in the world thought the golden years was over after 2012?!?!

if anything we were shocked that 2015 disaster happened. this was always talked about being a continuous elite run and it would have been had jerami grant (realistic) and/or ennis (unrealistic) stayed.
Expand...

I thought they were over. Preseason 2013 was looking good, but by mid to late January people here were calling for JB to be fired or retire. Oh how quickly we forget.
 
orange2win said:
Yes he is doing better. Good for him. Between 84 (the arrival of the Pearl) and 94, he was working with an all NBA team nearly every year. Half of that time he had 3 McAA per team, yet he only made the F4 once. That was bad.

I am pleased with his performance in the past decade, but it still amounts to just one crown in 31 tries (now 32). In a 64 game field, you only need 6 wins in a row to gain the crown. The 32 invites reveal he has been getting the talent. I'll be happy for him if he can get it done one more time before he goes. His coaching moves in the last game shows he is a lot better now. Maybe this is his year.
Expand...

I've seen this type of post and comment many times over the years. But it is not reality. Check out the list of McDonald's AA's over the years and you'll see we're not remotely close to the blue bloods. If JB had the type of talent of a Duke, North Carolina or Kentucky, he would have been in the FF4 on other occasions and won more than one championship. It takes skill and luck to win a championship and JB has done a hell of a job in his career even though he could have been luckier and did not have the same talent level of the big boys.
 
BuffOrange said:
Or he was neither a clown years ago nor a wizard now. Rather the luck is evening out as tends to happen with larger samples.
Sorry I know sports fans don't like that explanation. :noidea:
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I know it's not fun but I'm in this boat. I can't really speak to anything before '87, but if you take it since that season, it's really not a bad resume at all.

87 -- lose on a last second shot in the title game. Painful but incredible season.
88 -- Loss to Rhode Island. Bad loss
89 -- Loss to Illinois in the Elite 8. Obviously winnable as it was a close game but that was a really good team. No shame in that loss.
90 -- Loss to Minny in the sweet 16. Not a good loss but a sweet 16 ain't terrible.
91 -- Richmond. What can you say. Terrible.
92 -- Loss to Umass, 2nd rd. Cuse a 6, Umass a 3. Not a bad loss.
94 -- Tough loss to a good Mizzou team in the Sweet 16. Fine season.
95 -- About as close as you get to pulling a big upset but it doesn't work out vs. Arkansas.
96 -- title game loss to UK
98 -- Loss to Duke in sweet 16. 1 vs. 5 -- not surprising.
99 -- L to Oklahoma State in Rd. 1. 8/9 game -- not surprising.
00 -- hammered by dominant eventual champion MSU team in sweet 16.
01 -- Second round beatdown by Kansas. Not that surprising, though it was ugly.
03 -- Title
04 -- sweet 16. crappy loss to Alabama but it was a 5/8 game so no major upset and it's still a sweet 16
05 -- Vermont. Brutal.
06 -- 5/12 upset vs. A&M. Bad loss but crazy run through BET to win it and that team may have been entirely spent by that point.
09 -- Loss to OU in the sweet 16. OU plays lights out and runs away with it. Loss to a 2-seed is not shocking.
10 -- L to Butler in Sweet 16. Hurts but Onuaku out and Brad Stevens is a freaking good coach. Not terrible, IMO.
11 -- Loss to 11-seed Marquette. Sucks, but not shocking. Not an ideal matchup.
12 -- OSU loss in elite 8
13 -- Final Four
14 -- L to Dayton. Bad loss but they end up in the elite 8 and have averaged more than 25.5 wins the past three seasons. Hardly shocking.

So JB's resume looks like this:

Terrible losses
88 -- Rhode Island
91 -- Richmond
05 -- Vermont

Not great losses (not inexcusable but you'd like to have back)
90 -- Minny
11 -- Marquette
14 -- Dayton

Losses with asterisks
06 -- A&M (BET title probably took a bunch out of that team)
10 -- Butler (Onuaku)
12 -- OSU (Melo)

Meh
92 -- Umass
99 -- Oklahoma State
01 -- Kansas

Pretty solid runs
89 -- Illinois
94 -- Mizzou
95 -- Nearly take down Arkansas (national runners up)
98 -- Duke loss
00 -- MSU loss
04 -- Alabama (not sure how to rank this one. It sucks but it's not terribly shocking and it's a sweet 16)
09 -- OU sweet 16. Ugly loss, but not crazy.

Final Fours/Titles
87 -- near miss
96 -- out of nowhere
03 -- title
13 -- Sort of out of nowhere
16 -- insane.

So I don't know. I look at a lot of JB's criticism really stemming from the Richmond and Rhode Island losses as well as the fact that his team didn't quite pull too many upsets like we've seen the past few years with knocking off a 1 in IU and then a 1 in UVA this season. Knocking off Kansas in 96 was pretty impressive as well.

But the bottom line is I'd say he's had 14 seasons with a really good run or at least a solid run with a loss to a really good team. He's had three tournaments that weren't exciting but weren't surprisingly bad in any way either (92/99/01).

That leaves 6 NCAA tournaments that have left a distinct impression of underachievement (in terms of pre-tournament expectations). Hard to come up with an excuse for Rhode Island, Richmond or UVM. So those are three stinkers. But I don't know about others here, I wasn't surprised by Dayton in 14 or Marquette (in the least) in 11. Not great losses but I struggle to call them atrocious losses. i think they're losses that happen from time to time in this tournament. Don't really remember Minny but obviously a disappointing loss.

I don't know. I really think JB's overall record is better than people think, at least if you believe that he's lost to some really good teams along the way. I can't help but feel like Richmond and Rhode Island have colored people's perceptions for a long time.
 
orange2win said:
Yes he is doing better. Good for him. Between 84 (the arrival of the Pearl) and 94, he was working with an all NBA team nearly every year. Half of that time he had 3 McAA per team, yet he only made the F4 once. That was bad.

I am pleased with his performance in the past decade, but it still amounts to just one crown in 31 tries (now 32). In a 64 game field, you only need 6 wins in a row to gain the crown. The 32 invites reveal he has been getting the talent. I'll be happy for him if he can get it done one more time before he goes. His coaching moves in the last game shows he is a lot better now. Maybe this is his year.
Expand...

This post is absurd. He's had good talent, there's no question. He's also had some disappointing losses that are hard to explain -- particularly early as you point out. Navy/Minny/Rhode Island/Richmond wasn't a pretty stretch in there.

But pointing to the stretch from 84-94 is cherry picking. I can't really speak to 84-86 (bad Navy loss), but 87 is a title game run, 89 is an elite 8 loss to a really good Illinois team, 94 is a really solid run to the sweet 16. Those are three really solid runs. But if you took 84-96, you'd also have the near miss vs. Arkansas (national runner up) and then a title game run in 96. So if you just shift the time frame up two years to 86-96, you have two title game runs, an elite 8, a sweet 16 and a near=miss vs. Arkansas.

And as for the all-NBA team -- I'm not sure if you're arguing that JB was just simply a bad coach but the seeding and records don't necessarily bare that out for that entire period.

94 -- 4 seed
93 -- banned, 9 losses, maybe a 4/5 seed if they were eligible?
92 -- 6 seed
85 -- 7 seed
84 -- not sure on seed but 18th in the final poll with 9 losses.

So, I don't know. The reality to me seems like there are some coaches who really just seem to thrive on the tournament set-up by either finding a way to win almost every march despite their seed (Izzo, Pitino, K, Calhoun, Brad Stevens in the short time we saw him) or have had enough elite teams to compile a bunch of wins by largely overwhelming teams with talent (K again, Roy Williams, Dean Smith). There may be some guys who end up on those lists (Shaka Smart, etc.) but to me JB is in that next rung down. He's gotten the cuse there enough that the numbers have worked out in his favor a fair percentage of the time. Could his numbers or should his numbers be better? Perhaps, but it's pretty tough to argue that he's really been that much of an underachiever in March.
 
City of Cuse said:
This is pure speculation but I wonder if he has learned anything from the USA teams? He's been doing that for a while now during this great run over the past few years. It would be an interesting question to ask him. See everyone in Houston, go CUUUUUUUUUUSE!!!!
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I think this might be a good question for SCW75 to ask when he calls into the Boeheim show, if he already hasn't.
 
thebigeast44 said:
I've seen this type of post and comment many times over the years. But it is not reality. Check out the list of McDonald's AA's over the years and you'll see we're not remotely close to the blue bloods. If JB had the type of talent of a Duke, North Carolina or Kentucky, he would have been in the FF4 on other occasions and won more than one championship. It takes skill and luck to win a championship and JB has done a hell of a job in his career even though he could have been luckier and did not have the same talent level of the big boys.
Expand...
The reality is, Syracuse has had 20 McDonald's AAs, dook had 69 and UK had 53. It's not even close. JB has done quite well with the talent he has had and if DC makes his free throws or Rony doesn't miss a jam earlier in the game, he has 1 more NC.
 
billsin01 said:
I know it's not fun but I'm in this boat. I can't really speak to anything before '87, but if you take it since that season, it's really not a bad resume at all.

87 -- lose on a last second shot in the title game. Painful but incredible season.
88 -- Loss to Rhode Island. Bad loss
89 -- Loss to Illinois in the Elite 8. Obviously winnable as it was a close game but that was a really good team. No shame in that loss.
90 -- Loss to Minny in the sweet 16. Not a good loss but a sweet 16 ain't terrible.
91 -- Richmond. What can you say. Terrible.
92 -- Loss to Umass, 2nd rd. Cuse a 6, Umass a 3. Not a bad loss.
94 -- Tough loss to a good Mizzou team in the Sweet 16. Fine season.
95 -- About as close as you get to pulling a big upset but it doesn't work out vs. Arkansas.
96 -- title game loss to UK
98 -- Loss to Duke in sweet 16. 1 vs. 5 -- not surprising.
99 -- L to Oklahoma State in Rd. 1. 8/9 game -- not surprising.
00 -- hammered by dominant eventual champion MSU team in sweet 16.
01 -- Second round beatdown by Kansas. Not that surprising, though it was ugly.
03 -- Title
04 -- sweet 16. crappy loss to Alabama but it was a 5/8 game so no major upset and it's still a sweet 16
05 -- Vermont. Brutal.
06 -- 5/12 upset vs. A&M. Bad loss but crazy run through BET to win it and that team may have been entirely spent by that point.
09 -- Loss to OU in the sweet 16. OU plays lights out and runs away with it. Loss to a 2-seed is not shocking.
10 -- L to Butler in Sweet 16. Hurts but Onuaku out and Brad Stevens is a freaking good coach. Not terrible, IMO.
11 -- Loss to 11-seed Marquette. Sucks, but not shocking. Not an ideal matchup.
12 -- OSU loss in elite 8
13 -- Final Four
14 -- L to Dayton. Bad loss but they end up in the elite 8 and have averaged more than 25.5 wins the past three seasons. Hardly shocking.

So JB's resume looks like this:

Terrible losses
88 -- Rhode Island
91 -- Richmond
05 -- Vermont

Not great losses (not inexcusable but you'd like to have back)
90 -- Minny
11 -- Marquette
14 -- Dayton

Losses with asterisks
06 -- A&M (BET title probably took a bunch out of that team)
10 -- Butler (Onuaku)
12 -- OSU (Melo)

Meh
92 -- Umass
99 -- Oklahoma State
01 -- Kansas

Pretty solid runs
89 -- Illinois
94 -- Mizzou
95 -- Nearly take down Arkansas (national runners up)
98 -- Duke loss
00 -- MSU loss
04 -- Alabama (not sure how to rank this one. It sucks but it's not terribly shocking and it's a sweet 16)
09 -- OU sweet 16. Ugly loss, but not crazy.

Final Fours/Titles
87 -- near miss
96 -- out of nowhere
03 -- title
13 -- Sort of out of nowhere
16 -- insane.

So I don't know. I look at a lot of JB's criticism really stemming from the Richmond and Rhode Island losses as well as the fact that his team didn't quite pull too many upsets like we've seen the past few years with knocking off a 1 in IU and then a 1 in UVA this season. Knocking off Kansas in 96 was pretty impressive as well.

But the bottom line is I'd say he's had 14 seasons with a really good run or at least a solid run with a loss to a really good team. He's had three tournaments that weren't exciting but weren't surprisingly bad in any way either (92/99/01).

That leaves 6 NCAA tournaments that have left a distinct impression of underachievement (in terms of pre-tournament expectations). Hard to come up with an excuse for Rhode Island, Richmond or UVM. So those are three stinkers. But I don't know about others here, I wasn't surprised by Dayton in 14 or Marquette (in the least) in 11. Not great losses but I struggle to call them atrocious losses. i think they're losses that happen from time to time in this tournament. Don't really remember Minny but obviously a disappointing loss.

I don't know. I really think JB's overall record is better than people think, at least if you believe that he's lost to some really good teams along the way. I can't help but feel like Richmond and Rhode Island have colored people's perceptions for a long time.
Expand...

Some additional notes regarding those.

Rhode Island - Sherm was sick w the flu.
As we found out w "Stevie Thompson - PG", no matter how much other talent you have, if you don't have an effective PG, you're not going to play as well as you otherwise might have. Sigh.

Richmond - WAAAAY better than their seed. That was more like a 10/2 "upset" - they had a good team for several years prior, and had upset teams in the prior 2 years' tourneys.
Oh, and it was a home game for them.

TAMU - we should never have been a 5.
And GMac was crippled.
The BET run prior makes this result not even matter, frankly.

VT - terrible loss. No 2 ways about it.

As K, Bill Self, and now Izzo can also attest - if you play in enough tournament games, it's inevitable that this will happen to you, at some point.
 
billsin01 said:
I know it's not fun but I'm in this boat. I can't really speak to anything before '87, but if you take it since that season, it's really not a bad resume at all.

87 -- lose on a last second shot in the title game. Painful but incredible season.
88 -- Loss to Rhode Island. Bad loss
89 -- Loss to Illinois in the Elite 8. Obviously winnable as it was a close game but that was a really good team. No shame in that loss.
90 -- Loss to Minny in the sweet 16. Not a good loss but a sweet 16 ain't terrible.
91 -- Richmond. What can you say. Terrible.
92 -- Loss to Umass, 2nd rd. Cuse a 6, Umass a 3. Not a bad loss.
94 -- Tough loss to a good Mizzou team in the Sweet 16. Fine season.
95 -- About as close as you get to pulling a big upset but it doesn't work out vs. Arkansas.
96 -- title game loss to UK
98 -- Loss to Duke in sweet 16. 1 vs. 5 -- not surprising.
99 -- L to Oklahoma State in Rd. 1. 8/9 game -- not surprising.
00 -- hammered by dominant eventual champion MSU team in sweet 16.
01 -- Second round beatdown by Kansas. Not that surprising, though it was ugly.
03 -- Title
04 -- sweet 16. crappy loss to Alabama but it was a 5/8 game so no major upset and it's still a sweet 16
05 -- Vermont. Brutal.
06 -- 5/12 upset vs. A&M. Bad loss but crazy run through BET to win it and that team may have been entirely spent by that point.
09 -- Loss to OU in the sweet 16. OU plays lights out and runs away with it. Loss to a 2-seed is not shocking.
10 -- L to Butler in Sweet 16. Hurts but Onuaku out and Brad Stevens is a freaking good coach. Not terrible, IMO.
11 -- Loss to 11-seed Marquette. Sucks, but not shocking. Not an ideal matchup.
12 -- OSU loss in elite 8
13 -- Final Four
14 -- L to Dayton. Bad loss but they end up in the elite 8 and have averaged more than 25.5 wins the past three seasons. Hardly shocking.

So JB's resume looks like this:

Terrible losses
88 -- Rhode Island
91 -- Richmond
05 -- Vermont

Not great losses (not inexcusable but you'd like to have back)
90 -- Minny
11 -- Marquette
14 -- Dayton

Losses with asterisks
06 -- A&M (BET title probably took a bunch out of that team)
10 -- Butler (Onuaku)
12 -- OSU (Melo)

Meh
92 -- Umass
99 -- Oklahoma State
01 -- Kansas

Pretty solid runs
89 -- Illinois
94 -- Mizzou
95 -- Nearly take down Arkansas (national runners up)
98 -- Duke loss
00 -- MSU loss
04 -- Alabama (not sure how to rank this one. It sucks but it's not terribly shocking and it's a sweet 16)
09 -- OU sweet 16. Ugly loss, but not crazy.

Final Fours/Titles
87 -- near miss
96 -- out of nowhere
03 -- title
13 -- Sort of out of nowhere
16 -- insane.

So I don't know. I look at a lot of JB's criticism really stemming from the Richmond and Rhode Island losses as well as the fact that his team didn't quite pull too many upsets like we've seen the past few years with knocking off a 1 in IU and then a 1 in UVA this season. Knocking off Kansas in 96 was pretty impressive as well.

But the bottom line is I'd say he's had 14 seasons with a really good run or at least a solid run with a loss to a really good team. He's had three tournaments that weren't exciting but weren't surprisingly bad in any way either (92/99/01).

That leaves 6 NCAA tournaments that have left a distinct impression of underachievement (in terms of pre-tournament expectations). Hard to come up with an excuse for Rhode Island, Richmond or UVM. So those are three stinkers. But I don't know about others here, I wasn't surprised by Dayton in 14 or Marquette (in the least) in 11. Not great losses but I struggle to call them atrocious losses. i think they're losses that happen from time to time in this tournament. Don't really remember Minny but obviously a disappointing loss.

I don't know. I really think JB's overall record is better than people think, at least if you believe that he's lost to some really good teams along the way. I can't help but feel like Richmond and Rhode Island have colored people's perceptions for a long time.
Expand...

Agree mostly (and it's good analysis), but the Onuaku injury has taken on a life of its own. Yes, it eliminated us as title favorites. But few at the time used it as an excuse (the pre-game thread looked a lot like the one before the Middle Tennessee State game). Our bracket opened up, with Michigan State suffering an injury to an even more indispensable player. We blew that Butler game with the personnel we had, due to both poor execution by many players and an obstinate, head-scratching coaching strategy (high-low offense, stall, tempo decisions).

I think we've been fine, on the whole, since Richmond. Probably no worse than our peers and better than a lot of them. Everyone's got a Vermont in their recent history. It was 1977-1986 (or even 1991) that biased a lot of people toward Boeheim. His results have improved a ton since then.
 
billsin01 said:
I know it's not fun but I'm in this boat. I can't really speak to anything before '87, but if you take it since that season, it's really not a bad resume at all.

87 -- lose on a last second shot in the title game. Painful but incredible season.
88 -- Loss to Rhode Island. Bad loss
89 -- Loss to Illinois in the Elite 8. Obviously winnable as it was a close game but that was a really good team. No shame in that loss.
90 -- Loss to Minny in the sweet 16. Not a good loss but a sweet 16 ain't terrible.
91 -- Richmond. What can you say. Terrible.
92 -- Loss to Umass, 2nd rd. Cuse a 6, Umass a 3. Not a bad loss.
94 -- Tough loss to a good Mizzou team in the Sweet 16. Fine season.
95 -- About as close as you get to pulling a big upset but it doesn't work out vs. Arkansas.
96 -- title game loss to UK
98 -- Loss to Duke in sweet 16. 1 vs. 5 -- not surprising.
99 -- L to Oklahoma State in Rd. 1. 8/9 game -- not surprising.
00 -- hammered by dominant eventual champion MSU team in sweet 16.
01 -- Second round beatdown by Kansas. Not that surprising, though it was ugly.
03 -- Title
04 -- sweet 16. crappy loss to Alabama but it was a 5/8 game so no major upset and it's still a sweet 16
05 -- Vermont. Brutal.
06 -- 5/12 upset vs. A&M. Bad loss but crazy run through BET to win it and that team may have been entirely spent by that point.
09 -- Loss to OU in the sweet 16. OU plays lights out and runs away with it. Loss to a 2-seed is not shocking.
10 -- L to Butler in Sweet 16. Hurts but Onuaku out and Brad Stevens is a freaking good coach. Not terrible, IMO.
11 -- Loss to 11-seed Marquette. Sucks, but not shocking. Not an ideal matchup.
12 -- OSU loss in elite 8
13 -- Final Four
14 -- L to Dayton. Bad loss but they end up in the elite 8 and have averaged more than 25.5 wins the past three seasons. Hardly shocking.

So JB's resume looks like this:

Terrible losses
88 -- Rhode Island
91 -- Richmond
05 -- Vermont

Not great losses (not inexcusable but you'd like to have back)
90 -- Minny
11 -- Marquette
14 -- Dayton

Losses with asterisks
06 -- A&M (BET title probably took a bunch out of that team)
10 -- Butler (Onuaku)
12 -- OSU (Melo)

Meh
92 -- Umass
99 -- Oklahoma State
01 -- Kansas

Pretty solid runs
89 -- Illinois
94 -- Mizzou
95 -- Nearly take down Arkansas (national runners up)
98 -- Duke loss
00 -- MSU loss
04 -- Alabama (not sure how to rank this one. It sucks but it's not terribly shocking and it's a sweet 16)
09 -- OU sweet 16. Ugly loss, but not crazy.

Final Fours/Titles
87 -- near miss
96 -- out of nowhere
03 -- title
13 -- Sort of out of nowhere
16 -- insane.

So I don't know. I look at a lot of JB's criticism really stemming from the Richmond and Rhode Island losses as well as the fact that his team didn't quite pull too many upsets like we've seen the past few years with knocking off a 1 in IU and then a 1 in UVA this season. Knocking off Kansas in 96 was pretty impressive as well.

But the bottom line is I'd say he's had 14 seasons with a really good run or at least a solid run with a loss to a really good team. He's had three tournaments that weren't exciting but weren't surprisingly bad in any way either (92/99/01).

That leaves 6 NCAA tournaments that have left a distinct impression of underachievement (in terms of pre-tournament expectations). Hard to come up with an excuse for Rhode Island, Richmond or UVM. So those are three stinkers. But I don't know about others here, I wasn't surprised by Dayton in 14 or Marquette (in the least) in 11. Not great losses but I struggle to call them atrocious losses. i think they're losses that happen from time to time in this tournament. Don't really remember Minny but obviously a disappointing loss.

I don't know. I really think JB's overall record is better than people think, at least if you believe that he's lost to some really good teams along the way. I can't help but feel like Richmond and Rhode Island have colored people's perceptions for a long time.
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http://orangehoops.org/Bball.htm

pre 87 was 2 sweet 16s and a lot of 1st and 2nd round losses so it makes his case worse.

but the 5th final 4 on top of the natty speaks volumes for him. he aint got nothin to worry about.
 
721Comstock said:
Some additional notes regarding those.

Rhode Island - Sherm was sick w the flu.
As we found out w "Stevie Thompson - PG", no matter how much other talent you have, if you don't have an effective PG, you're not going to play as well as you otherwise might have. Sigh.

Richmond - WAAAAY better than their seed. That was more like a 10/2 "upset" - they had a good team for several years prior, and had upset teams in the prior 2 years' tourneys.
Oh, and it was a home game for them.

TAMU - we should never have been a 5.
And GMac was crippled.
The BET run prior makes this result not even matter, frankly.

VT - terrible loss. No 2 ways about it.

As K, Bill Self, and now Izzo can also attest - if you play in enough tournament games, it's inevitable that this will happen to you, at some point.
Expand...

Good post. I'm not sure I can quite write the URI or Richmond losses off -- not that I'm suggesting you're doing that. I mean, Richmond had a good program but lost to Duke by 45 the year before beating a loaded Cuse team. So maybe it's not quite as bad a loss but it's still a pretty major upset. URI just pisses me off b/c I can still see tommy penders racing around the court celebrating, which is annoying.

I agree on 06, just didn't want to disingenuously disregard it as technically an upset. But no should have been surprised by that loss. That team was cooked after an incredible BET run (which I was at and am grateful to have witnessed).

Anyway, I just think as a general rule, JB's 'poor tourney record' certainly has been helped by these last two final fours but I'm not sure it was quite as bad as it was made out to be from the 80s through the mid-90s and into the early 2000s.
 
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