Joseph v. Patterson: Who you got?

[Ghost]

Do you continue to force feed Joseph minutes looking toward next year?

Do you play Patterson because the defense seems better, and he's now vowed to never shoot a three again?

What's our best team now, Patterson as a third guard essentially on offense, or Joseph running the PG?

What kind of split would you go with? I say, 75% for Patterson, and 25% for Joseph myself.

Finally, would Brandon Reese (and as a result, BRNVCUSE as well) be better than both of them?

 

[timkay99]

Do you continue to force feed Joseph minutes looking toward next year?

Do you play Patterson because the defense seems better, and he's now vowed to never shoot a three again?

What's our best team now, Patterson as a third guard essentially on offense, or Joseph running the PG?

What kind of split would you go with? I say, 75% for Patterson, and 25% for Joseph myself.

Finally, would Brandon Reese (and as a result, BRNVCUSE as well) be better than both of them?

80 % Joseph, 20 % Patterson.

Joseph needs to keep playing. Especially with no postseason this year.

Joseph has the tools to be very good next year. Just needs to keep getting game experience on defense, IMO.

 

[two3zone]

80 % Joseph, 20 % Patterson. Joseph needs to keep playing. Especially with no postseason this year. Joseph has the tools to be very good next year. Just needs to keep getting game experience on defense, IMO.

This. Patterson shows zero on offense and his defense is incredibly overrated by this board. He's playing because Joseph is worse on D, that doesn't make Patterson good on D.

 

[kjb120]

This. Patterson shows zero on offense and his defense is incredibly overrated by this board. He's playing because Joseph is worse on D, that doesn't make Patterson good on D.

His shooting as we all know is awful but it seems like he actually knows how to run a pick and roll with Rak and sets him up nicely, and he also sets Rak up with some good entry passes. If he decides to drive more and can start finishing I think he could be a decent role player.

 

[Ghost]

His shooting as we all know is awful but it seems like he actually knows how to run a pick and roll with Rak and sets him up nicely, and he also sets Rak up with some good entry passes. If he decides to drive more and can start finishing I think he could be a decent role player.

Yeah - this is more or less my stance.

I might even (gasp) put Joseph on the bench, and tell him when he plays to just get after it, and act like a sparkplug. See if he can play a little looser and get a bit more comfortable out there. He seems lost at the moment - and just like changing defenses, maybe changing his role will provide him with some more freedom. Who knows - the blow to his confidence in losing his starting role could just as easily set him back I suppose.

I do get the argument for playing Joseph for developmental reasons, but overall the team is a lot better with Patterson out there imo. I would give him the bulk the of the minutes. He's more of a basketball player right now - Joseph seems to be stuck at trying to learn a position he's ill-suited for, and not making much progress as a player.

 

[SoBristol]

Admittedly a small sample, but last night the line-up with Ron was plus 8 in his minutes; with Kaleb, minus 6.

Part of the advantage is that Gbinije moves to the point and initiates the offense when Kaleb is out. It seems like the better line-up.

 

[Ghost]

Admittedly a small sample, but last night the line-up with Ron was plus 8 in his minutes; with Kaleb, minus 6.

Part of the advantage is that Gbinije moves to the point and initiates the offense when Kaleb is out. It seems like the better line-up.

Yeah, that rather disturbing trend continues:

Joseph in ACC play: -42

Patterson in ACC play: +35

If Joseph went +50 next game, and Patterson didn't play...well, he'd still be way behind.

 

[pfister1]

80 % Joseph, 20 % Patterson.

Joseph needs to keep playing. Especially with no postseason this year.

Joseph has the tools to be very good next year. Just needs to keep getting game experience on defense, IMO.

So essentially you want us to self impose forfeited wins as well.

 

[Jack Hall]

Do you continue to force feed Joseph minutes looking toward next year?

Do you play Patterson because the defense seems better, and he's now vowed to never shoot a three again?

What's our best team now, Patterson as a third guard essentially on offense, or Joseph running the PG?

What kind of split would you go with? I say, 75% for Patterson, and 25% for Joseph myself.

Finally, would Brandon Reese (and as a result, BRNVCUSE as well) be better than both of them?

The eye test , the plusminus and most importantly JB in crunch time all say Patterson is the better all around player right now. Imo next season could be different

And my guess is RP will take a few 3s in the next few games. Im not sure in the history of D1 ball, a 2guard has ever completely ceased to take jump shots. (I know TC is also a 2 guard , but when G, TC and RP are out there together, we are basically a 3 guard offense w G running the point.)

 

[Jasoncuse]

Is Patterson the worst shooter we've ever had? Or at least is he having the worst shooting season in the 3-ball era (excluding Elvir).

 

[timkay99]

So essentially you want us to self impose forfeited wins as well.

Kaleb getting playing time this year will be much more beneficial to the future of the program as opposed to Ron getting more playing time.

Kaleb has talent, he is just a true frosh playing in a tough ACC. His biggest issue is defensively. He shows flashes offensively, but has hit the freshman wall.

I believe you improve offensively by shooting in a gym and doing other work in the off-season. I believe you improve defensively (especially in our system) by getting game reps and learning how teams try to expose you.

I just think Kaleb getting time and learning his defensive rotations serves the program better.

 

[Jack Hall]

Is Patterson the worst shooter we've ever had? Or at least is he having the worst shooting season in the 3-ball era (excluding Elvir).

I think any judgement of RP in terms of "all time" is incredibly short sighted. He shot 31% from 3 last year. His shooting could return to some degree, just like TCs shooting has come and gone. In terms of his % this season, thats a good question

 

[Trueblue25]

Joseph and its not even close

 

[Ghost]

Joseph and its not even close

Not even close? Why so? For the experience he gains?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Mike G

 

[Ghost]

Mike G

He is our best PG.

 

[AZOrange]

Honest q: will either be significant contributors here? I really thought KJwould improve but he's really regressed.

 

[Ghost]

Honest q: will either be significant contributors here? I really thought KJwould improve but he's really regressed.

Eh, I think we're seeing what we're going to see from Patterson. He's a nice energy guy - but not much more unless his jump shot really comes along...a lot. Stranger things have happened. He sees the floor well, drives a bit, no shot. Okay on defense - pretty active.

I'm not seeing a PG in Joseph, but people I think are pretty decent posters here say they do, so maybe it's in there. I'm hoping it is.

They both seem like back-ups to me though. I'm not seeing a high ceiling on either thus far.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

He is our best PG.

My point

 

[AlaskaSU]

Do you continue to force feed Joseph minutes looking toward next year?

Do you play Patterson because the defense seems better, and he's now vowed to never shoot a three again?

What's our best team now, Patterson as a third guard essentially on offense, or Joseph running the PG?

What kind of split would you go with? I say, 75% for Patterson, and 25% for Joseph myself.

Finally, would Brandon Reese (and as a result, BRNVCUSE as well) be better than both of them?

Brandon, just ask Flynn

 

[shandeezy7]

Patterson's abysmal shooting numbers aside, he really is not as terrible an offensive players as some would have you believe. I think he's far better at creating things off the bounce, can get into the lane and has shown an ability to make exceptional passes in tight spaces, resulting in easy buckets for our bigs.

As others have said, Joseph seems far too tentative and really doesn't seem to know what he's gonna do next when he's making a move. How many passes does he make that result in head slaps from the fan base? He throws balls to guys who, even if they could catch them, would have literally nowhere to go with the ball.

Now to answer your question, I think the two of them should split playing time equally. I still think that both of them have pretty good potential, and think we should continue to develop them for next season and beyond. And who knows - maybe now with nothing to play for but pride, Kaleb can loosen up a little and just play ball.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm hoping that now that we don't have anything to lose that guys can play a bit more free and easy. Joseph's second guessing everything he does. He just needs to play basketball. When he's open, shoot. When there's a lane, drive. When he sees someone open, pass. When he's on defense, move his feet and keep his arms up.

 

[timkay99]

Figured I would look and see how the top frosh PG's are doing statistically (b/c I don't feel like working today). Ranks are ESPN:

# 1 PG (# 4 Overall) Tyus Jones (Duke)
31 min, 11 pts, 42 % FG, 38 % 3pt FG, 5 Ast, 3 Reb, 1 Stl

# 2 PG (# 5 Overall) Emmanuel Mudiay (China)
Dominating last I heard

# 3 PG (# 17 Overall) Joel Berry (North Carolina)
11 min, 3 pts, 40 % FG, 24 % 3pt FG, 1 AST, 1 Reb, 1 Stl

# 4 PG (# 25 Overall) Tyler Ulis (Kentucky)
21 min, 6 pts, 45 % FG, 48 % 3pt FG, 4 Ast, 2 Reb, 1 Stl

# 5 PG (#40 Overall) Quentin Snider (Louisville)
9 min, 2 pts, 29 % FG, 18 % 3pt FG, 1 Ast, 1 Reb, 0 Stl

# 6 PG (#41 Overall) Jordan McLaughlin (USC)
32 min, 12 pts, 34 % FG, 26 % 3pt FG, 5 Ast, 3 Reb, 2 Stl

# 7 PG (# 42 Overall) JaQuan Lyle (Ohio State in 2015)
Drama

# 8 PG (# 45 Overall) Chris Chiozza (Florida)
22 min, 4 pts, 41 % FG, 37 % 3pt FG, 2 Ast, 2 Reb, 1 Stl

# 9 PG (# 50 Overall) Kaleb Joseph (Syracuse)
30 min, 7 pts, 38 % FG, 22 % 3pt FG, 5 Ast, 3 Reb, 1 Stl

Joseph is getting the 3rd most minutes of any frosh PG in the top 50. He actually compares somewhat to Jordan McLaughlin at USC statistically, but is facing better competition (IMO).

I just think we are so used to our G's learning either on the bench (Carter-Williams) or dominating early (Ennis) that we have forgotten what growing pains on the court really look like.

I think this list shows just how hard it is to be a freshman PG getting big minutes.

 

[JOC44]

It all depends on who on the roster JB wants to make way in order to open up a scholarship for Bryant.

 

[wiCuse]

The offense seems to be more fluid with Patterson right now. If there wasn't a post-season ban it would make for a better argument. Joseph needs to play more because his ceiling is much higher.

A better question would be which will happen first? Patterson taking a 3 or a 360 out of control shot by Joseph?