Class of 2019 Ken Evans Jr.

[Capt. Tuttle]

Don’t think we’re done….but they loooooooove Carlos.

I think a big unknown is Chance. Is he healthy? Do they see him as a lead guard?

 

[djcon57]

I’ve only read the last few pages but given the last insights from Dasher I suspect Autry is looking for role players without the ego to play off the bench sharing most of their mins. He doesn’t care about 20 points a game or 40% shooting from 3 or someone that wont pick up the phone unless they’re guaranteed the starting spot at the 1 next year.

He’ll take athletic tough guys who want to play as a team without the drama. Playing hard defense and sharing time across a handful of guards. As some have said a lot more of these guys may show up when they’re not finding the home they hoped in the portal.

This is the opposite of what way too many people want in this thread who continue to whine on and on about offensive stat lines and the latest hot transfer in the portal that will take us to the promised land.

Given the injuries last year and having to babysit all the personalities in that locker room it makes sense. It’s all about depth and roles.

I think it’s fair to point out that this message of “not wanting to baby sit“ and the general theme of those getting messages from within and close to the program is eerily similar to the 2021 offseason.

I understand it’s easier to coach and maintain and build a culture without these types of players. It doesn’t mean necessarily mean success on the basketball court as we saw with the sub 500 season. Talent does matter at some point and we have to hope our prospects break through.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I think it’s fair to point out that this message of “not wanting to baby sit“ and the general theme of those getting messages from within and close to the program is eerily similar to the 2021 offseason.

I understand it’s easier to coach and maintain and build a culture without these types of players. It doesn’t mean necessarily mean success on the basketball court as we saw with the sub 500 season. Talent does matter at some point and we have to hope our prospects break through.

Absolutely. Coaches now also have to specialize in babysitting and fundraising. If they don’t want to adapt then they need to move down a level.

 

[kingtidge]

I’ve only read the last few pages but given the last insights from Dasher I suspect Autry is looking for role players without the ego to play off the bench sharing most of their mins. He doesn’t care about 20 points a game or 40% shooting from 3 or someone that wont pick up the phone unless they’re guaranteed the starting spot at the 1 next year.

He’ll take athletic tough guys who want to play as a team without the drama. Playing hard defense and sharing time across a handful of guards. As some have said a lot more of these guys may show up when they’re not finding the home they hoped in the portal.

This is the opposite of what way too many people want in this thread who continue to whine on and on about offensive stat lines and the latest hot transfer in the portal that will take us to the promised land.

Given the injuries last year and having to babysit all the personalities in that locker room it makes sense. It’s all about depth and roles.

You still need offensive talent and you need that talent to perform.

Otherwise, the recipe you describe above is Tony Bennett's VA team this year... Some of the most unwatchable basketball I've ever seen.

 

[Melancer46]

Don’t think we’re done….but they loooooooove Carlos.

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't any insider knowledge but just watching how Carlos plays, the first thing I said about him is that I think he's the type of player a coach like Autry would love. He's not the most skilled player, but he plays exactly the way basically every coach I've interacted with wants a PG to play like.

 

[Red2003]

You still need offensive talent and you need that talent to perform.

Otherwise, the recipe you describe above is Tony Bennett's VA team this year... Some of the most unwatchable basketball I've ever seen.

Fair point but a little extreme with UVA example. Their offense was Kenpom 200 only ND worse in ACC. We ended the year in the 80's but were up higher many points in the season.

It really is a fundamental coaching decision. As a program does Autry want 5-6 guards splitting time or 3. Does he want the talent all in one person or spread across 2-3 guys.

The fanbase clearly wants the shiny star with the stats. Autry does not want that especially at the 1.

In the NIL Portal world we can't have it both ways. The top guys are not going to come to CNY to share time.

 

[phil77]

Staff now loves Carlos, even though Leffew was the #1 target and we chased him all the way to the end? Seems like a little spin going on here. They may like him but the original plan was for him to come in and play off the bench. That tells me what they really think of Carlos. Now that they are missing on all their point guards they love Carlos and brought him in to start. Actions show while they may like Carlos the player they felt the need to try and upgrade over him.

 

[phil77]

On Evans there is no role here for him in the starting lineup unless they move JJ over to the point and I get the feeling that Red doesn't want that so if Evans is looking to start then we are not a match for him as our wing starts are set with JJ and Bell.

 

[Red2003]

Staff now loves Carlos, even though Leffew was the #1 target and we chased him all the way to the end? Seems like a little spin going on here. They may like him but the original plan was for him to come in and play off the bench. That tells me what they really think of Carlos. Now that they are missing on all their point guards they love Carlos and brought him in to start. Actions show while they may like Carlos the player they felt the need to try and upgrade over him.

I think you’re missing the spin. We could’ve paid for Leffew if we wanted him and felt like getting into a bidding war with Georgia was worth it. We did not want to go that path given the price tag.

I’ll drop another little plot twist on you. His old coach now works for Cuse. What does it say if your old coach says you’re not worth the NIL price tag? Engel didn’t say pay him whatever he wants, he’s worth it. He said let him go there’s better prospects without worrying about a bidding war with Georgia.

 

[Scotch]

I think you’re missing the spin. We could’ve paid for Leffew if we wanted him and felt like getting into a bidding war with Georgia was worth it. We did not want to go that path given the price tag.

I’ll drop another little plot twist on you. His old coach now works for Cuse. What does it say if your old coach says you’re not worth the NIL price tag? Engel didn’t say pay him whatever he wants, he’s worth it. He said let him go there’s better prospects without worrying about a bidding war with Georgia.

I like the cut of Engel’s jib.

 

[djcon57]

He said let him go there’s better prospects without worrying about a bidding war with Georgia.

I think this is fair assuming we see one of these better prospects in a Syracuse uniform. Otherwise, It's the center situation from last year all over again.

 

[jordoo]

I think this is fair assuming we see one of these better prospects in a Syracuse uniform. Otherwise, It's the center situation from last year all over again.

Hard to say while in the middle of the 2nd offseason for a new coach, even if a better option isn't brought in this year. It is a legit concern for me long term however. I feel like there are situations where a team is missing a certain piece that would be worth overpaying for. Structure and overall plan are important but great successes are often won by the bold who take a calculated risk.

 

[RF2044]

So, lots to unpack in this thread. And my post below is initial reactions to some of these disclosures, not shooting the messenger.

• Leffew -- clearly, the staff wanted him. After watching game film, I could see why -- he is a good shooter, he is a nifty ball handler / passer, and he is athletic and quick. I wasn't sure whether he was a point or not, or whether his slender frame would hold up in the ACC. Was also concerned that he didn't have good games against P5 competition. BUT he could play, and he's the type of player -- whether as a starter or a microwave type off the bench. We had a guy like that last year with similar versatility [Copeland], but Leffew was a much better shooter. And we lost him to Georgia because of $$$ considerations.

• Evans -- when news of Leffew committing to Georgia broke, I was disappointed because I wanted to see the staff bring in guys who could flat-out play. Period. Don't worry about traditional position fits, or who's starting over who -- just get them in and let the chips fall where they may. We've faced lots of opponents like that, who have 8-10 guys who might not be better athletes / players than some of our guys, but they just know how to play and get the job done. So when we pivoted to Evans, a conference POY and a similarly terrific shooter like Leffew, I was excited. It seemed to make sense why they wouldn't overbid to get Leffew -- they had a better, more proven option that they were pursuing. Although Evans was even less of a "pure" point than Leffew, but could handle / pass. As mentioned, deep range shooter who was also strong enough to drive and / or score in the paint. To hear that the staff kicked the tires and decided not to get involved seems strange, because unlike Leffew, Evans performed WELL against P5 opposition, having some of his best games -- which implies that he is a good candidate to make the transition playing "up" a level to the ACC. I'm FINE with the coaching staff deciding that Evans isn't a fit, or prioritizing other prospects more. But why not Evans, if they liked Leffew? And if not Evans, then who? Because we still have...

• Depth Constraints -- by my count, we lost 6 players to the portal. We lost two others [Benny / Judah] off last year's squad, who won't be returning. We couldn't even play in the NIT tournament if we'd wanted to, because of all that attrition. That's a lot of shoes to fill, just to field a roster. Now, we all hope that Westry gets healthy, Cuffe is ready for a bigger role, McLeod gets right, etc. But even if all of those question marks get answered favorably, we still need more guys. Shoot -- at center alone, we lost Brown / Hima / Carey / Pattertson -- not exactly a murderers row, but that's 20 fouls, at minimum. Guys like Leffew / Evans, who can provide scoring / shooting / versatility no matter what position they play would go a long way toward fleshing out that bench. But as of right now, we haven't added those types of players. Obviously, Lamkin and Davis are going to play a ton, so it's not like the staff is twiddling their thumbs, but we need a few more guys. And options are now dwindling.

• Carlos -- I like this pickup. We need a true lead guard, even in the modern era of semi-positionless basketball. And I can get behind that adding an experienced starter might make his transition to playing "up" easier. I think he can be a very solid contributor. But I do have to express concern about what has been reported about the staff's expectations for him. Namely, because...

• The coaches say stuff -- The offense is going to be built around Bell. Leffew is the top guy on our board. Carlos is going to be a stud. Patterson was going to be better than Jesse. Etc. A lot of times, it seems like what the staff EXPECTS to happen, doesn't work out the way they expect. I am admittedly a little jaded from the previous HC, who also used to say stuff. But I need to see more from this staff before I take some of these reports at face value -- because until proven otherwise, some of it seems off-target, as if they just don't have their finger on the pulse.

 

[phil77]

I think you’re missing the spin. We could’ve paid for Leffew if we wanted him and felt like getting into a bidding war with Georgia was worth it. We did not want to go that path given the price tag.

I’ll drop another little plot twist on you. His old coach now works for Cuse. What does it say if your old coach says you’re not worth the NIL price tag? Engel didn’t say pay him whatever he wants, he’s worth it. He said let him go there’s better prospects without worrying about a bidding war with Georgia.

Coach this and Coach that. NIL this and NIL that. Leffew was clearly Red's #1 option and Carlos was clearly a backup plan/bench piece. Red didn't close his #1 option and now we are left with a backup plan in Carlos. Of course the coaching staff LOVES Carlos he is the one who is here but their actions told me they aren't in LOVE with Carlos as the lead guard. So if we don't sign anyone else then Red is clearly settling for Carlos as his starting PG but only because he couldn't land anyone better in the portal.

 

[djcon57]

Hard to say while in the middle of the 2nd offseason for a new coach, even if a better option isn't brought in this year. It is a legit concern for me long term however. I feel like there are situations where a team is missing a certain piece that would be worth overpaying for. Structure and overall plan are important but great successes are often won by the bold who take a calculated risk.

100% and I'm not suggesting Leffew or Evans are worth it. But looking back MAYBE Jesse was. I get the whole thing with his family jerking people around with the price tag. And you do have to take a stand at some point. So ultimately, maybe/probably it was the right decision. But it's not crazy to suggest adding Jesse to the team prob would have made that a tourney team.

I think the 2nd year coach part is absolutely fair as well.

 

[jordoo]

100% and I'm not suggesting Leffew or Evans are worth it. But looking back MAYBE Jesse was. I get the whole thing with his family jerking people around with the price tag. And you do have to take a stand at some point. So ultimately, maybe/probably it was the right decision. But it's not crazy to suggest adding Jesse to the team prob would have made that a tourney team.

I think the 2nd year coach part is absolutely fair as well.

Yeah and I think its an easy argument to make that a healthy Jesse in Orange makes us a tourney team. We were really only 2 bad losses away (@BC, FSU, G-Tech take your pick) from being hard to leave out IMO. We were very thin up front personal wise and Jesse would have addressed three area's of weakness. Post Scoring, Shot Blocking and Rebounding.

 

[phil77]

Yeah and I think its an easy argument to make that a healthy Jesse in Orange makes us a tourney team. We were really only 2 bad losses away (@BC, FSU, G-Tech take your pick) from being hard to leave out IMO. We were very thin up front personal wise and Jesse would have addressed three area's of weakness. Post Scoring, Shot Blocking and Rebounding.

And you can also argue that a couple of those blowout losses might not have happened with Jesse which would also help our tournament chances. So if Jesse was the difference for Syracuse between making or missing the tournament then whatever the price tag on Jesse was it would have been worth it from a program perspective.

 

[jordoo]

And you can also argue that a couple of those blowout losses might not have happened with Jesse which would also help our tournament changes. So if Jesse was the difference for Syracuse between making or missing the tournament then whatever the price tag on Jesse was it would have been worth it from a program perspective.

I think its a valid argument, at the very least. I'm not passing negative judgement in retrospect on a first year coach. I'm also not saying letting Leffew walk was a mistake. I'm sayin that I hope Red is learning as he goes with the portal and NIL. I'm saying I hope that when faced with the opportunity to get the right difference maker he is willing to pull the trigger even if we have to overspend.

 

[Red2003]

I think it’s a valid argument, at the very least. I'm not passing negative judgement in retrospect on a first year coach. I'm also not saying letting Leffew walk was a mistake. I'm sayin that I hope Red is learning as he goes with the portal and NIL. I'm saying I hope that when faced with the opportunity to get the right difference maker he is willing to pull the trigger even if we have to overspend.

Well said. In short he has to time the market. Jump too early on a player and we risk missing out on a better prospect later. Wait too long and well then we got problems too.

Not to mention he also has this peanut gallery that has no patience.

It’s going to be damn near impossible to get a top PG in the country here with 5 other Guards on the roster or a #3 center for that matter out of the portal. It’s all about the role and fit for the program.

One thing is for sure a lot of players in the portal are going to feel a lot differently when the musical chairs keep getting pulled off the floor and they don’t have a chair yet.

 

[dasher]

The problem for the coaches was where would it end? Jesse wanted a number. They gave it to him. Then, he came and wanted more, and they gave it to him. Then, he wanted even more. And the coaches decided that the game wouldn't end.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Well said. In short he has to time the market. Jump too early on a player and we risk missing out on a better prospect later. Wait too long and well then we got problems too.

Not to mention he also has this peanut gallery that has no patience.

It’s going to be damn near impossible to get a top PG in the country here with 5 other Guards on the roster or a #3 center for that matter out of the portal. It’s all about the role and fit for the program.

One thing is for sure a lot of players in the portal are going to feel a lot differently when the musical chairs keep getting pulled off the floor and they don’t have a chair yet.

yeah good post...I was thinking maybe after the combine might be a good time to strike. at this point, anyway

thing that worries me is part the "family" culture that JB built and the legacy of that...i.e. red being too loyal to current players instead of going with obvious upgrades in the portal, when available.

im not saying evans is better than JJ...i truly dont know

but what i do know is I am 100% against this narrative that players sign with teams or that coaches pick players for their rosters with pre-decided roles in mind

maybe that is indeed how the SU coaches do it

but Im pretty sure thats not how a school like Duke or UNC does it

when a 5 star player commits to duke he knows he isnt guaranteed playing time and theres a chance he will be stuck on the bench and maybe not even in the rotation...but they still sign up to go there!!!

pretty sure whn brown just defected to duke...he wasnt promised starters minutes


syracuse used to be like that too!!!

just get as much talent as you can and let the chips fall...don't decline players because you "dont have a starters role for them"...esp in this era of zero loyalty from players

maybe the portal players are better than the current player on the roster

if no player will accept a bench role then fine...but I refuse to beleive that

this manner of not watning players because you dont have a role for them is bogus...


its too polite, imo

supposed to be a competition not a family bbq

 

[djcon57]

The problem for the coaches was where would it end? Jesse wanted a number. They gave it to him. Then, he came and wanted more, and they gave it to him. Then, he wanted even more. And the coaches decided that the game wouldn't end.

It ends when the market decides his value and you either say yes or no. They decided it was too much. That's fine. But the end result is what it is.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

yeah good post...I was thinking maybe after the combine might be a good time to strike. at this point, anyway

thing that worries me is part the "family" culture that JB built and the legacy of that...i.e. red being too loyal to current players instead of going with obvious upgrades in the portal, when available.

im not saying evans is better than JJ...i truly dont know

but what i do know is I am 100% against this narrative that players sign with teams or that coaches pick players for their rosters with pre-decided roles in mind

maybe that is indeed how the SU coaches do it

but Im pretty sure thats not how a school like Duke or UNC does it

when a 5 star player commits to duke he knows he isnt guaranteed playing time and theres a chance he will be stuck on the bench and maybe not even in the rotation...but they still sign up to go there!!!

pretty sure whn brown just defected to duke...he wasnt promised starters minutes


syracuse used to be like that too!!!

just get as much talent as you can and let the chips fall...don't decline players because you "dont have a starters role for them"...esp in this era of zero loyalty from players

maybe the portal players are better than the current player on the roster

if no player will accept a bench role then fine...but I refuse to beleive that

this manner of not watning players because you dont have a role for them is bogus...


its too polite, imo

supposed to be a competition not a family bbq

If a player is starting at school A, why transfer to school B if you are not going to start. The money is important, but ultimately playing time is more important. Can’t get to the Association if you don’t see the court. Also, how much would a school pay for a back up

 

[CardiacCuse]

If a player is starting at school A, why transfer to school B if you are not going to start. The money is important, but ultimately playing time is more important. Can’t get to the Association if you don’t see the court. Also, how much would a school pay for a back up

theres 2000 players in the portal...puts a school like syracuse in the drivers seat

there are more players than spots

lower level players are very willing to be bench players on P5 teams

maliq just transferred to duke to be a bench player for them, for example

dakota leffew will be a bench player for georgia

I see all these other programs get good players to be bench options...

baylor had 4 or 5 starting caliber guards when they won the natty, as another example

but it seems theres this culture at syracuse where get good starters and inferior bench players by choice

theres a million excuses why syracuse cant fill out their roster with solid players...but good schools dont seem to have the same problems

 

[dasher]

It ends when the market decides his value and you either say yes or no. They decided it was too much. That's fine. But the end result is what it is.

the point is that it wouldn't end at the last number. WVU would always come up with a new number.