King of the specious arugments

[Stern]

if you take the attitude that March is all that counts, that will be you point of view. I don't. And the 20-30,000 fans that show up at the Dome and the millions that watch all those college basketball game son ESPN don't either. It has always been silly to base your happiness or interest entirely on what happens in a single-elimination playoff at the end of the season.

Does anybody really want college basketball to determine it's champion the way college football does? :noidea::crazy:

That's a straw man argument and a foolish one to make. Football and basketball are 2 totally different sports. One can be played on back to back days the other needs at least 4 days and really a week in between games. Nobody is saying the determining the football final four is better than the basketball tournament. This has nothing to do with the College Football playoff. It has to do with your statement that the NCAA Basketball season isn't watered down. It's totally watered down. And the facts are on my side...

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2013/06/diving-into-college-basketballs-ratings-game/
Television remains a moving target. The NCAA tournament featured some excellent match-ups and actually performed quite well in the ratings. According to Sports Media Watch each individual NCAA game averaged a 2.8 rating and 4.4 million viewers. (Yes, the average postseason game performed better than the BEST regular season game.)

As long as the NCAA’s remain so incredibly popular college basketball will continue to fight against the stigma that it’s a one month race to the title. Bids (and seasons) are made and destroyed November through February, now we just need to figure out a way to get more people to watch.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/201...ratings-numbers-for-most-of-the-games-so-far/
With the men’s college basketball regular season just past the halfway point, here are the ratings for most nationally televised games so far.

To the surprise of presumably few, the college basketball season has not been a huge draw thus far. Of the 316 games on CBS, ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU through last Sunday, only 26 earned at least a 1.0 U.S. rating. Keep in mind this does not include the December 29 Kentucky/Louisville game on CBS, which would likely bring the total to 27.

There are countless other links and examples I could provide. Want me to show ya more as further proof? The college basketball regular season is IGNORED in this country. Nobody watches and nobody cares outside of a few hot-bed pockets (Duke, Syracuse, Kentucky, Louisville...and a couple others.) It is a regional sport from Nov-Feb with a few pockets that actually care. Then it is a 1 month sport come March. This isn't even up for debate. College Basketball has watered down and KILLED it's own regular season!

 

[nd1973]

I agree with John, four is enough.

 

[HOFCeluck]

That's a straw man argument and a foolish one to make. Football and basketball are 2 totally different sports. One can be played on back to back days the other needs at least 4 days and really a week in between games. Nobody is saying the determining the football final four is better than the basketball tournament. This has nothing to do with the College Football playoff. It has to do with your statement that the NCAA Basketball season isn't watered down. It's totally watered down. And the facts are on my side...

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2013/06/diving-into-college-basketballs-ratings-game/
Television remains a moving target. The NCAA tournament featured some excellent match-ups and actually performed quite well in the ratings. According to Sports Media Watch each individual NCAA game averaged a 2.8 rating and 4.4 million viewers. (Yes, the average postseason game performed better than the BEST regular season game.)

As long as the NCAA’s remain so incredibly popular college basketball will continue to fight against the stigma that it’s a one month race to the title. Bids (and seasons) are made and destroyed November through February, now we just need to figure out a way to get more people to watch.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/201...ratings-numbers-for-most-of-the-games-so-far/
With the men’s college basketball regular season just past the halfway point, here are the ratings for most nationally televised games so far.

To the surprise of presumably few, the college basketball season has not been a huge draw thus far. Of the 316 games on CBS, ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU through last Sunday, only 26 earned at least a 1.0 U.S. rating. Keep in mind this does not include the December 29 Kentucky/Louisville game on CBS, which would likely bring the total to 27.

There are countless other links and examples I could provide. Want me to show ya more as further proof? The college basketball regular season is IGNORED in this country. Nobody watches and nobody cares outside of a few hot-bed pockets (Duke, Syracuse, Kentucky, Louisville...and a couple others.) It is a regional sport from Nov-December with a few pockets that actually care. Then it is a 1 month sport come March. This isn't even up for debate. College Basketball has watered down and KILLED it's own regular season!

I pretty much agree. Our personal feelings and passions toward the sport have little bearing. We're a small group of fanatics who post on an internest message board. We're outliers.

 

[SU68]

Saunders position is elitist. 8 teams is not too many. If each of the P5 conferences got an autobid and then the 3 best atlarge teams you have a perfect tournament.
Regular season conference play loses absolutely no importance because each conference game would impact the playoffs and playing a tough nonconference would help get you consideration for one of the 3 at-larges.

I completely disagree. With an eight team playoff, each of the P-5 champions would get an automatic bid with three at-large slots.

This eliminates the incentive for teams to upgrade their strength of schedule to improve their ranking and get rid of their home cupcake games. Right now, some of the SEC teams have eight home games and never have road games except for conference games.

I rather like the controversy that occurs every year over which team gets in and which conference deserves more than one bid.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Georgia Tech may been picked over Michigan State. Michigan State's best wins are over Nebraska, @Penn State, @Maryland, Rutgers vs. Tech's wins over #13 @Georgia, #19 Clemson, @Virginia Tech, @NC State, @Pittsburgh.

I think the committee would pick Georgia Tech or Ole Miss over Michigan State who beat nobody and lost its two tough games.

Just went off the current top 8. After arguing how weak Miss State, and Ohio State's schedules were I somehow missed the fact that Sparty didn't beat anyone worhtwhile. Regardless a 2 loss team wouldn't get dropped for 3 loss Ga Tech

 

[ImperialOrange]

I completely disagree. With an eight team playoff, each of the P-5 champions would get an automatic bid with three at-large slots.

This eliminates the incentive for teams to upgrade their strength of schedule to improve their ranking and get rid of their home cupcake games. Right now, some of the SEC teams have eight home games and never have road games except for conference games.

I rather like the controversy that occurs every year over which team gets in and which conference deserves more than one bid.

I disagree because IF a P5 team loses it's conference championship game they better have a strong resume to fall back on for 1 of the at large bids. If you're going to schedule cupcakes you better be damn sure your winning your conference title game.

I also think the SOS metric needs reworked to incentivize playing other P5 teams vs current w-l vs any d1 team. In the current format 7-5 WVU is worth exactly the same as 7-5 Western Kentucky, UTEP, and Rice. 9-3 Georgia is counted the same as 9-3 Georgia Southern.

 

[Alsacs]

Just went off the current top 8. After arguing how weak Miss State, and Ohio State's schedules were I somehow missed the fact that Sparty didn't beat anyone worhtwhile. Regardless a 2 loss team wouldn't get dropped for 3 loss Ga Tech

I think it would be an interesting debate. I think Ole Miss may have gotten in. Michigan State vs. Baylor is the bowl game I want to see most. Baylor will be playing Ohio State's top opponent and win which will motivate them as OSU got the 4 slot.

 

[ssmorol]

I think we need to have all 5 P5 champs represented. Whether it's 6 w/2 byes, 8, or 12 with 4 byes like the NFL, I don't know what the right answer is!
I also think 64/68 is perfect for basketball...one of the best post season tourney's in existence! But, I do agree that you can start watching college basketball in February...which is kinda what I do. Once the Super Bowl is over, my focus shifts mostly off of football to basketball.
I have a young family. I don't have time to commit to the basketball regular season. I don't even have time to watch all my Sabres games like I used to! I think the ratings reflect similar situations across the country, as Stern shows above!

 

[sufandu]

College Basketball isn't as popular because the sport isn't as popular as football in this country. Also the game isn't as well played as pro basketball. The rules and sloppy play hurt college basketball unless you have an attachment to one or the teams. Kentucky v. Texas was #1 v.#6 and the game was unwatchable.

College Football is a lot more popular because it isn't much different from pro football and the game is exciting. Until basketball becomes more popular and college basketball becomes better played the regular season won't be as popular.

Exactly. Two things have hurt college basketball popularity in the last 20 years or so. The loss of double round robin league scheduling and the explosion of NBA early entrants. A number of rivalries have been lost or diminished with all of the conference changes and the level of play isn't comparable to what it was when more kids stayed in school longer.

The size of the tournament has had nothing to do with it.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I think it would be an interesting debate. I think Ole Miss may have gotten in. Michigan State vs. Baylor is the bowl game I want to see most. Baylor will be playing Ohio State's top opponent and win which will motivate them as OSU got the 4 slot.

I love watching Baylor play... sadly cannot say the same about Michigan State

 

[Cusefan0307]

No power conference should agree to an 8 team playoff unless Notre Dame agrees to join a conference. It basically gives them an opportunity to automatically claim an at large-bid if they go 11-1.

Also, while on the whole College Basketball isn as popular as say the NBA, take a look at the highest rated regular season basketball games last year. A few Syracuse games beat out Regular Season NBA ratings. If you have marquee matchups people will watch, there are just so few and far between in College Basketball.

 

[Alsacs]

Football gets better ratings as well because it is only once week and the games matter so much more. If college basketball was like soccer and one game Tuesday/Wednesday night and one game on Saturday/Sunday the ratings would be huge.

Regular season basketball is over-saturated because all the games are on TV. P5 conferences having autobids and then 3 at-large bids wouldn't kill regular season college football. The teams in contention for playoff bids would play 1 tough OOC game like they do now and then home games, but conference games would become even more important.

The 3+5+5 model might get adopted by the SEC, Big Ten as the well if each P5 conference got an auto-bid. So the top teams could be eligible for the auto-bid. If Alabama-LSU happened twice year once in the regular season and once in a CCG how do college football fans lose?

If they split maybe both would be worthy of the 8 team playoff.

 

[ImperialOrange]

No power conference should agree to an 8 team playoff unless Notre Dame agrees to join a conference. It basically gives them an opportunity to automatically claim an at large-bid if they go 11-1.

Also, while on the whole College Basketball isn as popular as say the NBA, take a look at the highest rated regular season basketball games last year. A few Syracuse games beat out Regular Season NBA ratings. If you have marquee matchups people will watch, there are just so few and far between in College Basketball.

I don't understand that line of thought. ND would be fighting for an at large bid only, P5 schools would be fighting for an auto bid + an at large.

 

[SWC75]

That's a straw man argument and a foolish one to make. Football and basketball are 2 totally different sports. One can be played on back to back days the other needs at least 4 days and really a week in between games. Nobody is saying the determining the football final four is better than the basketball tournament. This has nothing to do with the College Football playoff. It has to do with your statement that the NCAA Basketball season isn't watered down. It's totally watered down. And the facts are on my side...

http://www.nycbuckets.com/2013/06/diving-into-college-basketballs-ratings-game/
Television remains a moving target. The NCAA tournament featured some excellent match-ups and actually performed quite well in the ratings. According to Sports Media Watch each individual NCAA game averaged a 2.8 rating and 4.4 million viewers. (Yes, the average postseason game performed better than the BEST regular season game.)

As long as the NCAA’s remain so incredibly popular college basketball will continue to fight against the stigma that it’s a one month race to the title. Bids (and seasons) are made and destroyed November through February, now we just need to figure out a way to get more people to watch.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/201...ratings-numbers-for-most-of-the-games-so-far/
With the men’s college basketball regular season just past the halfway point, here are the ratings for most nationally televised games so far.

To the surprise of presumably few, the college basketball season has not been a huge draw thus far. Of the 316 games on CBS, ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU through last Sunday, only 26 earned at least a 1.0 U.S. rating. Keep in mind this does not include the December 29 Kentucky/Louisville game on CBS, which would likely bring the total to 27.

There are countless other links and examples I could provide. Want me to show ya more as further proof? The college basketball regular season is IGNORED in this country. Nobody watches and nobody cares outside of a few hot-bed pockets (Duke, Syracuse, Kentucky, Louisville...and a couple others.) It is a regional sport from Nov-Feb with a few pockets that actually care. Then it is a 1 month sport come March. This isn't even up for debate. College Basketball has watered down and KILLED it's own regular season!

You're confusing TV ratings with "meaning". So college basketball doesn't have as many fans nationally as football or professional sports. So what? Are the regular season games meaningless to college basketball fans?

A lot of things besides winning a national championship give games meaning. There are rivalries, some close exciting games, caring aobut your team and hoping they will improve, watching good players play. football and basketball were played for eyars before there were any championships or bowl games. people must have found meaning in them. If you choose to say that what happens in March is all that matters, that's your choice. Not mine.

And how long you have between football games has nothing to do with it. The argument is that a sport is better off with a limited playoff so the regular season will have more meaning. We've found this year that expanding the football playoff gave more regular season games meaning, not less. And even more would have meaning with an 8 team playoff. The tipping point is in a professional league that has 30 teams and 16 of them make the playoffs. It's not when 8 teams out of 125 make the playoffs. D3 has a 32 team playoff in a 242 team division. What did that "kill"?

 

[HOFCeluck]

You're confusing TV ratings with "meaning". So college basketball doesn't have as many fans nationally as football or professional sports. So what? Are the regular season games meaningless to college basketball fans?

A lot of things besides winning a national championship give games meaning. There are rivalries, some close exciting games, caring aobut your team and hoping they will improve, watching good players play. football and basketball were played for eyars before there were any championships or bowl games. people must have found meaning in them. If you choose to say that what happens in March is all that matters, that's your choice. Not mine.

And how long you have between football games has nothing to do with it. The argument is that a sport is better off with a limited playoff so the regular season will have more meaning. We've found this year that expanding the football playoff gave more regular season games meaning, not less. And even more would have meaning with an 8 team playoff. The tipping point is in a professional league that has 30 teams and 16 of them make the playoffs. It's not when 8 teams out of 125 make the playoffs. D3 has a 32 team playoff in a 242 team division. What did that "kill"?

Just curious, why do you think College Ball is out of the national consciousness until March?

 

[sufandu]

Just curious, why do you think College Ball is out of the national consciousness until March?

I don't think he does. That's someone else's argument he is refuting.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't think he does. That's someone else's argument he is refuting.

I see. TBH I don't know what to make of ratings. There are a lot of variables there.

 

[SWC75]

Just curious, why do you think College Ball is out of the national consciousness until March?

I don't.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't.

You don't think there's a discrepancy between college basketball coverage Nov-Feb and March?

Not even twelve hours after the end of that game, there's no mention of Lou/IU on ESPN's home page. Hell I didn't even know they were playing until a couple hrs before tip. Two pretty big brands. And I'm a guy who's radio is almost exclusively tuned to ESPN.

 

[Stern]

You're confusing TV ratings with "meaning".

It's one in the same. If nobody watches, nobody cares and there is no "meaning". Is it a big game with "meaning" in January if it draws a .04 rating? The rating proves the game had no meaning and nobody cared outside of the people in the arena and fans on the university campus of those 2 schools ...which is a minuet number of people in the big picture.

College basketball's regular season has been watered down to the point it has become an after thought across this nation. People pay attention in March and that's a fact. Before March people just don't care and the games have no meaning because nobody is watching them.

Adding more teams to the football playoff of course waters down the regular season. Not debatable. Instead of arguing over who is #1 and #2 you start to argue over who is #8 and #9. Then you go to 16 and argue over who is #16 and #17 when neither of those teams (whether 8, 9, 16, or 17) are probably any good and deserve to be in the playoff anyway. The difference is sport of course matters when determining the playoff. 4 is a solid number for football, I wouldn't go past that for football honestly. I would have had no problem keeping it at 2.

But this notion college basketball hasn't destroyed its regular season is silly. It has killed it to the point it can never come back. It's a 1 month sport. And that 1 month is amazing!

 

[HOFCeluck]

It's one in the same. If nobody watches, nobody cares and there is no "meaning". Is it a big game with "meaning" in January if it draws a .04 rating? The rating proves the game had no meaning and nobody cared outside of the people in the arena and fans on the university campus of those 2 schools ...which is a minuet number of people in the big picture.

College basketball's regular season has been watered down to the point it has become an after thought across this nation. People pay attention in March and that's a fact. Before March people just don't care and the games have no meaning because nobody is watching them.

Adding more teams to the football playoff of course waters down the regular season. Not debatable. Instead of arguing over who is #1 and #2 you start to argue over who is #8 and #9. Then you go to 16 and argue over who is #16 and #17 when neither of those teams (whether 8, 9, 16, or 17) are probably any good and deserve to be in the playoff anyway. The difference is sport of course matters when determining the playoff. 4 is a solid number for football, I wouldn't go past that for football honestly. I would have had no problem keeping it at 2.

But this notion college basketball hasn't destroyed its regular season is silly. It has killed it to the point it can never come back. It's a 1 month sport. And that 1 month is amazing!

I thnk some expansion is good, but there's a point of diminishing returns. Eight is good, 16 is not necessary.

 

[Stern]

I don't.

That's just ignoring the facts. Until the Super Bowl is over most "casual/average" sports fans don't even watch College Basketball (outside of the few hot-pockets like I mentioned.) College Basketball picks up some on the National Stage the Monday after the Super Bowl. Then the masses all begin watching in March.

 

[Stern]

Just curious, why do you think College Ball is out of the national consciousness until March?

I got the answer and its easy. 68 team field for the NCAA Tourney. It's too big. We live in an "ALL OR NOTHING" society. If you don't win it all then your season was a failure. Just the way the modern American Sports Fan thinks and has been trained. If your "school" doesn't make the Tournament then they probably stink anyway and can't win a National Title. So, who cares. Why watch meaningless games in Nov, Dec, Jan...I will just pay attention in March when my school can WIN IT ALL!! And if they can't win it all cause they aren't in the Tournament...then I didn't miss anything this year with my favorite team!

The die-hards (like people on this message bored) and fans in college hoops hot-beds (Ken, Duke, UNC, Syr, L'ville) care about all the games. That's the minority and not the majority. They make up such a small percentage of the viewing public it doesn't even register its so small

 

[HOFCeluck]

I got the answer and its easy. 68 team field for the NCAA Tourney. It's too big. We live in an "ALL OR NOTHING" society. If you don't win it all then your season was a failure. Just the way the modern American Sports Fan thinks and has been trained. If your "school" doesn't make the Tournament then they probably stink anyway and can't win a National Title. So, who cares. Why watch meaningless games in Nov, Dec, Jan...I will just pay attention in March when my school can WIN IT ALL!! And if they can't win it all cause they aren't in the Tournament...then I didn't miss anything this year with my favorite team!

The die-hards (like people on this message bored) and fans in college hoops hot-beds (Ken, Duke, UNC, Syr, L'ville) care about all the games. That's the minority and not the majority. They make up such a small percentage of the viewing public it doesn't even register its so small

I think that's part of it. But I'm one of those die hards and watching has become a chore. The quality of play is just sub par. Probably why I've concurrently become more interested in the NBA.

 

[Delmar]

The albatross of the current bowl system makes a move to 8 teams difficult. Lots of monied interests are opposed. Saunders argument doesn't hold water, though. If Arizona ended its season with successive wins against Alabama, Ohio State, and Florida State then they would be deserving of the national title, and they would have won it on the field. BTW, 'specious' is a great word.