Kudos to Lester ... And a question

[florange44]

I think Lester did a nice job yesterday as we were able to move the ball against a tough defense. A few too many first down dive plays for my taste, but that's just my preference.

We have several plays that worked but we didn't quite finish

-the down the line pass to Paris that was just over thrown
- the slant to Ishmail for 60 yds called back
- the deep ball down the middle to Estime that was overthrown
- the screen to Estime

My question: why didn't he ever try those plays again? It seems like he believes you can't use the same pass play twice but you can use the same run play 20 times. What am I missing?

This has a been standard for Lester all year. We don't seem to go back to pass plays that work.


Florange44

 

[HtownOrange]

Lester is a run first guy, as is Shafer. Both miss the obvious point that the Dome is built for speed. They also miss the fine point that if you can't use the run to set up the pass, do the opposite! That worked great. Mahoney would pass a few times and then we'd get a big run. Running on the first two downs of every set of downs every time makes the kids too easy to defend. Overall, the mix should be roughly 50-50, with the balance shifting to whichever the opposition is weaker at defensing.

I love these coaches but if they are not willing to change the offense, maybe they do need to go. The passing game was screwing with Clemson's head. If Mahoney had connected a few more times, the outcome would have been much different.

 

[PAcuse]

I'm going to use some logic here and I'm sure I'll get beat up for it.
We have to be a run first team, we don't have great WR's or even a good TE. We have to get the other team to over comment to the run so we can try to open up play action or hell even normal passes. Lester might be running the same plays, but they don't work the second I've never watched game film that closely. I get it the dome is built for speed etc etc. You need to WR's for that to work, which we don't. So they use what they have run first and hope it opens up the passing game. I mean look at the stats 8/21 80 yards passing 3.8 avg and a 36.8 QBR. 34 attempts 242 yards rushing 7.1 avg 3 TD. Why they hell wouldn't we keep being a run first team?
/end logic

 

[upperdeck]

clemson is faster at all the skill spots on both sides of the ball. the reason the run worked was doing it enough they over committed and let the QB/rb slip out the backside enough to be effective. we still struggled to pass, the oline collapsed all game and running it so much kept much of the heat off the oline. the QB played great under pressure but the plays were there if executed thats all you can do as a coach is get them in the spots.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm going to use some logic here and I'm sure I'll get beat up for it.
We have to be a run first team, we don't have great WR's or even a good TE. We have to get the other team to over comment to the run so we can try to open up play action or hell even normal passes. Lester might be running the same plays, but they don't work the second I've never watched game film that closely. I get it the dome is built for speed etc etc. You need to WR's for that to work, which we don't. So they use what they have run first and hope it opens up the passing game. I mean look at the stats 8/21 80 yards passing 3.8 avg and a 36.8 QBR. 34 attempts 242 yards rushing 7.1 avg 3 TD. Why they hell wouldn't we keep being a run first team?
/end logic

So... how come we don't have any wide receivers?

 

[upperdeck]

it would be interesting to see what the game would be if you switched the 2 corners and 2 wrs, i dont think out wr make the 2 catches that clemson made and who knows what happens on our deep throws.. the closing speed/size of the 2 clemson safeties is something that would be nice to see some day on our side of the field. undermanned all over the field and hung in tough

 

[PAcuse]

So... how come we don't have any wide receivers?

We've missed on a bunch of the recent recruits. It's above my pay grade to determine as to why we don't.

 

[Crusty]

Trudo's post game remarks explain everything you want to know. As background you can look up defending the triple option and everything you will find stresses "assignment football". In other words do your job, stay in your gap and don't blitz or over pursue. If you are too aggressive you will run past the play or be out if position.

Trudo pointed out that both LSU and Clemson were both penetrating aggressive defenses that were susceptible to the option. This is why Lester ran so many option plays and why we had so many long plays where we were not touched after we got through the LOS. Mahoney was not even touched and virtually walked into the end zone TWICE

If you have wondered why LSU didn't translate to similar performances against lesser defenses it is because of their style. Option does not work as well against " read and react" defenses.

Mahoney is not as good a long passer as Dungey and it takes longer to run those plays. He got pressured pretty good when we ran long developing plays. Lester called a very good game.

 

[KevMonstah]

I have more than one question about Lester's gameplan, but a few definitely popup when reading this ...

"we don't have great WRs" - well, first off, Mahoney is not a good passer, so that doesn't really matter, but
I don't get how you can sit Custis and Enoicy. A 6'5ish, 230ish WR does not need great speed, he just needs
to get his body in between the DB so he can catch it, and SU must not be teaching this, because one would
think this is not a difficult concept to grasp. The passing game does not have to be "hope Estime or Ishmael
can beat their guys, because we have nothing else". For TEs, Parris' drop on that 3rd and 8 ... ugh. If the
posters above are referring to Dunkelberger, I don't see why he doesn't play either. From what I've read at
the syracuse.com site, he was recruited to be a pass catching TE (this is good), but in one of the chats it was
said "he's having trouble picking up blocking" (hey, I don't really care if he's supposed to be the pass catcher;
use one of the stonehands guys as a blocker). Marrone used to make the same comments about some
freshmen RBs: "they haven't figured out the pass blocking yet". Sorry, but I want my exciting and capable
RB out there either running with the ball or out catching a screen, I don't really care that he can't block.
If you need TE blocking, use Moore or Parris, but get the pass catchers out there.

Now for my venting. I do not want to see Zack Mahoney playing or Tim Lester coaching an option-based
offense ever again. I don't believe that a QB who can't throw is any good for a P5 program. It just makes
winning so much more difficult than it has to be. You'll probably beat NCSU and BC with it, because those
two programs are about as inept as SU is this year. And unfortunately for fans, Lester believes that all of
the excess motion and trying to out-think everyone is the way to go, but they're making it too hard. Did
Hackett run this with Nassib? I don't believe so, and I think they could replicate that offense with Dungey
in the coming years and have a lot of success. And if Lester is unwilling to do that, then they ought to get
rid of him.

Oh, can someone please explain to me how I, your casual fan, can sit at the game with my friend, and just
as SU starts their first possession of the second half, and say "Hey, I'll bet they get a delay of game penalty
in this drive", and lo and behold ...

3rd and 23 at SYR 22
(12:10 - 3rd) SYRACUSE Penalty, Delay of Game (TEAM) to the Syrac 17

Have you ever seen a program more prone to commit stupid delay of game / illegal formation penalties
at the most inopportune times?

Kev

 

[CuseOnly]

I have more than one question about Lester's gameplan, but a few definitely popup when reading this ...

"we don't have great WRs" - well, first off, Mahoney is not a good passer, so that doesn't really matter, but
I don't get how you can sit Custis and Enoicy. A 6'5ish, 230ish WR does not need great speed, he just needs
to get his body in between the DB so he can catch it, and SU must not be teaching this, because one would
think this is not a difficult concept to grasp. The passing game does not have to be "hope Estime or Ishmael
can beat their guys, because we have nothing else". For TEs, Parris' drop on that 3rd and 8 ... ugh. If the
posters above are referring to Dunkelberger, I don't see why he doesn't play either. From what I've read at
the syracuse.com site, he was recruited to be a pass catching TE (this is good), but in one of the chats it was
said "he's having trouble picking up blocking" (hey, I don't really care if he's supposed to be the pass catcher;
use one of the stonehands guys as a blocker). Marrone used to make the same comments about some
freshmen RBs: "they haven't figured out the pass blocking yet". Sorry, but I want my exciting and capable
RB out there either running with the ball or out catching a screen, I don't really care that he can't block.
If you need TE blocking, use Moore or Parris, but get the pass catchers out there.

Now for my venting. I do not want to see Zack Mahoney playing or Tim Lester coaching an option-based
offense ever again. I don't believe that a QB who can't throw is any good for a P5 program. It just makes
winning so much more difficult than it has to be. You'll probably beat NCSU and BC with it, because those
two programs are about as inept as SU is this year. And unfortunately for fans, Lester believes that all of
the excess motion and trying to out-think everyone is the way to go, but they're making it too hard. Did
Hackett run this with Nassib? I don't believe so, and I think they could replicate that offense with Dungey
in the coming years and have a lot of success. And if Lester is unwilling to do that, then they ought to get
rid of him.

Oh, can someone please explain to me how I, your casual fan, can sit at the game with my friend, and just
as SU starts their first possession of the second half, and say "Hey, I'll bet they get a delay of game penalty
in this drive", and lo and behold ...

3rd and 23 at SYR 22
(12:10 - 3rd) SYRACUSE Penalty, Delay of Game (TEAM) to the Syrac 17

Have you ever seen a program more prone to commit stupid delay of game / illegal formation penalties
at the most inopportune times?

Kev

This is the least penalized team in the last 15 years, not sure if you knew that.

 

[Gooorange]

I think Lester did a nice job yesterday as we were able to move the ball against a tough defense. A few too many first down dive plays for my taste, but that's just my preference.

We have several plays that worked but we didn't quite finish

-the down the line pass to Paris that was just over thrown
- the slant to Ishmail for 60 yds called back
- the deep ball down the middle to Estime that was overthrown
- the screen to Estime

My question: why didn't he ever try those plays again? It seems like he believes you can't use the same pass play twice but you can use the same run play 20 times. What am I missing?

This has a been standard for Lester all year. We don't seem to go back to pass plays that work.


Florange44

I believe that if you are going to run the option, you have to run the dive play consistently in order to set up everything else. An option offense must keep the interior line honest with the dive play (whether successful or not). So while it was tough to watch the no gain or 1-2 yd gains on 1st down, it is necessary in the option scheme.

 

[Crusty]

I believe that if you are going to run the option, you have to run the dive play consistently in order to set up everything else. An option offense must keep the interior line honest with the dive play (whether successful or not). So while it was tough to watch the no gain or 1-2 yd gains on 1st down, it is necessary in the option scheme.

Amen. Without that you only have a double option. Also, the QB should follow the back through that gap every now and then to give them something else to worry about.