Leo Rautins thinks the college game has deteriorated.

[Dave85]

The NBA would be open to guys coming back to school I think. It would just be the domestic version of the international player draft and stash strategy.

Besides, the ball's in the NCAA's court on that one. The NBA couldn't really say anything if the NCAA says that a player retains their collegiate eligibility even after being drafted. The NBA team would simply retain the player's rights.

That's a really good point. Why would the NCAA not allow players to keep the college eligibility if they do not like where they are drafted, or not drafted? What difference does it make?

 

[Dave85]

I never claimed that the NBA and the one and done rule was not crushing the NCAA. I absolutely agree with that perspective. It really is. A two and done would really help

I initially responded to this comment you made "If it's all about the NBA then why not just take the players out of HS. What argument can you make against it?"

I made several points as to why the NBA prefers the one and done rule over the HS rule. It is why they made the move in 2004 - the fact they made the change is pretty good proof they prefer it No?. And I am of the opinion if it was not for the Players Association and other legalities that they would be fine with the 2 and done as well by now.

You then took issue with the fact that the NBA uses the NCAA. I just pointed out that every pro league uses other leagues for development. I then posted why there are more downward issues between the NBA and the NCAA CB is getting hurt more (lack of compensation (fact). lack of NCAA refusing to let in drafted players play in the NCAA (fact), and an opinion that first round players and teams are learning that they can develop just as well in the NBA as the NCAA (opinion which I supported with facts)

Isn't that the way a message board is supposed to work. You state an opinion, and you make arguments or facts that support the opinion. It doesn't mean the opinion is correct, but your supporting points can still indeed be facts.

If you are going to claim that all my bullet points are opinions, please go ahead and show me which if the following is not a fact.

• gets summer league time against better competition than the NCAA
• preseason court time against better competition than the NCAA,
• Some NBA minutes,
• Extended practice time with assistant coaches who will put in plenty of time with you to work there way up
• At times an integrated D-League schedule of about 10-20 games, whereby it still spends most of the time in the big team. When teams will not practice much for a while, they get sent to the D-League to get minutes.
• better trainers, better facilities, better diets,
• more time to work independently on your strength
• more practice time to work independently on your Skills (Note - the last 3 points are heavily dependent on the commitment and the "relative" maturity of the player.

Onc can still think the NCAA route is better for development as you can become more of the man against inferior players. But it does not mean any of the bullets above are not facts.

You seem like a smart guy who really thinks about his answers. But when you claim your opinions are FACTS is when I just stop taking your post seriously. For example, "better trainers, better facilities, better diets" where the operative word here "better" is purely an opinion word. There's no way I can argue with your "better" because obviously you are more qualified than me to know what are the real facts are and what is purely delusion. Who am I to tell you that your supposed facts may just be opinions. I apologize.

 

[two3zone]

You seem like a smart guy who really thinks about his answers. But when you claim your opinions are FACTS is when I just stop taking your post seriously. For example, "better trainers, better facilities, better diets" where the operative word here "better" is purely an opinion word. There's no way I can argue with your "better" because obviously you are more qualified than me to know what are the real facts are and what is purely delusion. Who am I to tell you that your supposed facts may just be opinions. I apologize.

What you're thinking is an opinion is actually a fact, that's the problem.

 

[Dave85]

What you're thinking is an opinion is actually a fact, that's the problem.

Well, it depends. What is "better" may depend on other factors and values. And also, if you are in the D-league, maybe you would get more playing time in CBB as the main guy. It comes down to a question of values. Maybe you think your values are "better" than mine. Which is exactly my point.

 

[JLine]

My simple minded opinion says let them go whenever they want once they graduate HS. If I can get the same job out of HS, why am I gonna throw away X amount of years of income aside. Some are just looking to make basketball a career obviously.

Would be great to have some system in place that decides what is best for their long-term growth and earnings. But, that's not gonna happen unless we transform into a Utopia. I think all that can be done is having sincere people around them with the player's best interest at heart. Another pipe dream.

Most should get a degree to fall back on, but barring injury they can make plenty overseas for a long time if the NBA doesn't work out. Now just need smart money management. Simple enough. Or if they get hurt, then well that's life and time for a new career. They took the risk not getting a degree, though they could have got hurt anyway.

So many variables. Basically to me, it's their life. It shouldn't be dictated by anyone but themselves. Harsh, I guess. If I wanted to go right to work out of HS, no one was forcing me to go to college for one year. May not get the better job, which is where the NBA comes in here but not exactly to increase the skills of the individual, to me. I say let them go right away. If they go to college, they can leave whenever too. Who knows, I could be way off base. Just think it's their life to live, and their mistakes, or accomplishments to make. Better advisement is all I can see, and not forced upon them.

Then again it's a different animal than other industries so who the hell knows. They're adults, the NBA is their employer so guess they do as they're told. The NBA doesn't care though, let them do as they please. CBB is just frustrating because we think we know what is best for the player, or what we want to see. I think I talked in circles well, that's all.

 

[Dave85]

My simple minded opinion says let them go whenever they want once they graduate HS. If I can get the same job out of HS, why am I gonna throw away X amount of years of income aside. Some are just looking to make basketball a career obviously.

Would be great to have some system in place that decides what is best for their long-term growth and earnings. But, that's not gonna happen unless we transform into a Utopia. I think all that can be done is having sincere people around them with the player's best interest at heart. Another pipe dream.

Most should get a degree to fall back on, but barring injury they can make plenty overseas for a long time if the NBA doesn't work out. Now just need smart money management. Simple enough. Or if they get hurt, then well that's life and time for a new career. They took the risk not getting a degree, though they could have got hurt anyway.

So many variables. Basically to me, it's their life. It shouldn't be dictated by anyone but themselves. Harsh, I guess. If I wanted to go right to work out of HS, no one was forcing me to go to college for one year. May not get the better job, which is where the NBA comes in here but not exactly to increase the skills of the individual, to me. I say let them go right away. If they go to college, they can leave whenever too. Who knows, I could be way off base. Just think it's their life to live, and their mistakes, or accomplishments to make. Better advisement is all I can see, and not forced upon them.

Then again it's a different animal than other industries so who the hell knows. They're adults, the NBA is their employer so guess they do as they're told. The NBA doesn't care though, let them do as they please. CBB is just frustrating because we think we know what is best for the player, or what we want to see. I think I talked in circles well, that's all.

I thought this was a good post but I have few comments. It's not that people who are fans of CBB "think we know what is best for the player". What most people are frustrated about has nothing to do with an individual player. What most people are frustrated about is how the 1-and-done change to CBB has changed CBB. And many people have the opinion that 1-and-done has not been a positive thing for CBB. Personally, I have no problem with players going from HS to the D-League. My preference would be if a player decides to go to college that they play for at least 2 years so the quality of CBB is preserved.

I would also like to see the NCAA get rid of restrictions around players entering the draft and then deciding to return to CBB to complete their eligibility. Why have these NCAA rules? Say a player spends a year or two in the NBA why not allow them to return to college to complete their 2 or 3 years of eligibility?

I would also like to see players who participate in the NCAA tournament get an additional stipend payment just like the colleges get a share of the tournament money. CBB is big business. I would like to see the players get some compensation.

The bottom line is all I care about is the quality of CBB more than just any one player. And I would also like to see players have more options and get some rewards for their efforts and talents. I don't understand why people have such strong opinions about keeping the status quo. I respect the other opinions on this subject but I just can't agree with them if it's at the expense of the quality of CBB.

 

[JLine]

I agree with some of what you suggest, and am definitely frustrated with what the one-and-done has done to CBB. That said, I just don't see it as fair for the players to be forced to stay two years when the money is calling. Say Melo had to stay two years, great, but then he blows out his knee and has an Oden like career.

And definitely is an issue in general, not just one player. I just think that we would like it generalized for all, when circumstances are different for many.

One thing I'm absolutely for is figuring out a way to compensate athletes for all the money they make the NCAA and their University. I just don't know how you differentiate who gets what amount compared to another and do some get none. I've never been one who thought the scholarship is payment enough for the big revenue earning athletes. They directly make money because of their play, personality, etc.

Players coming back after being in the NBA I can't wrap my head around the logistics of that one. They would have an even bigger developmental edge, even if they just played in the D-League. Does the NBA team retain their rights? I assume like an International player, but weird to go up then back down unless they can set up some revolving minor league system that doesn't involve going back to college.

 

[RF2044]

I agree with some of what you suggest, and am definitely frustrated with what the one-and-done has done to CBB. That said, I just don't see it as fair for the players to be forced to stay two years when the money is calling. Say Melo had to stay two years, great, but then he blows out his knee and has an Oden like career.

And definitely is an issue in general, not just one player. I just think that we would like it generalized for all, when circumstances are different for many.

One thing I'm absolutely for is figuring out a way to compensate athletes for all the money they make the NCAA and their University. I just don't know how you differentiate who gets what amount compared to another and do some get none. I've never been one who thought the scholarship is payment enough for the big revenue earning athletes. They directly make money because of their play, personality, etc.

Players coming back after being in the NBA I can't wrap my head around the logistics of that one. They would have an even bigger developmental edge, even if they just played in the D-League. Does the NBA team retain their rights? I assume like an International player, but weird to go up then back down unless they can set up some revolving minor league system that doesn't involve going back to college.

Fab Melo would kill for an "Oden like career."

 

[Dave85]

I agree with some of what you suggest, and am definitely frustrated with what the one-and-done has done to CBB. That said, I just don't see it as fair for the players to be forced to stay two years when the money is calling. Say Melo had to stay two years, great, but then he blows out his knee and has an Oden like career.

And definitely is an issue in general, not just one player. I just think that we would like it generalized for all, when circumstances are different for many.

One thing I'm absolutely for is figuring out a way to compensate athletes for all the money they make the NCAA and their University. I just don't know how you differentiate who gets what amount compared to another and do some get none. I've never been one who thought the scholarship is payment enough for the big revenue earning athletes. They directly make money because of their play, personality, etc.

Players coming back after being in the NBA I can't wrap my head around the logistics of that one. They would have an even bigger developmental edge, even if they just played in the D-League. Does the NBA team retain their rights? I assume like an International player, but weird to go up then back down unless they can set up some revolving minor league system that doesn't involve going back to college.

Say a player washes out of the NBA after 2 years and doesn't get that elusive second contract. I just like the idea that the player has the opportunity to finish out their college career under scholarship. And having more experience players would be great for the quality of CBB.

This one "fair for the players to be forced to stay two years" is the crux of the debate. What is fair for the players may not be good for the quality of CBB. There are many people besides myself who think 1-and-done has not resulted in a positive outcome for CBB. It's funny how some people view fairness. If you could require players to stay 4 years, and then out of fairness, compromise it to be 2 years. Then it's still unfair so you then have to compromise again to 1 year. So why not just take the players out of HS and go right into the D-League? What does playing 1 year in CBB matter? It seems from your point view, the whole discussion is all about 1-and-done players and the NBA. If preserving the quality of CBB was something you valued, how would you compromise? Or, do you believe the quality of CBB is irrelevant and there is no compromise?

 

[JLine]

Fab Melo would kill for an "Oden like career."

Plenty of others who didn't wanna work hard and live up to their potential too, I'm sure. Big guys make it along time even when they're busts, and if they wanna half ass it can live well overseas too. The Melo would have lost multimillions had he been forced to stay and got hurt. If Kwame Brown can make it that long, Fab just really loved Chuck's.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Say a player washes out of the NBA after 2 years and doesn't get that elusive second contract. I just like the idea that the player has the opportunity to finish out their college career under scholarship. And having more experience players would be great for the quality of CBB.

This one "fair for the players to be forced to stay two years" is the crux of the debate. What is fair for the players may not be good for the quality of CBB. There are many people besides myself who think 1-and-done has not resulted in a positive outcome for CBB. It's funny how some people view fairness. If you could require players to stay 4 years, and then out of fairness, compromise it to be 2 years. Then it's still unfair so you then have to compromise again to 1 year. So why not just take the players out of HS and go right into the D-League? What does playing 1 year in CBB matter? It seems from your point view, the whole discussion is all about 1-and-done players and the NBA. If preserving the quality of CBB was something you valued, how would you compromise? Or, do you believe the quality of CBB is irrelevant and there is no compromise?

Why can't they finish with their NBA money, or loans, grants or other financial options.

The way around it is this:
Everyone is eligible to be drafted, once they sign a LOI. There can be no contact between NBA and player or players families, etc. Anything proven is a 1st round pick lost, immediate free agency of the player, and the team is on the hook for the player's salary cap hit and any contract shortfall from the free agency signing.
The NBA team which has the rights to the player pays for the player's scholarship, and must pay the player $1,000.00 a month during school to retain their rights, and buy the player a car.
Each year of college counts some fraction toward free agency, maybe 1/4 of a year.
By September 1 each year, the NBA team advises the college and NCAA if the player will be activated to the NBA roster the following (not upcoming) season, The player's salary is at that point guaranteed, if he opts to go to the league, which he must do by October 1st.
For every year a player academically completes of college, the league gives him a $100,000.00 bonus when he comes to the league. If he has a degree, he gets a $1,000,000.00 bonus.

I am sure there can be tweaks, but its a start.

 

[MSOrange]

Why can't they finish with their NBA money, or loans, grants or other financial options.

The way around it is this:
Everyone is eligible to be drafted, once they sign a LOI. There can be no contact between NBA and player or players families, etc. Anything proven is a 1st round pick lost, immediate free agency of the player, and the team is on the hook for the player's salary cap hit and any contract shortfall from the free agency signing.
The NBA team which has the rights to the player pays for the player's scholarship, and must pay the player $1,000.00 a month during school to retain their rights, and buy the player a car.
Each year of college counts some fraction toward free agency, maybe 1/4 of a year.
By September 1 each year, the NBA team advises the college and NCAA if the player will be activated to the NBA roster the following (not upcoming) season, The player's salary is at that point guaranteed, if he opts to go to the league, which he must do by October 1st.
For every year a player academically completes of college, the league gives him a $100,000.00 bonus when he comes to the league. If he has a degree, he gets a $1,000,000.00 bonus.

I am sure there can be tweaks, but its a start.

Interesting thoughts. I can get behind these ideas easier than letting players come back to play in college after playing in the pros. The line between college and pro is blurry enough but letting then come back to play just totally obliterates the line.

 

[orange79]

Why can't they finish with their NBA money, or loans, grants or other financial options.

The way around it is this:
Everyone is eligible to be drafted, once they sign a LOI. There can be no contact between NBA and player or players families, etc. Anything proven is a 1st round pick lost, immediate free agency of the player, and the team is on the hook for the player's salary cap hit and any contract shortfall from the free agency signing.
The NBA team which has the rights to the player pays for the player's scholarship, and must pay the player $1,000.00 a month during school to retain their rights, and buy the player a car.
Each year of college counts some fraction toward free agency, maybe 1/4 of a year.
By September 1 each year, the NBA team advises the college and NCAA if the player will be activated to the NBA roster the following (not upcoming) season, The player's salary is at that point guaranteed, if he opts to go to the league, which he must do by October 1st.
For every year a player academically completes of college, the league gives him a $100,000.00 bonus when he comes to the league. If he has a degree, he gets a $1,000,000.00 bonus.

I am sure there can be tweaks, but its a start.

Not a bad suggestion. I don't see how the NBA and/or NBAPA agrees to that, unfortunately. And I doubt the NCAA accepts the payments/cars, as that would not meet their definition of 'amateurs'.

 

[JLine]

Say a player washes out of the NBA after 2 years and doesn't get that elusive second contract. I just like the idea that the player has the opportunity to finish out their college career under scholarship. And having more experience players would be great for the quality of CBB.

This one "fair for the players to be forced to stay two years" is the crux of the debate. What is fair for the players may not be good for the quality of CBB. There are many people besides myself who think 1-and-done has not resulted in a positive outcome for CBB. It's funny how some people view fairness. If you could require players to stay 4 years, and then out of fairness, compromise it to be 2 years. Then it's still unfair so you then have to compromise again to 1 year. So why not just take the players out of HS and go right into the D-League? What does playing 1 year in CBB matter? It seems from your point view, the whole discussion is all about 1-and-done players and the NBA. If preserving the quality of CBB was something you valued, how would you compromise? Or, do you believe the quality of CBB is irrelevant and there is no compromise?

I don't think there's a perfect solution, and basically look at the athletes as employees if that's the route they want to go. I'm not sure where the right to force them to put aside earnings is logical, just because the quality of CBB suffers or they may not get a second contract. They may not get that contract because of leaving early, or because they stayed too long. I'd assume Paulie Harris would have liked that lottery pick contract out of HS. Can argue in circles, all the opinions on what everyone thinks is best for CBB. But, I don't think it's fair to tell multiple players capable of making 6 figures what's best for them. And the diminishing quality of CBB is completely embellished, IMO.


I'll never be on board with a player going pro, then coming back to school. Would be fun to see some players come back and completely outclass so many players. Eh, no need for me to comment more on that one. Agree to disagree.

 

[JLine]

And I'm all for HS to Pro, so not sure where you're going with that. I just think if they do go to school, they shouldn't be stuck for another year if they felt ready or were an obvious top pick. Or if they wanted to go play in Bangladesh.

CBB isn't scripted for our entertainment, though it sure is great a lot of the time. These are people who want to do what they feel best for themselves, and elite players are working towards a career. Let's make them go straight to the league if they're not gonna give us two years.

Seems so pointless to argue over a pool of players lives, and our perception of CBB quality, selfishly. They should stay for the fan. The NFL makes sense, at least. Physical maturity is important. Basketball has 10 year old superstars, and a 160 pound MVP.

No more child actors, musicians, performers in general.

 

[Dave85]

Not a bad suggestion. I don't see how the NBA and/or NBAPA agrees to that, unfortunately. And I doubt the NCAA accepts the payments/cars, as that would not meet their definition of 'amateurs'.

It's really weird, what difference does "amateur" make in the world?

 

[Dave85]

I don't think there's a perfect solution, and basically look at the athletes as employees if that's the route they want to go. I'm not sure where the right to force them to put aside earnings is logical, just because the quality of CBB suffers or they may not get a second contract. They may not get that contract because of leaving early, or because they stayed too long. I'd assume Paulie Harris would have liked that lottery pick contract out of HS. Can argue in circles, all the opinions on what everyone thinks is best for CBB. But, I don't think it's fair to tell multiple players capable of making 6 figures what's best for them. And the diminishing quality of CBB is completely embellished, IMO.


I'll never be on board with a player going pro, then coming back to school. Would be fun to see some players come back and completely outclass so many players. Eh, no need for me to comment more on that one. Agree to disagree.

Better competition will make all of CBB better. I like the idea of players coming back to finish their degrees under scholarship and playing. The NCAA creates arbitrary road blocks that have absolutely no meaning in the world other than their own bureaucracy. Give the players choices. Give the fans better CBB players. It's all good. What a great message it will be when announcers say "Joe Schmo decided to return to college to finish his eligibility and get a degree." If it's all about the players then why not? Oh, it's not about the players. It's about money and nothing else? The current system is like the Soviet Union. You just know it's messed up and it's not going to last.

 

[JLine]

The NCAA is awful, for sure. Players coming back for their degree would be great, and should be highly encouraged. Maybe a system in order for them to do so while going professional. Though that is risky, I suppose. Just don't see them coming back to play, but agree with you on most points. The players make their choice to go, and weren't forced, so I don't believe they should get a mulligan for their poor judgement. They need to find a way to educate them while in school. Your point on eligibility is interesting, the more I think about it. Just to me, when you give up your amateur status, I think you're locked in. Go pro and play better competition while training to get bigger, and better. Then you throw the money in, and them coming back to school to play just sounds like a headache with issues imminent. Getting a degree is great, not sure how fair that even is to other students if it's on a quasi scholarship after they left.

 

[Briancuse]

Fab Melo would kill for an "Oden like career."

I don't think he would care enough, he would kill for another night at Chucks.