Let’s forget Talent and NIL for a minute

[Chip]

If I send you to the store to buy me a six-pack of Amstel Light, and you come back with Keystone Light, is that a talent issue or a coaching issue?

It means I think you deserve bottled beer taste in a can.

 

[Scooch]

One of two problems and both lead to a problem with Red. It can't be anything else

-One he is coaching well and getting everything across crystal clear the entire team understands him everyone is on the same page AND THE TEAM JUST REFUSES TO LISTEN. This means from day 1 the team had 0 respect for RED as a head coach. This is his hand-picked team and they don't respect his coaching or leadership. Big negative against Red.

-Two he is trying to coach but he can't relay his thoughts or what he wants his players to do in a way his players all understand which leads to constant confusion. IF THIS IS THE PROBLEM THEN RED SHOULD RETIRE NOW. He can never get this back. He may be a nice guy and a recruiter and can connect on a personal level but if he can't get the technical side of coaching translated to his players then he will never be a head coach. This is also why first-time head coaches often start at lower levels so they learn how to do this.

Both are massive RED FLAGS and are something that I don't think Red can turn around in one off-season.

There's a third possibility... that Autry is at least an adequate coach with players who are incapable of executing what he's teaching and game planning.

Of course, this roster is entirely his, outside of Bell, so that possibility reinforces the notion that he's lousy at player evaluation and roster construction.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

It's not?? Huh??

That thing... where you show everyone you're clueless and desperately clutching for a convenient excuse...

You're doing it again.

If you don't believe me, catch a Siena game. The roster is bereft of talent, the NIL isn't even in the same universe as SU, and yet the intensity they bring could not be more different. It almost looks like the two teams are being taught to play by different rules of the game.

But then, I've never seen GMac high-fiving players after dogging it on D.

You can pay for talent, but the effort factor is all on the coaching staff.

 

[Chip]

This is it exactly
They have to show me that they have any idea what to do fundamentally
I'm open to the idea that NIL is something that needs to be addressed
But this offense where people stand around is separate from that
This defense where everyone keeps going under screens
Basic stuff
It's so obvious he's gotta go but they have a nobody with no leverage a ridiculous contact

What was red going to do if they low-ball him? Go to rutgers-newark?

If you think about it, this is an extension of several years of coaching under Boeheim. Offensive sets that so often start and end with hero ball. And trying to change the defense from zone to M2M when you've been an assistant on a team that only played zone for your 13 years there.

The zone was JB's X factor. Switching to M2M may very well be Red's demise.

 

[phil77]

There's a third possibility... that Autry is at least an adequate coach with players who are incapable of executing what he's teaching and game planning.

Of course, this roster is entirely his, outside of Bell, so that possibility reinforces the notion that he's lousy at player evaluation and roster construction.

Any coach worth a darn can get a team to play basic M2M principles, give 100% effort, and run a basic high school motion offense.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Doesn’t matter you do it to prove the point.

What would dale brown do? Exactly.

 

[jdubs30]

There's a third possibility... that Autry is at least an adequate coach with players who are incapable of executing what he's teaching and game planning.

Of course, this roster is entirely his, outside of Bell, so that possibility reinforces the notion that he's lousy at player evaluation and roster construction.

Red has been around JJ and Bell and chose to bring them back and make them focal points. He should know them as players. Neither of them have ever improved on defense.

 

[sufan59]

We have a team full of players who can't or won't play defense. No intensity, no toughness and no mindset. Your words.

Isn't that the definition of a talent issue?

I have no idea what we're teaching these guys in practice, but it's pretty obvious they're not doing it.

If I send you to the store to buy me a six-pack of Amstel Light, and you come back with Keystone Light, is that a talent issue or a coaching issue?

Using your beer analogy in a little unrelated fashion. The Amstel light might taste better on its own vs a Keystone light. But a coach is paid millions to make Chili. A good coach can overcome using lower quality beer to make a good chili. Maybe the same chili tastes better with Amstel over Keystone, but the drop off should not be significant. Just because you’re making a wagyu burger over an angus beef burger doesn’t mean the angus beef burger can’t be good or better if the chef cooking it is a better chef. Maybe not reach the ceiling of the wagyu burger, but still be a pretty good burger.

 

[Scooch]

Any coach worth a darn can get a team to play basic M2M principles, give 100% effort, and run a basic high school motion offense.

My son is nearing the end of his high school hockey season. The team has a bad record, 5-13, but they've actually made big improvements as a program. Most of the losses were competitive, and a couple to highly ranked teams in OT. You can see many kids getting better as the season has gone along. My son's a senior, but I think next year the team will be at least .500 level, which is an accomplishment since they play in a meat grinder of a conference.

I say this because, among many other things, the lack of improvement in just about every area of SU hoops during this season is very concerning. A dreadful Miami team just shot 55% against us. Game one vs. LeMoyne? They shot 49%. The loss to Georgetown... 48%. The loss to FSU... 53%.

25 games into the season and nothing and no one is getting better.

 

[Col. Bleep]

We have no culture/identity.

That is the issue.

What does Syracuse basketball stand for?

Right now it stands for no defense and poor offense.
Never thought we'd see it...but the Orange are a joke.

The culture must change.
Then everyone can look at NIL money and recruiting and every other variable.

 

[SwagSocks]

I think that's fair. It is hard to say definitively how many wins the injuries to Starling and Freeman have cost us.

We were 6-8 in the games Freeman played this season, including some bad losses to ND and G'town.

Meanwhile we were 4-3 in the games where Starling and Freeman played together, including a loss to FSU.

So maybe we'd be a couple games better with those guys fully healthy?

I won't give them any breaks for the PG situation. The staff owns that. They targeted a kid from GA, even hired his college coach, and he went to UGA for $200K more. That's just a bad evaluation and a worse close on the deal, IMHO.

Teams get injuries. I hate all these "ifs". Look at West Virginia and all their injuries for example. Just shows it is a poorly constructed roster ( which falls on who? Red.) that has lack of depth...and or, not developing players so they can step in a fill the role when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

There's a third possibility... that Autry is at least an adequate coach with players who are incapable of executing what he's teaching and game planning.

Of course, this roster is entirely his, outside of Bell, so that possibility reinforces the notion that he's lousy at player evaluation and roster construction.

Kline was hired AFTER we brought in Eddie, Jyare, Lucas, and Jaquan from the portal.

Sounds like Red realized he needed the help.

I'd really like to see what Kline can accomplish out of the portal this offseason with Melo's checkbook.

 

[Scooch]

If you think about it, this is an extension of several years of coaching under Boeheim. Offensive sets that so often start and end with hero ball. And trying to change the defense from zone to M2M when you've been an assistant on a team that only played zone for your 13 years there.

The zone was JB's X factor. Switching to M2M may very well be Red's demise.

What's bizarre is that during the waning years of the Boeheim era folks said Autry knew the program had to modernize. That we had to run a more complex offense and that defense had to be more man with more pressure.

I figured last year was a mulligan since it was still largely JB's roster. But this season? It's Autry's roster almost entirely and we're still running an indecipherable system on both ends of the court.

I really don't get it.

 

[Cuse99&01]

My son is nearing the end of his high school hockey season. The team has a bad record, 5-13, but they've actually made big improvements as a program. Most of the losses were competitive, and a couple to highly ranked teams in OT. You can see many kids getting better as the season has gone along. My son's a senior, but I think next year the team will be at least .500 level, which is an accomplishment since they play in a meat grinder of a conference.

I say this because, among many other things, the lack of improvement in just about every area of SU hoops during this season is very concerning. A dreadful Miami team just shot 55% against us. Game one vs. LeMoyne? They shot 49%. The loss to Georgetown... 48%. The loss to FSU... 53%.

25 games into the season and nothing and no one is getting better.

Yeah the lack of improvement as the season has progressed is the biggest concern for me. I would even argue that there might even be some regression as the season has gone on.

 

[Scooch]

Kline was hired AFTER we brought in Eddie, Jyare, Lucas, and Jaquan from the portal.

Sounds like Red realized he needed the help.

I'd really like to see what Kline can accomplish out of the portal this offseason with Melo's checkbook.

You're going to get your chance to see that, because we know Red will be here another season.

That being said, Autry seems to be recognizing all these issues way too slowly. NIL, GM, etc. It's all reactive and late.

Something tells me there will be another issue next year that folks glom on to as "the reason," that should have been seen now.

 

[RF2044]

This is it exactly
They have to show me that they have any idea what to do fundamentally
I'm open to the idea that NIL is something that needs to be addressed
But this offense where people stand around is separate from that
This defense where everyone keeps going under screens
Basic stuff
It's so obvious he's gotta go but they have a nobody with no leverage a ridiculous contact

What was red going to do if they low-ball him? Go to rutgers-newark?

Amen.

The NIL talk is just more noise, to rationalize away coaching being the primary factor behind this train wreck.

• We have no cohesive concept on either side of the ball.
• We're terrible on defense.
• Players don't appear to improve, and in Bell's case have regressed significantly.
• Our in-game X's and O's are subpar.
• Substitution patterns are baffling.

So sure, NIL needs to improve. Yes, not having enough is a detriment.

But having more NIL money to spend isn't going to change all of the above issues, that are related to poor coaching.

There are examples all over college basketball, across every conference level, of teams playing a much higher level / caliber / quality of basketball than us, with a fraction of the NIL budget we have. It's just another excuse to distract away from the real elephant in the room.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Kline was hired AFTER we brought in Eddie, Jyare, Lucas, and Jaquan from the portal.

Sounds like Red realized he needed the help.

I'd really like to see what Kline can accomplish out of the portal this offseason with Melo's checkbook.

Don’t you think they could do the same with a new coach? I’m not convinced we would lose any of our recruits if we hired the right coach. You better have Melo’s blessing?

 

[sdhall01]

We talked about this in the game thread last night.

If we benched everyone who didn't listen, we'd be starting Alex Kline and Noah Lobdell.

Can’t have that; you might lose to Miami!

 

[LAorange44]

For what it’s worth, here is each teams Quad I and II total for the last 2 seasons excluding the newcomers since they weren’t in conference last year:

BC: 7-23
Cuse: 8-23
Miami: 8-27
ND: 9-25
NC State: 9-25
GT: 10-24
Ville: 10-24
VT: 10-25
FSU: 11-20
VA: 12-20
Pitt: 13-18
Wake: 15-18
Clim: 19-14
Duke: 20-11
UNC: 22-17

Two things are clear: With only 3 teams with winning records against Quad I and II teams, the league is really really bad. We are basically BC bad under Red Autry.

 

[sufandu]

We have a team full of players who can't or won't play defense. No intensity, no toughness and no mindset. Your words.

Isn't that the definition of a talent issue?

I have no idea what we're teaching these guys in practice, but it's pretty obvious they're not doing it.

If I send you to the store to buy me a six-pack of Amstel Light, and you come back with Keystone Light, is that a talent issue or a coaching issue?

I don't think intensity and toughness have to be related to talent. There are less talented guys that beat talented guys because they're so tough and intense.

We've never had a coach that set that tone. Even JB's teams varied depending on the personalities of the players. When we had intense in your face guys our style reflected that. When we had more passive guys, that was reflected.

 

[Chip]

What's bizarre is that during the waning years of the Boeheim era folks said Autry knew the program had to modernize. That we had to run a more complex offense and that defense had to be more man with more pressure.

I figured last year was a mulligan since it was still largely JB's roster. But this season? It's Autry's roster almost entirely and we're still running an indecipherable system on both ends of the court.

I really don't get it.

Knowing it has to modernize and being able to modernize it are two different things.

We basically have 2 paths to take. Going all in on talent, but that requires that 3 letter word that I'm not going to repeat.

Or just stockpiling recruits that buy into what we're doing and will be able to eventually execute it. But that requires that the coach really does have a vision that can be executed. Jury's out, or has already given their verdict.

I feel pretty confident saying that the path of bringing in seniors from mid majors to fill out the roster is not the right approach.

 

[FloridaCuse]

I've seen some posters question whether Maliq Brown went to Duke because of the NIL he was offered. I've wondered whether it was more than that -- that he also saw a less than ideal coaching situation at Cuse.

 

[Red2003]

Knowing it has to modernize and being able to modernize it are two different things.

We basically have 2 paths to take. Going all in on talent, but that requires that 3 letter word that I'm not going to repeat.

Or just stockpiling recruits that buy into what we're doing and will be able to eventually execute it. But that requires that the coach really does have a vision that can be executed. Jury's out, or has already given their verdict.

I feel pretty confident saying that the path of bringing in seniors from mid majors to fill out the roster is not the right approach.

It’s crazy I always thought we would remember some of those bad guards that just didn’t work out over the years. Even the worst on their worst night would school Carlos on his best night tho.

Same with Bell. We had some headcases over the years but Bell really takes the mental issues to new levels.

The word bust isn’t even justified. What’s 10X worse than bust for those 2.

 

[AcAndAc]

JB coming out and calling him a good coach is laughable. It is like saying "even a good coach can't do what I did, so how did get rid of me work out?"

 

[phil77]

JB coming out and calling him a good coach is laughable. It is like saying "even a good coach can't do what I did, so how did get rid of me work out?"

JB says things