Let this sink in

[OttoinGrotto]

Thus far we have faced 2 more plays per game on D vs last year. Yet we give up 65.5 more yards per game. So it isn't simply a function of speeding up on O.

2016 72.8 504.2
2015 70.6 438.5

Freshmen defensive ends and a patchwork secondary can do that to you.

That's not a knock on the players on those units. They're being thrown to the wolves.

 

[TheCusian]

The team that attempted to keep everything in front from the beginning (taking away the deep verticals and medium level pass plays) was USF. So we ran a lot. It loosened up the passing game enough.

Thus offense is best when it's got a lead vs an aggressive D.

 

[Josh Mack]

Notre Dame's starting skill guys are bigger than our linebackers. Their safeties are the size of our linebackers, linebackers the size of our starting defensive ends (10 pounds lighter). Hell, their QB is the size of our defensive ends!

Todd McShay's Scouts Inc had 5 ND players going in the top 2 rounds. I'm not sure we have one player drafted next year.

I know it can be frustrating watching your team lose...we've seen too much of that the last 10 years or so. We'd like to think a certain system would make things better, or that things would be better if we somehow fired a staff.

Realistically we still have a roster that is probably 500ish in the old Big East. But we are a long way away from competing with the NDs, FSUs, LSUs of the world. For those who watched the Clemson Louisville game last night, ask yourself if you think our speed and size would hold up during that game?

The young kids are still kids. They aren't plug and play 5 star talent. Black and Coleman shouldn't be seeing the field this year, but we have no choice. Our O yesterday featured what, 1 or 2 seniors? Defense started 0 seniors?

I think this staff is excellent. I really do. I have 0 problem with the Tampa 2 defense...it wasn't the defense that got Winfield peaking in the backfield on play action. The defense did everything it needed to do on ND's reverse the field TD run. Bigger, faster players probably snuff that out for a 5 yard loss.

I believe we will get there. I think this team in 2 years is going to be close to a 10 win team. I love these systems -- they are light years better than anything we have had here since the freeze option days. Patience people, patience.

EDIT: For those bitching about Dungey, the kid is averaging 340 yards a game through the air with 11TDs and 3 picks. He also has 5 of our 6 rushing TDs...please.

The problem with the system is that they're trying to get these young guys to do things at pace and execution that NFL players have a hard time executing. The guys are out of gas by the second half! Dungey is expected to release the ball faster than Peyton Manning. That might work for a bit, but eventually fatigue will set in on the young man making his passes hit the turf instead of the players. He finds himself releasing the ball faster than he sets his feet for proper throwing position. Stop trying to break the speed/time barrier and let these kids settle in a play football at a pace that maximizes their ability. As a coach, I always let my cast of players determine the system I used instead of trying to conform players to the one I'm most comfortable with. "Different strokes for different folks!"

 

[NineOneSeven]

You and I agree on that. But for casual fans that grew up watching 30 years of meathead football, they see 50 points and say "Holy $#!^ we got crushed!"

See yesterday's DO headline, Notre Dame blows out Syracuse football, 50-33, with 2nd-half surge
Bet they don't lead with that if the final score is 24-7.

Most people are still having a hard time adjusting to the "basketball on grass" method of playing football.

"Most" people are casual fans who dont care what the score is other than what number is higher. That's why it's so hard to get more fans behind SU. Allowing teams to score multiple touchdowns in less than 5 minutes on national TV doesn't help that. By the way... We are really good at that.

 

[OrangeFoo]

The problem with the system is that they're trying to get these young guys to do things at pace and execution that NFL players have a hard time executing. The guys are out of gas by the second half! Dungey is expected to release the ball faster than Peyton Manning. That might work for a bit, but eventually fatigue will set in on the young man making his passes hit the turf instead of the players. He finds himself releasing the ball faster than he sets his feet for proper throwing position. Stop trying to break the speed/time barrier and let these kids settle in a play football at a pace that maximizes their ability. As a coach, I always let my cast of players determine the system I used instead of trying to conform players to the one I'm most comfortable with. "Different strokes for different folks!"

Yet Baylor does it with no problem... I didn't realize they were an nfl team.

I haven't seen fatigue from too many plays... I have seen a qb who gets hit too often because he takes off too early from the pocket and a qb who gets very indecisive once the D starts taking away what he wants to do as the game goes on. All of that causes him to lose his mechanics which makes him look even worse.

 

[OrangePA]

My biggest problem this year is the offense getting away from what works mid game

My presumption is that the defenses are adjusting to what the Orange has been doing during the beginning of the games.

And my guess is that the defenses have been adjusting in such a way as to force the Orange to run the ball - and we can't run the ball.

I don't know Xs and Os - admittedly. So I don't know what is actually happening as the games progress, but that's my presumption.

And, by the way, I understand your theory on defense and offense. The problem for me is actually watching it.

I like watching aggressive and dominant defense. I don't like watching the other team march up and down the field - that, for me at least, is like the Chinese water torture. I admit that that style of football, for me, is uncomfortable.

I hope this strategy works because I want to win games.

And, by the way, I am not calling for a recount on Scott Shafer. I like Dino a lot. And I am very optimistic with him at the helm.

As you know, I actually liked the offense that Lester ran last year and I always liked Scott's aggressive defensive style.

I don't know how we would have done this year with Coach Shafer. But, I certainly don't think it's a slam dunk that he would have done worse than what we are seeing right now.

My hope of course is that Dino and his style - along with the ACC and the improved facilities - will attract bigger, stronger and faster athletes who can truly compete with ND and the others.

I'm confident that that will happen.

 

[Millhouse]

Remember our D stink last year too (we were 111th I think). Now allow the other team more plays and possessions due to the nature of our offense and presto...

The issues on D go deeper than scheme.

agree it's not all scheme but when you're that bad, there is almost nowhere to go but up. But we got worse per play

 

[Millhouse]

My presumption is that the defenses are adjusting to what the Orange has been doing during the beginning of the games.

And my guess is that the defenses have been adjusting in such a way as to force the Orange to run the ball - and we can't run the ball.

I don't know Xs and Os - admittedly. So I don't know what is actually happening as the games progress, but that's my presumption.

And, by the way, I understand your theory on defense and offense. The problem for me is actually watching it.

I like watching aggressive and dominant defense. I don't like watching the other team march up and down the field - that, for me at least, is like the Chinese water torture. I admit that that style of football, for me, is uncomfortable.

I hope this strategy works because I want to win games.

And, by the way, I am not calling for a recount on Scott Shafer. I like Dino a lot. And I am very optimistic with him at the helm.

As you know, I actually liked the offense that Lester ran last year and I always liked Scott's aggressive defensive style.

I don't know how we would have done this year with Coach Shafer. But, I certainly don't think it's a slam dunk that he would have done worse than what we are seeing right now.

My hope of course is that Dino and his style - along with the ACC and the improved facilities - will attract bigger, stronger and faster athletes who can truly compete with ND and the others.

I'm confident that that will happen.

My point all along is that our defense stinks half the time so why not try to excel in offense (where non factories actually can do it)

 

[OrangePA]

You and I agree on that. But for casual fans that grew up watching 30 years of meathead football, they see 50 points and say "Holy $#!^ we got crushed!"

See yesterday's DO headline, Notre Dame blows out Syracuse football, 50-33, with 2nd-half surge
Bet they don't lead with that if the final score is 24-7.

Most people are still having a hard time adjusting to the "basketball on grass" method of playing football.

I don't know about the "meathead football" thing.

Stanford is not "meathead"

And Michigan is not "meathead."

And when we were moving the ball up and down the field with McPherson, Graves and McNabb in the last "thirty years" that was not "meathead."

I still believe that a team can play both great offense and great defense. Maybe I'm naïve.

On the other hand, I'm all in on Babers and want to see him succeed and of course want him to have the time he needs to fully implement his system.

 

[OrangePA]

My point all along is that our defense stinks half the time so why not try to excel in offense (where non factories actually can do it)

Like I said, I understand your theory and I'm going along with it.

But, for me, in practice, it can be hard to watch at times.

Right now, it is hard to watch the defense - it's even hard for you to watch.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[orangecuse]

Notre Dame's starting skill guys are bigger than our linebackers. Their safeties are the size of our linebackers, linebackers the size of our starting defensive ends (10 pounds lighter). Hell, their QB is the size of our defensive ends!

Todd McShay's Scouts Inc had 5 ND players going in the top 2 rounds. I'm not sure we have one player drafted next year.

I know it can be frustrating watching your team lose...we've seen too much of that the last 10 years or so. We'd like to think a certain system would make things better, or that things would be better if we somehow fired a staff.

Realistically we still have a roster that is probably 500ish in the old Big East. But we are a long way away from competing with the NDs, FSUs, LSUs of the world. For those who watched the Clemson Louisville game last night, ask yourself if you think our speed and size would hold up during that game?

The young kids are still kids. They aren't plug and play 5 star talent. Black and Coleman shouldn't be seeing the field this year, but we have no choice. Our O yesterday featured what, 1 or 2 seniors? Defense started 0 seniors?

I think this staff is excellent. I really do. I have 0 problem with the Tampa 2 defense...it wasn't the defense that got Winfield peaking in the backfield on play action. The defense did everything it needed to do on ND's reverse the field TD run. Bigger, faster players probably snuff that out for a 5 yard loss.

I believe we will get there. I think this team in 2 years is going to be close to a 10 win team. I love these systems -- they are light years better than anything we have had here since the freeze option days. Patience people, patience.

EDIT: For those bitching about Dungey, the kid is averaging 340 yards a game through the air with 11TDs and 3 picks. He also has 5 of our 6 rushing TDs...please.

I'll play. Duke was a 21 point underdog last week at ND...Duke won. And, in doing so, in no way, shape or form did they appear to be the inferior team, let alone by leaps and bounds. This is the same Duke team that a week later lost by two TD's to Virginia (yesterday) at home...the same UVA team that had just recently lost at home to UConn.

I understand the premise of your post, and, I agree with much of your sentiment, but only to a point.

 

[dasher]

I've insisted that defensive minded head coaches get us nowhere and offensive minded head coaches can make a difference and I still believe that. I think this season would an epic disaster with Shafer. But the defense has to get better. It should go without saying that if you're the worst defense, that is going to hurt you. We will be fine with a great offense and an ordinary bad defense soon

Yes, with Shafer we would have been beaten badly against Louisville, South Florida and Notre Dame. Oh wait...

 

[BKCuse]

Can't place blame on the staff as we experience growing pains.

The roster still has kids recruited to play in the Big East. These kids are on their third coaching staff and finding they don't really fit the system. So instead of being team leaders some of these kids are prob mailing it in.

After that we've got a bunch of kids Shaf recruited. Too many of Shaf's kids either aren't very good or simply don't fit the system.

Then Dino's kids are just pups and need to develop

Dino may have gotten away with lesser talent but won quickly with just system in the MAC but it's gonna take longer to climb up to elite ACC levels.

We'll get there but it's going to take a couple seasons.

 

[Josh Mack]

Yet Baylor does it with no problem... I didn't realize they were an nfl team.

I haven't seen fatigue from too many plays... I have seen a qb who gets hit too often because he takes off too early from the pocket and a qb who gets very indecisive once the D starts taking away what he wants to do as the game goes on. All of that causes him to lose his mechanics which makes him look even worse.

Baylor does have more NFL talent than we do (all sarcasm aside)! For Dungey, he seems to get hand-fatigue in the second half. The ball seems to be slipping off his fingers and dying in the air in the second half.

 

[Millhouse]

Thus far we have faced 2 more plays per game on D vs last year. Yet we give up 65.5 more yards per game. So it isn't simply a function of speeding up on O.

2016 72.8 504.2
2015 70.6 438.5

Nd is still really good on offense, this SOS so far will go down even with Clemson and Florida state

 

[Millhouse]

The problem with the system is that they're trying to get these young guys to do things at pace and execution that NFL players have a hard time executing. The guys are out of gas by the second half! Dungey is expected to release the ball faster than Peyton Manning. That might work for a bit, but eventually fatigue will set in on the young man making his passes hit the turf instead of the players. He finds himself releasing the ball faster than he sets his feet for proper throwing position. Stop trying to break the speed/time barrier and let these kids settle in a play football at a pace that maximizes their ability. As a coach, I always let my cast of players determine the system I used instead of trying to conform players to the one I'm most comfortable with. "Different strokes for different folks!"

I'd buy that if they didn't give up 140 yards per first play of games

 

[tep624]

Yet Baylor does it with no problem... I didn't realize they were an nfl team.

I haven't seen fatigue from too many plays... I have seen a qb who gets hit too often because he takes off too early from the pocket and a qb who gets very indecisive once the D starts taking away what he wants to do as the game goes on. All of that causes him to lose his mechanics which makes him look even worse.

Bowling Green under Babers did it with no problem.

People just need to relax and give this thing time. At our peak during the past 12 years we were a borderline top 25 team (1 year - 2012), average, or in most cases, flat out stunk. I can handle a couple more years of that to see where this thing can go.

I mean at this point, what do we have to lose? It's not like we're fighting to be in a P5 conference like UCONN or something.

Perspective people.

 

[Millhouse]

Like I said, I understand your theory and I'm going along with it.

But, for me, in practice, it can be hard to watch at times.

Right now, it is hard to watch the defense - it's even hard for you to watch.

That's all I'm saying.

There is a punchers chance now, even in these games where it ends up screwy, there were moments where you had a little hope. We've had so many blowouts where we were dinged from the get go. Even when we were good

Recruiting can help the defense. There were years where I felt like they could never recruit enough to be good on offense with the goofy schemes post mcnabb

I think this defense would've been dreadful with any coach we have ever had. It's just hopeless almost everywhere you look. Gotta hope for turnover luck the of the way

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The problem with the system is that they're trying to get these young guys to do things at pace and execution that NFL players have a hard time executing. The guys are out of gas by the second half! Dungey is expected to release the ball faster than Peyton Manning. That might work for a bit, but eventually fatigue will set in on the young man making his passes hit the turf instead of the players. He finds himself releasing the ball faster than he sets his feet for proper throwing position. Stop trying to break the speed/time barrier and let these kids settle in a play football at a pace that maximizes their ability. As a coach, I always let my cast of players determine the system I used instead of trying to conform players to the one I'm most comfortable with. "Different strokes for different folks!"

If the kids aren't that talented, and you fit your scheme to them, you will have a marginal gain due to fit (maybe) but at this level you'll never be that good.

I promise you we'll increase our talent doing it this way, and that will reinforce the system. People are noticing the passing numbers. That will pay dividends.

 

[CIL]

I'll play. Duke was a 21 point underdog last week at ND...Duke won. And, in doing so, in no way, shape or form did they appear to be the inferior team, let alone by leaps and bounds. This is the same Duke team that a week later lost by two TD's to Virginia (yesterday) at home...the same UVA team that had just recently lost at home to UConn.

I understand the premise of your post, and, I agree with much of your sentiment, but only to a point.

Transitive football doesn't work. I'd say this Duke program has certainly passed us by with regards to talent and success (that almost makes me want to puke). They've been out recruiting us for the last few years as well.

Give it time. It took a while for Cutliffe to get the ball rolling at Duke too.

 

[rrlbees]

I don't buy the we have NO talent argument. The last 5 classes have all been ranked in the 50's except what would now be true seniors. I know that's subjective but over time it's an indicator. It's not like our classes have been rated in the 100's. And until this true freshman class our classes have been better than Dukes.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

Schemes, coaches, talent etc. wait a couple more years we've turned the corner UGH! WE need Jimmy Jones.

 

[CIL]

I don't buy the we have NO talent argument. The last 5 classes have all been ranked in the 50's except what would now be true seniors. I know that's subjective but over time it's an indicator. It's not like our classes have been rated in the 100's. And until this true freshman class our classes have been better than Dukes.

57, 50, 53, and 73 in our last 4 classes I think. There are what, 64 P5 teams? It's bottom decile P5 recruiting.

Like I said, that's fine for the BE. We aren't in the BE anymore...

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don't buy the we have NO talent argument. The last 5 classes have all been ranked in the 50's except what would now be true seniors. I know that's subjective but over time it's an indicator. It's not like our classes have been rated in the 100's. And until this true freshman class our classes have been better than Dukes.

The talent we do have is all really young.

 

[rrlbees]

57, 50, 53, and 73 in our last 4 classes I think. There are what, 64 P5 teams? It's bottom decile P5 recruiting. Like I said, that's fine for the BE. We aren't in the BE anymore...

The rankings are more than P5. There are good teams outside of the P5. There are bad teams in the P5. We've been ranked above several ACC teams and a dozen or more P5 teams. It's all relative. The point is, we have more than zero talent.