Love this snippet from 30 for 30: Requiem For The Big East Rivalry

[OttoinGrotto]

I take solace in the fact that UCONN has won more NCs than the rest of the BE... combined.

First off, let me congratulate you on that.

Under normal circumstances, fans on a message board could get chippy after a statement like that, but not me.

Calhoun, while a surly jerk, was a dang fine coach.

Ollie looks like a winner.

Northeast basketball shouldn't call the body on UCONN yet.

Not going to have much national presence in that conference though.

Sincerely,
OttoinGrotto

 

[sdhusky]

First off, let me congratulate you on that.

Under normal circumstances, fans on a message board could get chippy after a statement like that, but not me.

Calhoun, while a surly jerk, was a dang fine coach.

Ollie looks like a winner.

Northeast basketball shouldn't call the body on UCONN yet.

Not going to have much national presence in that conference though.

Sincerely,
OttoinGrotto

Thanks for the congratulations!

 

[wfschrec]

The battle cry of fans of teams that chronicly underachieve in March.

Going back 25 years the national champ has been a one or two seed 20 times. If you include three seeds it becomes 23. The only time it hasn't been a top four seed in the last quarter century is this year.

So yeah if you take it on a per year basis it is a crap shoot I suppose. If you just looked at this year and nothing else you'd think Coach K was a joke and Scott Drew is a genius. But if you look at enough data points over enough years the same programs and the same coaches make deep runs.

UConn was not a 1 or a 2 this past season ... the year SU won it wasn't a 1 or 2 seed ... they weren't the best teams in college basketball either of those seasons. During the 03 run had SU met UConn in the NCAA tourney they would not have won it ... UConn owned them that year ... the tourney plays out in matchups and that is very critical ... a different path can completely change a teams fate ... its a lot harder to fake how good you are over 30+ games then to get hot and win 6 ... sorry to disagree with you.

Scott Drew is a decent coach but far from a genius and we all know coach K's legacy but you are picking on one year and I don't base my decisions on one year ... many times there is a dominant team that wins it but quite often there are teams that win the tourney or make deep runs that do so because of matchups period. It can be luck of the draw just as much as it can be many other factors ... we were a bad matchup for those Big 12 teams the year we won it all because they had issues shooting from beyond the arc ... we embarrassed OU and beat UT and escaped from KU but had those teams gone up against a different opponent one of them could have easily been cutting down the nets ...

The 4 years UConn won the title how many of them do you think were the best teams in the NCAA that season? Be honest with your answer. The Kemba Walker team was a 9 seed in the BE tourney ... a friggin 9 seed.

 

[sdhusky]

The 4 years UConn won the title how many of them do you think were the best teams in the NCAA that season? Be honest with your answer. The Kemba Walker team was a 9 seed in the BE tourney ... a friggin 9 seed.

Kemba's team had 6 or so NBA players on it, swept NYC and the NCAA. It was just very young at the beginning of the year. Adding to the metrics above, I might add having the best player in the tourney is also make you more likely to win. Was there any doubt that Kemba or Shabazz or Carmelo were the best players in the touney's they won?

1999 was a great team. I can make the argument for that year and 2004 that they had both the best team and best player in the tourney.

 

[HOFCeluck]

UConn was not a 1 or a 2 this past season ... the year SU won it wasn't a 1 or 2 seed ... they weren't the best teams in college basketball either of those seasons. During the 03 run had SU met UConn in the NCAA tourney they would not have won it ... UConn owned them that year ... the tourney plays out in matchups and that is very critical ... a different path can completely change a teams fate ... its a lot harder to fake how good you are over 30+ games then to get hot and win 6 ... sorry to disagree with you.

Scott Drew is a decent coach but far from a genius and we all know coach K's legacy but you are picking on one year and I don't base my decisions on one year ... many times there is a dominant team that wins it but quite often there are teams that win the tourney or make deep runs that do so because of matchups period. It can be luck of the draw just as much as it can be many other factors ... we were a bad matchup for those Big 12 teams the year we won it all because they had issues shooting from beyond the arc ... we embarrassed OU and beat UT and escaped from KU but had those teams gone up against a different opponent one of them could have easily been cutting down the nets ...

The 4 years UConn won the title how many of them do you think were the best teams in the NCAA that season? Be honest with your answer. The Kemba Walker team was a 9 seed in the BE tourney ... a friggin 9 seed.

You just named two of the five teams in the last 25 years to win a title seeded lower than two. Hardly refutes my point.

If you want to bring up UCONN this year and us in 2003 that's cool, but I'd raise you UNLV, Duke (92 and 01), UNC (93, 05 and 09), Arkansas, Kentucky (96, 98, and 12), UCONN 99 and 04 Louisville et al.

 

[PeteCalvin]

Ray Allen was a backup recruit.

Emeka was a backup to a backup to a backup

Ben Gordon was a back up

Shabazz was a back up to a back up to back up to a back up

Reggie Lewis didn't have many choices.

Cliff Robinson was from upstate NY and didn't get a sniff from SU and was floundering when Calhoun showed up.

Kevin Ollie was a back up.

Etc. etc. etc.

Guys who played for Calhoun played way beyond their recruiting rankings.

.

And SU has a head to head advantage of about 30 games vs. UCONN. Calhoun and Jim B are exactly .500 against each other.

But since the BE started, UCONN has more BET championships, more elite 8, more sweet 16, more FF and more NC.

You can make the case reasonably either program is 1a or 1b if you don't count NCs. But 4>1

Kemba's title was a gift from the Selection Committee and upsets. They played nobody. Not slighting him, just saying. Where UConn seems to get the breaks in the postseason, SU always has some damn distraction or injury. Again, not an excuse, just frustration. We still should have made the Final Four the year we lost Onuaku and the year we got hosed by the officiating against OSU. All we needed to do was score about 6-8 points when Sullinger was on the bench in the first half. Done in by the typical SU drought.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Kemba's title was a gift from the Selection Committee and upsets. They played nobody. Not slighting him, just saying. Where UConn seems to get the breaks in the postseason, SU always has some damn distraction or injury. Again, not an excuse, just frustration. We still should have made the Final Four the year we lost Onuaku and the year we got hosed by the officiating against OSU. All we needed to do was score about 6-8 points when Sullinger was on the bench in the first half. Done in by the typical SU drought.

I would just ignore him...why he can't admit that team was straight up mediocre is beyond me. I'd love to have one of mediocre teams win the whole thing.

 

[sdhusky]

I would just ignore him...why he can't admit that team was straight up mediocre is beyond me. I'd love to have one of mediocre teams win the whole thing.

Was it really that mediocre? If you want to say it had a mediocre Jan/Feb, ok. I'll buy that. They were very young.

It did knock #2 Michigan St and KY in the Maui Classic in December and to win the BET the way they did indicates they were playing at a "more than mediocre" level.

When the NCAA started, they went to an even higher level.

Go through the line up:

G Kemba Walker - best player in America that season
G Shabazz Napier - turned out to be pretty, pretty good
F Jeremy Lamb - NBA quality player and dominating by the NCAA
F Roscoe Smith - Turned out be one of the best rebounders in college BB and off-the-charts defender
C Alex Oriakhi - 2nd in the BE in rebounds that year, quality player. Borderline NBA.

C - Jim Calhoun - One of the greatest tournament coaches of all time.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Was it really that mediocre

Yes.

 

[wfschrec]

You just named two of the five teams in the last 25 years to win a title seeded lower than two. Hardly refutes my point.

If you want to bring up UCONN this year and us in 2003 that's cool, but I'd raise you UNLV, Duke (92 and 01), UNC (93, 05 and 09), Arkansas, Kentucky (96, 98, and 12), UCONN 99 and 04 Louisville et al.

Duke in 2010 got a gift wrt seeding and opponents ... we were one Onuaku knee from playing for a title ... UConn in 2014 and 2011 had no business winning titles. You are also referring to just teams winning the title ... look at some of the squads that have played in the Final Four ... hell one year it was George Mason and LSU and LSU only put up like 45 points ... which feeds into my point that sometimes matchups and seedings and even what region you are in can lead to a deep run or a title. The 02 Maryland squad lost in the ACC tourney and was although they split with Duke was pounded by 21 in one of those meetings and they dodged a huge bullet when 1 seed Duke was upset before they had the rubber match with MD ... If Duke made the FF I would have bet on them to beat MD and take the rubber match ... they were a bad matchup for MD that season. In 96 Georgia upset mighty 1 seed Purdue giving SU an easier path to the final ... Big Dog Robinson would have killed us ... that upset allowed us to go on and beat KU and make the Final Four ... When Arkansas lost the season after their title run we should have been in the FF ... we were an OT away from beating the Razorbacks and moving on ... and that SU team was solid and I bet had they met a squad other then Arkansas that story may have been different. Wallace, Moten, Hill and company were starting to click in the tourney but hit eventual runner up in the Razorbacks and lost in a classic. The shooting of Scotty Thurman is what did us in ... they were a bad matchup for SU.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Duke in 2010 got a gift wrt seeding and opponents ... we were one Onuaku knee from playing for a title [/quote.]

I intentionally left Duke 2010 off as I don't think they were the best team that year. Of course they finished the year ranked third in the AP poll, tied for first place in the ACC and won the ACC tournament. So they were one of the 3-4 best teams in the country after we lost AO.

UConn in 2014 and 2011 had no business winning titles.

Thanks for pointing that out once again.

You are also referring to just teams winning the title ... look at some of the squads that have played in the Final Four ... hell one year it was George Mason and LSU and LSU only put up like 45 points ... which feeds into my point that sometimes matchups and seedings and even what region you are in can lead to a deep run or a title.

Though I don't disagree that luck and matchup play a role, the purpose of the tournament is to crown a champion. So ultimately it makes no difference if GMU or LSU make deep runs.

The 02 Maryland squad lost in the ACC tourney and was although they split with Duke was pounded by 21 in one of those meetings and they dodged a huge bullet when 1 seed Duke was upset before they had the rubber match with MD ... If Duke made the FF I would have bet on them to beat MD and take the rubber match ... they were a bad matchup for MD that season.

That Maryland team also went 15-1 in the ACC.

But Yes, Duke was such a bad matchup the Terps won going away at Cole Field House. But even if Duke beats Maryland it doesn't really change my point. Duke was one of the title favorites that year anyway.

. When Arkansas lost the season after their title run we should have been in the FF ... we were an OT away from beating the Razorbacks and moving on ... and that SU team was solid and I bet had they met a squad other then Arkansas that story may have been different. Wallace, Moten, Hill and company were starting to click in the tourney but hit eventual runner up in the Razorbacks and lost in a classic. The shooting of Scotty Thurman is what did us in ... they were a bad matchup for SU.

Spare me the overblown legend of the 1995 team. I will never understand why so many take it as fait accompli they were final four bound if they got past Arkansas. This was a team that was 4-6 their last 10"regular season games. They were coming off a loss to providence in the BET and won a squeaker by four to SOuthern Illinois. Given their inconsistent performance they were just as likely, if not moreso to follow up a,win over Arkansas with a loss a loss to Memphis or Virginia.

 

[wfschrec]

Spare me the overblown legend of the 1995 team. I will never understand why so many take it as fait accompli they were final four bound if they got past Arkansas. This was a team that was 4-6 their last 10"regular season games. They were coming off a loss to providence in the BET and won a squeaker by four to SOuthern Illinois. Given their inconsistent performance they were just as likely, if not moreso to follow up a,win over Arkansas with a loss a loss to Memphis or Virginia.

So what if they won a squeaker .. the 03 team had a few along the way a W is a W ... MD had to come back and win that game at Cole Field house and totally laid an egg in the ACC tourney ... quite frankly like I said that season Duke was a bad matchup for them. And whether or not Duke was a favorite isn't really my point ... my point is that the tournament and its format leads to having teams make deep runs in situations where if you change the outcome of one or two games or if you move them to another region they don't accomplish the same feat. Which feeds into my premise that winning 6 straight games is great ... a national title is awesome and I wish we had more but again demonstrating the amazing consistency that the Cuse has displayed as a small private university in CNY is amazing. The regular season determines who should be the tourney favorites though no? Which is why I do put so much emphasis on how this team has performed throughout the regular season.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So what if they won a squeaker .. the 03 team had a few along the way a W is a W ... MD had to come back and win that game at Cole Field house and totally laid an egg in the ACC tourney ... quite frankly like I said that season Duke was a bad matchup for them. And whether or not Duke was a favorite isn't really my point ... my point is that the tournament and its format leads to having teams make deep runs in situations where if you change the outcome of one or two games or if you move them to another region they don't accomplish the same feat. Which feeds into my premise that winning 6 straight games is great ... a national title is awesome and I wish we had more but again demonstrating the amazing consistency that the Cuse has displayed as a small private university in CNY is amazing. The regular season determines who should be the tourney favorites though no? Which is why I do put so much emphasis on how this team has performed throughout the regular season.

The point that I disagree with you is the cliche that the tourney is a "crapshoot." It's much more probable that the champion comes from a group of the top 5-6 teams than some turd like this years UCONN team getting hot for six games.

 

[wfschrec]

The point that I disagree with you is the cliche that the tourney is a "crapshoot." It's much more probable that the champion comes from a group of the top 5-6 teams than some turd like this years UCONN team getting hot for six games.

Yeah that is fair ... I think some of the final four teams come out of a crapshoot more than anything ... and yes that is one smelly turd LOL. Poor phrasing I suppose maybe I should say a lot of teams make it further than they should because it a crapshoot.

 

[longtimefan]

Matt - UCONN became a power the day Calhoun showed up not when Donyell was signed.

He took the worst team in the BE and won a NIT championship in year 2.

Got his first BE regular season championship, BET championship and #1 seed in year 4.

Donyell Marshall didn't come until year 5.

If Calhoun missed him, the guy he got instead probably would have been All-American too.

Maybe better. Calhoun was that good at development.

That year 4 team was built around an Israeli pro player who was 23 years old when he played in Storrs.

 

[sdhusky]

That year 4 team was built around an Israeli pro player who was 23 years old when he played in Storrs.

If you mean, two years later, he was a 23 year old pro player, you are right.

He was a 21 year old, former Israeli Army basketball player when he was a UCONN.

And that was Chris Smith's team, btw.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Unlike alot of fans I don't believe in what-ifs or what-might've-beens. UConn earned their NC's and regardless, they are on the books and can't be taken back. 4-1...congrats.
Frankly, I never had a quarrel w/ UConn, considered them a worthy rival, and respected the hell out of JC. Until...you got left behind.
Suddenly, all your venom, anger, panic, and bitterness was directed at Rutgers and SU. Now rightfully, Rutgers sucks, will suck, has sucked, and will continue to forever suck, but they have geography, and you don't. Its understandable blasting that pathetic program.
But why the Cuse-envy? Why the pot-shots because you couldn't measure up and got left behind?
The fact that those on the BY board continue their circle-jerk around all-things Syracuse, is both sad and pathetic. I wish your program, NC's and all, nothing but a slow, interminable wasting away as the rest of the P5 conferences leave you in the dust- it couldn't happen to a better fanbase. Better yet, why not go make more friends and find somebody to sue, it sure helped you the last go-round.
Buh-bye!

 

[HOFCeluck]

The real new ACC Logo

 

[longtimefan]

If you mean, two years later, he was a 23 year old pro player, you are right.

He was a 21 year old, former Israeli Army basketball player when he was a UCONN.

And that was Chris Smith's team, btw.

Let's split the difference. Henefeld turned 22 right after the BET in '90.

And, your boys would not have succeeded that year without him; as was proven the next season.

 

[sdhusky]

Let's split the difference. Henefeld turned 22 right after the BET in '90.

And, your boys would not have succeeded that year without him; as was proven the next season.

Huh? Split the difference?

He was 21 during the entire time he played at UCONN. He turned 22 after the season was over.

You must either be a lawyer or marketing guy

 

[longtimefan]

Huh? Split the difference?

He was 21 during the entire time he played at UCONN. He turned 22 after the season was over.

You must either be a lawyer or marketing guy

So, address my second point. Or are you at the bar?