Lower you expectations of Cooney | Syracusefan.com

Lower you expectations of Cooney

Quazzum69

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Unfortunately, he has not been and may not be the “it” factor that the team needed this year as an outside threat, which is especially troubling given Southerland’s uncertain future. Although the “real” season has just begun (and really doesn't start until tomorrow against Looville), he has not impressed at all against lesser competition like he should have.

Thus far, he is averaging 13.6 MPG in 17 games and is shooting 19 of 66 from 3-pt land. That’s a success rate of .288, worse than Southerland, Triche, Fair and Grant. He has attempted third most on the team and is shooting, per minute, more threes than anyone else (Southerland =.205/min, Triche =.132/min, MCW =.104/min and Cooney= .284/min!). Now, I’m not saying he is a drain on the team and should be playing for LeMoyne or anything, but I can’t think of a player who is shooting as many threes and has made less than him. Sure, Trevor could get hot in the next few months, but he will be playing (if he ever leaves the bench during these games) against the best of the Big East, including the #1 Cardinals at the KFC Yum!TM Center, then the NCAA tournament.

How can anyone possibly make wild claims of how great someone will be in two, three years when the only evidence available suggests the opposite? Let’s look at the best shooters in DI basketball for 2011-2012, how they began their college shooting and where they ended up:

I took 71 of the best three-point shooters (3-pt FG Pct. 2011-2012 leaders, only juniors and seniors; there is a minimum amount of shots to make the list, I’m not sure if it was total or average per game – the lowest was 133 attempted) and looked back to see how they shot in their freshmen year (if they did not attempt at least 50 shots their freshmen year, I used the sophomore year but there had to be at least two years between 2011-2012 and their first 50+ attempt year).

How do you think some of the best upperclassmen 3-point shooters performed two to three years before when they were freshmen and sophomores? Did they shoot like Cooney has, or were they already pretty good to begin with?

Of the 71 players, only seven shot below .300 in their first year with at least 50 attempts. In fact, there were more players (eight) who shot above .450 in the first year than shot below .300, with the average being .367 (about 70% are between .316 and .418). The average number of attempts in the first year was 115 (which is probably about where Cooney will be after this year). There was no correlation between shooting percentage in the first year and shooting percent in the 2011-2012 season or shooting percentage and number of attempts.

In other words: given a top-shooting upperclassmen (which Cooney may be someday), what is the probability that they shot less than .300 two to three years prior? About 1 out of 10. Even better: given a high-volume, low percentage three-point shooter who is an underclassmen (which Cooney is currently), what is the probability that they become one of the best in the country when they are an upperclassmen? Who knows, but it is probably not very high.

To put things in perspective and not dwell on the negatives, Cooney is an excellent player to have. I would pick him before most of the guards in the country, as JB and the staff did. His offensive efficiency is as high as MCW and Triche and he is athletic enough to compete with most college players. Will he get better? Sure. Will he ever become an elite shooter? The numbers seem to be against him, but here is some encouraging history:

*Preston Shumpert: freshmen year (27/93 = .290)…senior year (88/233 = .378)
*Demetris Nichols: freshmen year (17/72 = .236)…senior year (100/240 = .417)
 
Etan thomas fouled out in less than a half his freshman year. Rony seikaly during his freshman year was so bad it made all syracuse fans question why jb even offered him a scholly.

He will work out just fine. Kid plays good defense.


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Etan thomas fouled out in less than a half his freshman year. Rony seikaly during his freshman year was so bad it made all syracuse fans question why jb even offered him a scholly.

He will work out just fine. Kid plays good defense.


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Even before that Danny Schayes played like he had a wooden leg for 3 yrs and then looked like Dave Cowens his senior year.
 
I think though with the road ahead. that we will end up with a decent enough sample size to make a honest guess as to his overall ability.
That's the subtle downside of James' absence.
We only have 3 "true" guards. James could play the position in a pinch. I do not see Grant being any kind of guard, except I do see he free-forms a lot in the offensive sets.
 
My expectations for Cooney weren't all that high preseason. It's hard for guys to be high percentage shooters the first time they play at this level.

Going forward there will be moments when teams give him the opportunity to beat them. Sometimes he'll take advantage, other times he won't. We'll need him to be at least somewhat productive though if we wish to remain a Top 10 team.
 
Pomeroy has an interesting feature in which he uses an algorithm to look at any given player's any given season, and to see what other player nationally is most similar.

For Trevor, it is former Florida State guard Deividas Dulkys. Dulkys shot .286 from three on 98 attempts as a freshman . . . than leaped to .397 on 179 attempts as a sophomore. He did regress as a junior before finishing at .377 as a senior.

that doesn't mean Trevor will follow the same or a similar path, but I like what I see from the kid. I'm sure the offense will come around, and his defense has been solid.
 
Pomeroy has an interesting feature in which he uses an algorithm to look at any given player's any given season, and to see what other player nationally is most similar.

For Trevor, it is former Florida State guard Deividas Dulkys. Dulkys shot .286 from three on 98 attempts as a freshman . . . than leaped to .397 on 179 attempts as a sophomore. He did regress as a junior before finishing at .377 as a senior.

that doesn't mean Trevor will follow the same or a similar path, but I like what I see from the kid. I'm sure the offense will come around, and his defense has been solid.

everyone is missing the one huge difference, and to me the most troubling. he is a 20 year old RS FR. HUGE difference from some 18 year old TR FR. And the defense is so far over rated it's getting ridiculous. He will be recruited over.
 
Pomeroy has an interesting feature in which he uses an algorithm to look at any given player's any given season, and to see what other player nationally is most similar.

For Trevor, it is former Florida State guard Deividas Dulkys. Dulkys shot .286 from three on 98 attempts as a freshman . . . than leaped to .397 on 179 attempts as a sophomore. He did regress as a junior before finishing at .377 as a senior.

that doesn't mean Trevor will follow the same or a similar path, but I like what I see from the kid. I'm sure the offense will come around, and his defense has been solid.
His defense has been a surprise, but this may be only my perception. But he seems much more effective paired alongside MCW than with BT. I seem to remember most of Cooney's rough stretches were next to BT, who was going through a stink-session himself.
 
Pomeroy has an interesting feature in which he uses an algorithm to look at any given player's any given season, and to see what other player nationally is most similar.

For Trevor, it is former Florida State guard Deividas Dulkys. Dulkys shot .286 from three on 98 attempts as a freshman . . . than leaped to .397 on 179 attempts as a sophomore. He did regress as a junior before finishing at .377 as a senior.

that doesn't mean Trevor will follow the same or a similar path, but I like what I see from the kid. I'm sure the offense will come around, and his defense has been solid.
Interestingly, Cooney shot 37% his Senior year of High School
The kid is going to be a valuable contributor for 5 years before it's all said and done. Eventually he will become more comfortable playing at the collegiate level and I have little doubt that he will not only be a very good 3 pt. shooter but a considerable contributor in other areas such as defense and leadership.
 
everyone is missing the one huge difference, and to me the most troubling. he is a 20 year old RS FR. HUGE difference from some 18 year old TR FR. And the defense is so far over rated it's getting ridiculous. He will be recruited over.

Wrong Billy.That is not a HUGE difference. Not even close. A HUGE difference is comparing a true freshman to a fifth year senior.
 
Also should account for 37% senior yr 3pt and 77% ft shooting

Edit. Day late and buck short again
 
Unfortunately, he has not been and may not be the “it” factor that the team needed this year as an outside threat, which is especially troubling given Southerland’s uncertain future. Although the “real” season has just begun (and really doesn't start until tomorrow against Looville), he has not impressed at all against lesser competition like he should have.

Thus far, he is averaging 13.6 MPG in 17 games and is shooting 19 of 66 from 3-pt land. That’s a success rate of .288, worse than Southerland, Triche, Fair and Grant. He has attempted third most on the team and is shooting, per minute, more threes than anyone else (Southerland =.205/min, Triche =.132/min, MCW =.104/min and Cooney= .284/min!). Now, I’m not saying he is a drain on the team and should be playing for LeMoyne or anything, but I can’t think of a player who is shooting as many threes and has made less than him. Sure, Trevor could get hot in the next few months, but he will be playing (if he ever leaves the bench during these games) against the best of the Big East, including the #1 Cardinals at the KFC Yum M Center, then the NCAA tournament.

How can anyone possibly make wild claims of how great someone will be in two, three years when the only evidence available suggests the opposite? Let’s look at the best shooters in DI basketball for 2011-2012, how they began their college shooting and where they ended up:

I took 71 of the best three-point shooters (3-pt FG Pct. 2011-2012 leaders, only juniors and seniors; there is a minimum amount of shots to make the list, I’m not sure if it was total or average per game – the lowest was 133 attempted) and looked back to see how they shot in their freshmen year (if they did not attempt at least 50 shots their freshmen year, I used the sophomore year but there had to be at least two years between 2011-2012 and their first 50+ attempt year).

How do you think some of the best upperclassmen 3-point shooters performed two to three years before when they were freshmen and sophomores? Did they shoot like Cooney has, or were they already pretty good to begin with?

Of the 71 players, only seven shot below .300 in their first year with at least 50 attempts. In fact, there were more players (eight) who shot above .450 in the first year than shot below .300, with the average being .367 (about 70% are between .316 and .418). The average number of attempts in the first year was 115 (which is probably about where Cooney will be after this year). There was no correlation between shooting percentage in the first year and shooting percent in the 2011-2012 season or shooting percentage and number of attempts.

In other words: given a top-shooting upperclassmen (which Cooney may be someday), what is the probability that they shot less than .300 two to three years prior? About 1 out of 10. Even better: given a high-volume, low percentage three-point shooter who is an underclassmen (which Cooney is currently), what is the probability that they become one of the best in the country when they are an upperclassmen? Who knows, but it is probably not very high.

To put things in perspective and not dwell on the negatives, Cooney is an excellent player to have. I would pick him before most of the guards in the country, as JB and the staff did. His offensive efficiency is as high as MCW and Triche and he is athletic enough to compete with most college players. Will he get better? Sure. Will he ever become an elite shooter? The numbers seem to be against him, but here is some encouraging history:

*Preston Shumpert: freshmen year (27/93 = .290)…senior year (88/233 = .378)
*Demetris Nichols: freshmen year (17/72 = .236)…senior year (100/240 = .417)
Wrong. ALL shooters slump. His is at the start of his career, after having sat out a year, thinking he has to make shots to play. The 1st 3 he made against Nova was the 1st one he took in rythmn without thinking. JB then called the next play for him.
Having seen him play defense, I am more excited about the kid than before. He will be great for SU.

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Wrong Billy.That is not a HUGE difference. Not even close. A HUGE difference is comparing a true freshman to a fifth year senior.

any basketball player who has played will tell you otherwise. sorry
 
Weird timing, he just started to get it going! We all thought he could do it based on his form and in the second half with more minutes it finally looked like he was getting comfortable and started hitting. And now you're telling us to expect less?

He has been having a series of rapid improvement. For instance:
Nov OOC 13%
Dec OOC 36%
1st three of BE/Jan 17%
last game BE 33%
And if you wanted to get even more specific the 2 made out of 6 from the last game were in the second half.

The light just went on! My expectations have risen because an opportunity has just presented itself.
 
Weird timing, he just started to get it going! We all thought he could do it based on his form and in the second half with more minutes it finally looked like he was getting comfortable and started hitting. And now you're telling us to expect less?

He has been having a series of rapid improvement. For instance:
Nov OOC 13%
Dec OOC 36%
1st three of BE/Jan 17%
last game BE 33%
And if you wanted to get even more specific the 2 made out of 6 from the last game were in the second half.

The light just went on! My expectations have risen because an opportunity has just presented itself.
 
You know this?

yes. your biggest improvement are from your fr yr to soph yr. doesn't really matter if you barely play in games. he practiced every single day against a top 5 nba draft choice, scoop, mcw, bt. rak barely played last year, and neither did mcw and look at those improvements. if he was going to be a player you would be seeing a lot more.
 
yes. your biggest improvement are from your fr yr to soph yr. doesn't really matter if you barely play in games. he practiced every single day against a top 5 nba draft choice, scoop, mcw, bt. rak barely played last year, and neither did mcw and look at those improvements. if he was going to be a player you would be seeing a lot more.

*sigh*
 
yes. your biggest improvement are from your fr yr to soph yr. doesn't really matter if you barely play in games. he practiced every single day against a top 5 nba draft choice, scoop, mcw, bt. rak barely played last year, and neither did mcw and look at those improvements. if he was going to be a player you would be seeing a lot more.
Nope. He had 20k people waiting, holding their breath for the kid to make a shot. It took 3.years for DNic to find himself.

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Nope. He had 20k people waiting, holding their breath for the kid to make a shot. It took 3.years for DNic to find himself.

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hopefully trevor finds himself tomorrow then, and not in 2016
 
yes. your biggest improvement are from your fr yr to soph yr. doesn't really matter if you barely play in games. he practiced every single day against a top 5 nba draft choice, scoop, mcw, bt. rak barely played last year, and neither did mcw and look at those improvements. if he was going to be a player you would be seeing a lot more.
When comparing this year to last year, we as fans do not have the same frame of reference for Cooney as we do for MCW and Rak as we saw them play last year and TC we did not.
As far as MCW this year , compared to last,am not one bit surprised. He is exactly as I saw him. Rak was kind of, "well he should, but I don't know". I am thinking he is going to one day, even if its against a bad team, erupt for 20-10 and from that point he is off. But then again? Ya know?
Another point FWIW, isn't MCW 22? I think they "how good at what age" is more relevant to the NBA.
 
No thanks. I'll keep my expectations high. Trevor is a pure shooter. Dnic was not, he turned himself into a very good 3 pt shooter. Shump was a scorer, not a pure shooter when he came in (averaged like 39 pts a game in HS or something. Shump became a pure shooter. Trevor already is, just needs his rhythm and confidence. Trevor will eventually be a better shooter than JSouth because of the compactness of his stroke. James's is so long it lends itself to slumps as as been evident over the years. Trevor just needs to start being more consistent in game situations.
 
Etan thomas fouled out in less than a half his freshman year. Rony seikaly during his freshman year was so bad it made all syracuse fans question why jb even offered him a scholly.

He will work out just fine. Kid plays good defense.


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you maybe right, but surely you realize that its entirely different - comparing big men who were never taught how to be big men to a guard is bad comparison
 

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