Mark Coyle on 60 Minutes

[ForCuseSake]

Men's sports can't fund themselves without having a women sport counterpart. Men's gymnastics would have to be offset somewhere or another women's sport expanded in #'s.

The segment suggested funding was used as an excuse and that Title IX compliance was based more on the gender balance of student population.

It mentioned UM's 54% female student population was a contributing factor and intimated that Title IX was meant to balance opportunities based on gender ratio.

In other words, if you have 54% female student population then your athletic opportunities should reflect a similar balance (slightly more female athletic teams than male). When the school creates a 115 player football team it is forced to remove male participation in other sports - whether they are fully funded or not.

 

[UpstateSM]

The segment suggested funding was used as an excuse and that Title IX compliance was based more on the gender balance of student population.

It mentioned UM's 54% female student population was a contributing factor and intimated that Title IX was meant to balance opportunities based on gender ratio.

In other words, if you have 54% female student population then your athletic opportunities should reflect a similar balance (slightly more female athletic teams than male). When the school creates a 115 player football team it is forced to remove male participation in other sports - whether they are fully funded or not.

Yupp. You can overcome that disproportionality if you can show a history and continuing practice of program addition for the underrepresented group. But that's an investment of time and money that probably won't return much revenue.

So its easier to cut sports

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

That is so far from the truth. We are directly recruiting with schools who have invested a lot more into their programs then Syracuse has. Kids want to be wowed and we have not done that. It started back in the 80s. They built the dome which worked to attract talent then stopped there. The we are the only horse in town line said it all. The issue is Nys killed high school football so the only horse starved with lesser and lesser local talent. Compound that with any real connections in hotbed areas. So you have mediocre facilities no outside connections and the result is an awful record, a coaching carousel and a university that is just starting to properly fund. Is it too late though.

I disagree with most things you say about facilities, and I base that on things I've heard / read from people far more connected than us. There's merit to what you said about only horse in town, but it has a lot to do with Rust Belt stuff and people moving south and not so much about the NYSPHAA.

 

[Newhouser]

Was the woman form the USOC upset because their feeder program is getting impacted?

 

[jgeorge322]

Ultimately the pro leagues need to make their own development leagues and let college sports be true amateurs so you don’t need to spend hundreds of millions on 2 sports while others get cut

That doesnt solve a thing. Then that revenue disappears. Who pays for those other sports then?

 

[jgeorge322]

How many of the Olympic sports are funded by football revenue. So you want him to cut back the program that pays the bills but keep the ones that

He wont have a response to this. He is missing the point that if you stop the football machine, then you stop the revenue. He wants the revenue to continue but the spending to stop. I believe they call that wanting your cake but eating it too.

This is all too typical nowadays—blame someone else for your realities.

Assume football goes away—why should other students and the state subsidize these gymnasts? I rather provide cheaper tuition to all students then pay for some dude to practice pole vaulting.

 

[FloridaFan]

He wont have a response to this. He is missing the point that if you stop the football machine, then you stop the revenue. He wants the revenue to continue but the spending to stop. I believe they call that wanting your cake but eating it too.

This is all too typical nowadays—blame someone else for your realities.

Assume football goes away—why should other students and the state subsidize these gymnasts? I rather provide cheaper tuition to all students then pay for some dude to practice pole vaulting.

Gee. I wonder how Division 2 handles paying for sports with no real big money. College football And basketball players are athletes first students second. Every other sport is the other way around. And most of those other non Football and basketball players have to pay some form. They don’t get full rides and all the perks the other teams do

 

[Hoo's That]

On jeopardy the answer as to the highest paid individuals in 40 states are government personnel...coaches

That's a very deceptive statistic. Nick Saban gets $100K as a line-item in the University of Alabama's state-provided budget (so the president of Bama can fire him if necessary). The remainder of his multi-million dollar contract comes from the boosters. I don't think $100K makes him the highest-paid state employee. That's how it works at just about every state school.

 

[Hoo's That]

He wont have a response to this. He is missing the point that if you stop the football machine, then you stop the revenue. He wants the revenue to continue but the spending to stop. I believe they call that wanting your cake but eating it too.

This is all too typical nowadays—blame someone else for your realities.

Assume football goes away—why should other students and the state subsidize these gymnasts? I rather provide cheaper tuition to all students then pay for some dude to practice pole vaulting.

Back in the Bear Bryant era, there were over 100 football scholarships. They screamed and cried that football would disappear when the scholarship limit was cut back to 85. How did that turn out? Football would also continue just as it is now with no problem if the scholarship limit was cut to 75. As it is now, almost all incoming freshmen are redshirted. That's 5 years of scholarship money, not just 4. Reducing the limit to 75 would also contribute to reducing the number of recruits receiving a redshirt.

No one is advocating unilateral disarmament by any school. There has to be an across board action by all of D-1 to cut the number of scholarships and stop the facilities arms race.

 

[dasher]

Scum. All schools who cut sports but pay coaches millions are scum

just to be clear, if you were a A.D. at a school, you would fund non revenue sports even if that meant that your successful revenue coaches walked out the door because they were offered more money someplace else. That is your position.

 

[SWC75]

Somebody say they're against Title IX so we can start Monday off with a bang

Throw in an argument about faculties and we're all set for the week.

 

[FloridaFan]

just to be clear, if you were a A.D. at a school, you would fund non revenue sports even if that meant that your successful revenue coaches walked out the door because they were offered more money someplace else. That is your position.

Yes it is. It’s not popular at all but it’s what I believe in

 

[SWC75]

Back in the Bear Bryant era, there were over 100 football scholarships. They screamed and cried that football would disappear when the scholarship limit was cut back to 85. How did that turn out? Football would also continue just as it is now with no problem if the scholarship limit was cut to 75. As it is now, almost all incoming freshmen are redshirted. That's 5 years of scholarship money, not just 4. Reducing the limit to 75 would also contribute to reducing the number of recruits receiving a redshirt.

No one is advocating unilateral disarmament by any school. There has to be an across board action by all of D-1 to cut the number of scholarships and stop the facilities arms race.

College football should have stayed one platoon, (limited substitution). Everyone who played or coached in that era thought it was a better game. ben Schwartzwalder used to have traveling squads of three dozen players. Players playing both ways have a better chance of making the NFL because they show what they can do on both sides of the ball. Some the NFL's best defenders in the 60's when I started watching them were more famous as offensive players in college. As one post here says, college is about creating possibilities, not limiting them. Linemen would have ben 250 pounds instead of 300 or even 350, which isn't healthy. The sport would cost much less but be just as popular. Under Title IX, the football team would not be mathematical dead weight for the men, (because of no female equivalent). That might save some of the men's Olympic sports.

I know that's not going to happen but it could be done if you set a future year as the conversion date and it be a good thing to do. let the NFL specialize players.

Even at that, they say 52 layer play in an average game under the current rules. Do we need 85 scholarships? 100 man rosters?

 

[Moontan]

The segment suggested funding was used as an excuse and that Title IX compliance was based more on the gender balance of student population.

It mentioned UM's 54% female student population was a contributing factor and intimated that Title IX was meant to balance opportunities based on gender ratio.

In other words, if you have 54% female student population then your athletic opportunities should reflect a similar balance (slightly more female athletic teams than male). When the school creates a 115 player football team it is forced to remove male participation in other sports - whether they are fully funded or not.

Not entirely true. They could’ve added another women’s team or two.

 

[SWC75]

football and basketball probably need to leave the NCAA. They need to be set up as corporations, that are for profit, and figure that out. it's an eco system that has grown out of control for the NCAA system.

A college is a place of higher learning. if it becomes a home for just two developmental programs, it's just an academy at that point.

i read probably 30 years ago that Michigan had incorporated their football team, (or maybe it was their athletic department), and basically become an entity unto itself.

I've always thought it was unfair to include the football team under Title IX because there's no female equivalent so male athletes that don't play football have to have their sports cut to balance things. I realize that that has resulted in unprecedented investment in female teams and success internationally in those sports and that's great but what about the men's Olympic sports? Does anyone care about them?

Maybe revenue sports should be treated separately. They are there to make money for the school and to create advertising for it. The other sports are services the school performs for the students.

Another thought is that there is another amateur sports organization: the AAU. they set up athletic teams often associated with businesses. The current environment may not be conducive to this but maybe in the long term maybe the Olympic sports would be better off associated with the AAU.

 

[dasher]

Yes it is. It’s not popular at all but it’s what I believe in

You are a good person. And you mean well. But you wouldn't be a A.D. long. Being in a leadership role is about making very tough decisions. In short order, you would find, because of the lack of success of the revenue producing programs, the money dry up to support the non revenue programs. And it wouldn't be just the programs you were going to cut that would have to go. Life sucks this way. In my life, I once took over the investment sales of a large financial institution. In one of the states I took over, I had to fire half of the sales force. After doing that, sales ROSE close to 80%. Did I like letting those people go? No. I hated it. But I had to take a losing situation and make it a winning situation. We work with limited resources. Athletic programs have already made the decision that you don't want to make. Syracuse university doesn't have a d-1 hockey team. We don't have a baseball team. We don't have a wresting team. At one time, we had both a baseball team and a wrestling team. And at one time, they were both real good. They were cut. Do we really miss having them now? I wish we still had them but I understand that we don't. Limited resources. If you someday want to be a public servant, get used to that. We just can't afford to give everyone everything they want. Wish we could. But someone has to pay for all of that. Nothing is ever free. Someone pays.

 

[dasher]

i read probably 30 years ago that Michigan had incorporated their football team, (or maybe it was their athletic department), and basically become an entity unto itself.

I've always thought it was unfair to include the football team under Title IX because there's no female equivalent so male athletes that don't play football have to have their sports cut to balance things. I realize that that has resulted in unprecedented investment in female teams and success internationally in those sports and that's great but what about the men's Olympic sports? Does anyone care about them?

Maybe revenue sports should be treated separately. They are there to make money for the school and to create advertising for it. The other sports are services the school performs for the students.

Another thought is that there is another amateur sports organization: the AAU. they set up athletic teams often associated with businesses. The current environment may not be conducive to this but maybe in the long term maybe the Olympic sports would be better off associated with the AAU.

It is unfair to include football under Title IX

 

[ForCuseSake]

Not entirely true. They could’ve added another women’s team or two.

Yes, you are correct that UM could've elected to invest in adding a women's team to balance out the participation rate of men (largely due to football).

I think you might've mistaken my summary of UM's position as an endorsement of their decision (it's not).

One of the points the segment was attempting to make was that ADs are choosing to cut male programs rather than fund additional women's programs for Title IX compliance.

So rather than give the men's gymnastics team a chance to become fully funded (as the UM coach proposed) Coyle rejected it because he'd still have to find a men's team to cut to balance the participation numbers.

 

[FloridaFan]

Yes, you are correct that UM could've elected to invest in adding a women's team to balance out the participation rate of men (largely due to football).

I think you might've mistaken my summary of UM's position as an endorsement of their decision (it's not).

One of the point's the segment was attempting to make was that ADs are choosing to cut male programs rather than fund additional women's programs for Title IX compliance.

So rather than give the men's gymnastics team a chance to become fully funded (as the UM coach proposed) Coyle rejected it because he'd still have to find a men's team to cut to balance the participation numbers.

Except the stated reason for their cutting was due to financial issues. Not for title 9 Compliance

 

[ForCuseSake]

Except the stated reason for their cutting was due to financial issues. Not for title 9 Compliance

The "financial issues" for cutting men's gymnastics was the unwillingness to spend funds expanding opportunities for women's teams. Hence, Coyle not being interested in keeping men's gymnastics regardless if they were fully funded (through fundraising campaigns/alumni contributions).

If Coyle decided to keep the men's gymnastics team while they became fully funded he'd have to either A.) cut another men's team/program or B.) Spend money on adding/expanding women's programs.

In other words, he didn't care if the Olympic sport was fully funded, he wanted it gone so his AD didn't have to spend cash on expanding or adding a women's team.

 

[bcubs9497]

Facilities aren't as important as you think they are. And while things are an arms race, Syracuse's problems have far more to do with shifting demographics than facilities.

They weren't for us, otherwise Steven would've gone to Florida or Penn State.

But, more often than not, bling wins.

 

[jgeorge322]

Gee. I wonder how Division 2 handles paying for sports with no real big money. College football And basketball players are athletes first students second. Every other sport is the other way around. And most of those other non Football and basketball players have to pay some form. They don’t get full rides and all the perks the other teams do

Do you think minnesota makes money on its football team? Such that revenues exceed expense?

 

[tep624]

Yes it is. It’s not popular at all but it’s what I believe in

Well you wouldn't be an AD for long.

 

[JoeCollege]

Did you watch it. Coyle wouldn’t even let men’s gymnastics try and fund itself. He just cut it

I think they wanted to fund it by giving gymnastics lessons to young kids. On campus. In the wake of the Penn State scandal. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[SWC75]

Do you think minnesota makes money on its football team? Such that revenues exceed expense?

Which means that the football doesn't pay for the other sports.