Marrone Thoughts

[TheCusian]

So, not only did Doug Marrone have the greatest .500 record and losing conference record in college football, he can also be credited for providing the facility on which all of our future success hinges on.

I mean, sure, why not? Let's just name the facility after him and commission a statue. By the way, Doug also is responsible for the Maxwell School's ranking, the creation of Otto the Orange, invented Varsity Pizza's sauce recipe, and fathered Jim Boeheim.

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Is this really that hard to think through? Nothing a coach or administration does happens in a vacuum. Good and bad from the previous coach gets handed to the next guy. So maybe the impetus for the IPF came from Doug's leaving? Does Doug get credit for that? Maybe some. How about Dr. Gross - using the situation to get something done? Maybe some. How about SS? I'm sure they asked his opinion? It's not black and white.

I could care less who deserves credit - just glad it's getting done.

 

[Crusty]

The guy was a highly regarded, and successful recruiter in the SEC. The lack of success wasn't from lack of effort or ability to target recruits. Adkins, Anselmo, and Shafer were all very good recruiters.

Time and again they lost high level recruits that they were in on early and had great relationships with because of the facilities and the silver on game day and the perception, reinforced by competing schools, that the school didn't support football like it should. Lost a number of kids to Rutgers because of that.

I don't know that he was a highly regarded and successful recruiter in the SEC, but even granting you that recruiting in the SEC is a bit different than in the rest of the world. I don't remember things the way you do. We were rarely in the conversation with top recruits, which by the way, always have great relationships with 5 0r 6 schools. Recruiters sell dreams and the best ones close - Doug couldn't sell his and he couldn't close.

Doug cooked his own goose with his NFL style offense. He couldn't sell it to skill players that wanted to spread it out and fling it. When he finally ran an exciting offense it was too late.

Just look at last year's class. With all the guys going to the NFL, an exciting offense and a big winning streak the class was a shaping up to be very mediocre even after great press. We were making slow steady progress in recruiting but that is about it.

Look what McDonald is doing. All these kids say the same thing - they trust him and that is the basis for their decisions. McDonald has it - Doug didn't.

I don't dump on Marrone but I won't deify him either.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't know that he was a highly regarded and successful recruiter in the SEC, but even granting you that recruiting in the SEC is a bit different than in the rest of the world. I don't remember things the way you do. We were rarely in the conversation with top recruits, which by the way, always have great relationships with 5 0r 6 schools. Recruiters sell dreams and the best ones close - Doug couldn't sell his and he couldn't close.

Doug cooked his own goose with his NFL style offense. He couldn't sell it to skill players that wanted to spread it out and fling it. When he finally ran an exciting offense it was too late.

Just look at last year's class. With all the guys going to the NFL, an exciting offense and a big winning streak the class was a shaping up to be very mediocre even after great press. We were making slow steady progress in recruiting but that is about it.

Look what McDonald is doing. All these kids say the same thing - they trust him and that is the basis for their decisions. McDonald has it - Doug didn't.

I don't dump on Marrone but I won't deify him either.

Right. At this point Doug and crew seem to get more out of marginal talent through superior scheme, while so far it seems like the opposite with this group of coaches. I usually will go with talent over scheme - but it would be nice to have both at the same time.

 

[Millhouse]

Yes. The board supported it. Had to reach a number on seed money.

I just have a really hard time believing the board said no to marrone and then said yes after he left.

it seems much believable that they set some threshold they needed to clear that happened to come after marrone got fed up

it's really hard to believe that the board would've been so shaken by marrone leaving - they wouldn't have taken him for granted that much, they would've heard the rumblings too.

there's also no way that they would've held back the money to force him out.

pretending like he did us some favor is baloney

 

[OrangePA]

I don't know that he was a highly regarded and successful recruiter in the SEC, but even granting you that recruiting in the SEC is a bit different than in the rest of the world. I don't remember things the way you do. We were rarely in the conversation with top recruits, which by the way, always have great relationships with 5 0r 6 schools. Recruiters sell dreams and the best ones close - Doug couldn't sell his and he couldn't close.

Doug cooked his own goose with his NFL style offense. He couldn't sell it to skill players that wanted to spread it out and fling it. When he finally ran an exciting offense it was too late.

Just look at last year's class. With all the guys going to the NFL, an exciting offense and a big winning streak the class was a shaping up to be very mediocre even after great press. We were making slow steady progress in recruiting but that is about it.

Look what McDonald is doing. All these kids say the same thing - they trust him and that is the basis for their decisions. McDonald has it - Doug didn't.

I don't dump on Marrone but I won't deify him either.

Last year's offense couldn't sell recruits?

 

[Millhouse]

Last year's offense couldn't sell recruits?

not when you leave immediately after the season

 

[IthacaBarrel]

The guy was a highly regarded, and successful recruiter in the SEC. The lack of success wasn't from lack of effort or ability to target recruits. Adkins, Anselmo, and Shafer were all very good recruiters.

Time and again they lost high level recruits that they were in on early and had great relationships with because of the facilities and the silver on game day and the perception, reinforced by competing schools, that the school didn't support football like it should. Lost a number of kids to Rutgers because of that.

Agree 100%, people make this much more difficult than it actually is. No fans, no facilities, equals a field day for other programs. I have had conversation with one coach in particular that use to recruit against Syracuse he said that was absolutely the angle that was taken time and time again and it worked, they didn't see Syracuse as a huge opposition because of it. This coach recruited against Syracuse for two different programs and the message was the same. He also said GROB was a very good recruiter but once he posted the first two disasterous seasons and people knew he had a train wreck on his hands he was all done as it was easy to tell he wasn't going to make it. I think when Marrone went 8-5 year 2 he hoped for more fans, more $$ for facilities. I really believe that when Doug took this job he planned on being here longer than he was, maybe not forever but 7-8 years.

 

[Crusty]

Right. At this point Doug and crew seem to get more out of marginal talent through superior scheme, while so far it seems like the opposite with this group of coaches. I usually will go with talent over scheme - but it would be nice to have both at the same time.

Yes, and with 20-20 hindsight DM would have been better off hiring a McDonald than Hackett. He hired a guy that was simpatico (for which Shafer gets blaster) instead of someone that had strengths he did not have. Very common mistake in all walks of life.

Here are my DM grades - what are yours?

• Overall Program Management - B+
• Recruiting - C
• Talent Evaluation - A+
• Players Development - A
• Game Planning - A
• Game Management - B
• Clock Management - B-
• Staff Management - B
• Alumnae Relations - C
• Former Player Relationships - D
• Press Relationships - B

Of course not all of these categories have the same importance but all matter to some degree.

 

[storange]

Coach Mac in his early years had 1. Crappy crowds, 2. The sac mac pac, Recruiting failures, but he just wouldnt quit on us. Marrone gave us the emotional I bleed orange and Im one of you BS when he was hired. So I understand thats the way its done today and JB type loyalty is a thing of the past. Then he showed me how much he regarded us by completely depleteing our staff. So be it. Now we stand at another critical crossraods because we dont know if this new staff has it which could set us back another 5 years. So I am not all that warm and fuzzy about DM. guess Im a jerk

 

[Crusty]

Last year's offense couldn't sell recruits?

As I say, by then it was too late - he was half way out the door.

 

[OrangePA]

not when you leave immediately after the season

No question.

You can't recruit if you leave the school.

 

[OrangePA]

Yes, and with 20-20 hindsight DM would have been better off hiring a McDonald than Hackett. He hired a guy that was simpatico (for which Shafer gets blaster) instead of someone that had strengths he did not have. Very common mistake in all walks of life.

Here are my DM grades - what are yours?

• Overall Program Management - B+
• Recruiting - C
• Talent Evaluation - A+
• Players Development - A
• Game Planning - A
• Game Management - B
• Clock Management - B-
• Staff Management - B
• Alumnae Relations - C
• Former Player Relationships - D
• Press Relationships - B

Of course not all of these categories have the same importance but all matter to some degree.

I find it hard to believe that he did not have very good Alumni relationships - I never heard a bad word from alums or parents - so I disagree with that grade.

And I disagree completely on recruiting and staff management and press relations.

 

[OrangePA]

Coach Mac in his early years had 1. Crappy crowds, 2. The sac mac pac, Recruiting failures, but he just wouldnt quit on us. Marrone gave us the emotional I bleed orange and Im one of you BS when he was hired. So I understand thats the way its done today and JB type loyalty is a thing of the past. Then he showed me how much he regarded us by completely depleteing our staff. So be it. Now we stand at another critical crossraods because we dont know if this new staff has it which could set us back another 5 years. So I am not all that warm and fuzzy about DM. guess Im a jerk

Mac also had nowhere to go before 1987.

And by that time he had been on the Hill for seven years.

 

[storange]

Mac also had nowhere to go before 1987.

And by that time he had been on the Hill for seven years.

yea but he had places to go after the 87 season he stayed on, I happen to know Macs daughter personally, The Macphersons love the CNY community, she still lives in the house that is walking dsistance from the Dome. The Patriots job was about the only job in the world that could lure Mac away and when Mac finally left the cupboard was very well stocked. It led to the great success we had in the 90s !

 

[Bayside44]

For a guy who completely oversold the whole career path thing to SU he was either completely ignorant or not that bright on how things have worked.

I mean recruiting, really? Jeez...and if if took a drive around town things are a lot different than the mid 80s. It doesn't take a ton of research to see where the finances are and how Mickey Mouse fundraising was.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Coach Mac in his early years had 1. Crappy crowds, 2. The sac mac pac, Recruiting failures, but he just wouldnt quit on us. Marrone gave us the emotional I bleed orange and Im one of you BS when he was hired. So I understand thats the way its done today and JB type loyalty is a thing of the past. Then he showed me how much he regarded us by completely depleteing our staff. So be it. Now we stand at another critical crossraods because we dont know if this new staff has it which could set us back another 5 years. So I am not all that warm and fuzzy about DM. guess Im a jerk

If Coach Mac was offered an NFL job in that time period, he would have left as well. Let's not act like Marrone left SU to go coach at Purdue or Utah- he left for the highest level in his profession.

 

[storange]

If Coach Mac was offered an NFL job in that time period, he would have left as well. Let's not act like Marrone left SU to go coach at Purdue or Utah- he left for the highest level in his profession.

Nope, he wouldn't have. I have a great source on that.

 

[Crusty]

I find it hard to believe that he did not have very good Alumni relationships - I never heard a bad word from alums or parents - so I disagree with that grade.

And I disagree completely on recruiting and staff management and press relations.

Fair enough. I know you disagree on recruiting - what do you give him for recruiting? And for the other areas?
BTW I gave him a B for staff management largely for his failure in Special Teams. I don't see how he gets higher in that category,
As for press relations, he got pretty surly many times and he never said anything but the same old same old - hard to write with a guy like that. He had his favorites like Dave (who wouldn't) but that doesn't sit well with others. I gave him a B so it is not like I gave him a C or something.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

My biggest issue with Syracuse football in general is the landscape has changed so much the past 15 years that it's very difficult to compete on a shoestring budget, people will then talk about the ACC but the donor base isn't there, so we will never be able to truly compete at a top 15 level, IMO. I think we can compete with the middle of the ACC which is fine ( I have accepted that for sure) but kids don't care about tradition at Syracuse football, sure the kids that come here do but for the most part they could give a rats ass. Our program has no greater chance of building a real winner than Duke, WF, NC St, UVA,BC, etc. I am fine with it but it will be very very difficult as the program is underfunded and the fanbase is dwindling by the day. I think what we have seen the past 3-4 years will be about as good as it gets for quite some time. I don't see this staff or the talent really improving things to ever be more than a 7-5, 6-6 type squad. Maybe 8-4, which would be great and hey considering where we were 4 years ago it isn't that bad.

 

[OrangeTarheel]

My biggest issue with Syracuse football in general is the landscape has changed so much the past 15 years that it's very difficult to compete on a shoestring budget, people will then talk about the ACC but the donor base isn't there, so we will never be able to truly compete at a top 15 level, IMO. I think we can compete with the middle of the ACC which is fine ( I have accepted that for sure) but kids don't care about tradition at Syracuse football, sure the kids that come here do but for the most part they could give a rats ass. Our program has no greater chance of building a real winner than Duke, WF, NC St, UVA,BC, etc. I am fine with it but it will be very very difficult as the program is underfunded and the fanbase is dwindling by the day. I think what we have seen the past 3-4 years will be about as good as it gets for quite some time. I don't see this staff or the talent really improving things to ever be more than a 7-5, 6-6 type squad. Maybe 8-4, which would be great and hey considering where we were 4 years ago it isn't that bad.

If what you mean by "shoe string budget" is the type of money it takes to attract and retain the best coaches then I agree completely. But I find it tough to believe that would be the case now that we are getting such a bump from inclusion in the ACC.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

If what you mean by "shoe string budget" is the type of money it takes to attract and retain the best coaches then I agree completely. But I find it tough to believe that would be the case now that we are getting such a bump from inclusion in the ACC.

Regardless of conference affiliation you cant run a top level BCS football program with very little donor base/ fan base. The ACC saved us from basically a death spiral and gives us a chance a foundation but with no donor base well we are Duke and Wake, which like I said they are decent program as this point

 

[orangenirvana]

Yes, and with 20-20 hindsight DM would have been better off hiring a McDonald than Hackett. He hired a guy that was simpatico (for which Shafer gets blaster) instead of someone that had strengths he did not have. Very common mistake in all walks of life.

Huh?

Marrone and Hackett are completely different types of people. It's not like they're friends who go way back.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Hmm my bad. I guess 10 years back then is equal to 3 years in this day and age. Whatever.

The obsession on this board not, directed to you personally, with Marrone leaving is infantile at Best Buy. They're only 32 jobs at the pinnacle of his profession. He has one of them now. He was never going to take a better college job because that would have been a direct slap in the face of his alma mater. Better job, better money, better lifestyle, better employee, easy choice.

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[OrangePA]

Fair enough. I know you disagree on recruiting - what do you give him for recruiting? And for the other areas?
BTW I gave him a B for staff management largely for his failure in Special Teams. I don't see how he gets higher in that category,
As for press relations, he got pretty surly many times and he never said anything but the same old same old - hard to write with a guy like that. He had his favorites like Dave (who wouldn't) but that doesn't sit well with others. I gave him a B so it is not like I gave him a C or something.

I would have to spend more time before giving a grade, but I don't think there is any doubt that the overall athletic ability of the team is vastly superior to where we were at the end of the 2008 season.

I love Reddish, Morgan, Eskridge, Tulley, Foy, Trudo, Morris, McFarland, Lynn, Davis, Spriull and on and on.

We have a ways to go but we are very athletic.

I found his press conferences to be very informative and interesting. I did not like it when for a few games during the 2011 season he tried to implement the Andy Reid approach - "I have to do a better job" - but I found that if you listened to him, he explained a lot about the game and the coaching profession.

 

[Millhouse]

My biggest issue with Syracuse football in general is the landscape has changed so much the past 15 years that it's very difficult to compete on a shoestring budget, people will then talk about the ACC but the donor base isn't there, so we will never be able to truly compete at a top 15 level, IMO. I think we can compete with the middle of the ACC which is fine ( I have accepted that for sure) but kids don't care about tradition at Syracuse football, sure the kids that come here do but for the most part they could give a rats ass. Our program has no greater chance of building a real winner than Duke, WF, NC St, UVA,BC, etc. I am fine with it but it will be very very difficult as the program is underfunded and the fanbase is dwindling by the day. I think what we have seen the past 3-4 years will be about as good as it gets for quite some time. I don't see this staff or the talent really improving things to ever be more than a 7-5, 6-6 type squad. Maybe 8-4, which would be great and hey considering where we were 4 years ago it isn't that bad.

part of the reason i'm so hung up on strategy is because it's low hanging fruit that doesn't cost anything.

fans of backwater non factories might not care as much about the NFL and might be more willing to go along with crazy stuff than people who've watched NFL game after NFL game. old habits die hard.

i like higher variance strategies because i prefer 10-2 and 2-10 to 6-6 (obviously oversimplifying)

Marrone was a really good teacher and leader but i don't think he was great on low hanging fruit. Hell, on Sunday he made two horrendous decisions to kick in the 4th quarter. He got away with it because he had Mario Williams.

Shafer is even worse. Putting the garage band back together is not a way to pluck low hanging fruit.