Marrone's poor game management skills | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Marrone's poor game management skills

kirbivore

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Maybe. But one is the Director of College Scouting for an NBA team and one is a head coach for a well-known college team.

Oh well.

LOOK AT ME!!!!
 

OrangePA

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Orange Pa pretty much thinks everybody is a good coach and that talent is the only determining factor in any sporting event. All Syracuse coaches are great! It's that damn talent why we suck!!!

I think there is some truth to what you say.

I think that at the major college level the margin between good coaching and bad coaching is very narrow. There are some great coaches - but very very few.

The guy I think about when people talk about coaching is Pete Carroll.

He was a mediocre coach at NE and with the Jets.

He became a Hall of Famer when he was at USC and had much more talent than anybody else.

He's back in the NFL and is pretty much mediocre again.

Coach Mac was very mediocre at SU until the talent level of the team got better.

I love him, but it took Carmello Anthony - the best college player that year - to get JB the NC.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you.
 

orangenirvana

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I think there is some truth to what you say.

I think that at the major college level the margin between good coaching and bad coaching is very narrow. There are some great coaches - but very very few.

The guy I think about when people talk about coaching is Pete Carroll.

He was a mediocre coach at NE and with the Jets.

He became a Hall of Famer when he was at USC and had much more talent than anybody else.

He's back in the NFL and is pretty much mediocre again.

Coach Mac was very mediocre at SU until the talent level of the team got better.

I love him, but it took Carmello Anthony - the best college player that year - to get JB the NC.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you.

I tend to agree with you about the margins. There are a few great coaches (Harbaugh, C.Kelly), a few horrendous coaches (Greg Robinson), then the rest.

However, the NFL and College ball are two completely different animals. You can't compare the two. Carroll is not a good example to support your point.
 

IthacaBarrel

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I think there is some truth to what you say.

I think that at the major college level the margin between good coaching and bad coaching is very narrow. There are some great coaches - but very very few.

The guy I think about when people talk about coaching is Pete Carroll.

He was a mediocre coach at NE and with the Jets.

He became a Hall of Famer when he was at USC and had much more talent than anybody else.

He's back in the NFL and is pretty much mediocre again.

Coach Mac was very mediocre at SU until the talent level of the team got better.

I love him, but it took Carmello Anthony - the best college player that year - to get JB the NC.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you.

I think at Syracuse you either need to be a great recruiter or a great coach to really be succesful. Some programs are much easier to recruit than say Syracuse, Harbaugh was both. Saban is probably both. I think Marrone is a below average recruiter and an average at best coach. I think Schiano is a great recruiter, below average coach. I think Dantonio is an average recruiter, very good coach. Golden great recruiter probably average coach. You need both to be really good at a non factory school. Syracuse needs both due to some limitations, great recruiter, good coach with good staff, that is where Mac fit in. I also think Marrone has a good pedigree which pumps up his repuaution a bit more than it should be. A guy like C Kelly was just the opposite as he was stuck at the 1AA level before Belotti hired him. Sure Marrone is going to make us better than Robinson but who wouldn't

The landscape of college football has changed so much that you can't even look back 10 years to determine who would be succesful today, it's a now business. Unfortunately for Syracuse to find great they would either need to roll the dice and take a big gamble or pay big money. Marrone was a safe hire following one of the worst hires of all time, they probably made the right call cosnidering financial limitations, conference affiliation, and the state of the program. It wasn't a very desirable position but probably limited on the risk side. Classic risk/reward scenario. I don't see greatness in Marrone, I see solid, respectbale, 7-5, 8-4, etc etc, which is great from where we were but I don't see top 15 program at any point. Again, keep in mind we are finishing year 3, not year one and we are currently 1-4 in the Big east which is really bad
 

Millhouse

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I tend to agree with you about the margins. There are a few great coaches (Harbaugh, C.Kelly), a few horrendous coaches (Greg Robinson), then the rest.

However, the NFL and College ball are two completely different animals. You can't compare the two. Carroll is not a good example to support your point.

i think there is a greater gap in systems than in coaches. which is why when people say "the game passed him by" it's not really an insult. is chip kelly really that great or does he just have great luck in knowing a system that happens to work great at the moment? it's why i'm completely hung up on systems and why i'm dying to know what marrone's actually is.

i think the air raid has a lot of longevity but we're not getting that. maybe eventually we get a read option attack out of lots of formations with a watered down WCO passing. Meh...
 

SoBristol

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I think there is some truth to what you say.

I think that at the major college level the margin between good coaching and bad coaching is very narrow. There are some great coaches - but very very few.

The guy I think about when people talk about coaching is Pete Carroll.

*******

Coach Mac was very mediocre at SU until the talent level of the team got better.

I love him, but it took Carmello Anthony - the best college player that year - to get JB the NC.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you.

I suppose you can say Coach Mac was "very mediocre" if you mean he couldn't work miracles with the very average talent he had in his first 4 years (other than beating Nebraska when it was #1). But he became a hall of fame coach because he rebuilt two programs (UMass and SU with some NFL time in between) into solid winning teams. We were talking about game management earlier, but Coach Mac was good at that, good as a sideline motivator, terrific at selling SU to kids (consider the skill kids he began to bring in as soon as his third season of recruiting), and great in interviews.

The sign of an outstanding coach is taking a program and making it several rungs better -- as, for example, Brad Stevens is doing at Butler. Other guys win (say at North Carolina) but the program was already at the top of the heap or was working with advantages (tradition, location, easy virtue -- say, Kentucky) that other schools don't have.

As for JB, he has been a consistent big winner, and won his share of contests against other very good coaches (Michigan State; North Carolina), although he has had recent issues with Pitino and Dixon. His 1996 team (John Wallace) wasn't picked to go far; it lost in the final two to an absolutely loaded KY team. His 2003 team has Melo, but was ranked only 12th or so before it made the run. Didn't hurt that Melo was always the best player on the court, and getting better week to week, but JB coached that team through a tough spot or two (Oklahoma State comes to mind) and it was his zone or his press that got the most out of that bunch.

Marrone -- hope the best game management days come when he has better skills guys to work with. So far, we know that Shafer can pull off some game day success, winning games last year when the offense struggled.
 

IthacaBarrel

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I suppose you can say Coach Mac was "very mediocre" if you mean he couldn't work miracles with the very average talent he had in his first 4 years (other than beating Nebraska when it was #1). But he became a hall of fame coach because he rebuilt two programs (UMass and SU with some NFL time in between) into solid winning teams. We were talking about game management earlier, but Coach Mac was good at that, good as a sideline motivator, terrific at selling SU to kids (consider the skill kids he began to bring in as soon as his third season of recruiting), and great in interviews.

The sign of an outstanding coach is taking a program and making it several rungs better -- as, for example, Brad Stevens is doing at Butler. Other guys win (say at North Carolina) but the program was already at the top of the heap or was working with advantages (tradition and location -- say, Kentucky) that other schools don't have.

As for JB, he has been a consistent big winner, and won his share of contests against other very good coaches (Michigan State; North Carolina), although he has had recent issues with Pitino and Dixon. His 1996 team (John Wallace) wasn't picked to go far; it lost in the final two to an absolutely loaded KY team. His 2003 team has Melo, but was ranked only 12th or so before it made the run. Didn't hurt that Melo was always the best player on the court, and getting better week to week, but JB coached that team through a tough spot or two (Oklahoma State comes to mind) and it was his zone or his press that got the most out of that bunch.

Marrone -- hope the best game management days come when he has better skills guys to work with. So far, we know that Shafer can pull off some game day success, winning games last year when the offense struggled.

Again whether people want to admit it or not college football has changed, you use to get 5 years to rebuild, now you get 3 maybe 4. Dooley at Tennessee could be gone this year after year 2 if they lose their last two but certainly year 3. marrone has a good year last year and the reason why people are willing to write this year off but he needs to get to at least 6 wins to spin it, 7 would be about expectations being met. People need to remember the conference as well

In addition, the recruiting has not been very good either so that is another issue as well
 

orangenirvana

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Again whether people want to admit it or not college football has changed, you use to get 5 years to rebuild, now you get 3 maybe 4.

Why?

It usually depends on the situation (how rough a state the program was in, steady progress on and off the field), but I'd say five years is the minimum number of years a coach should be given to rebuild a program unless he's an obvious failure like Robinson.

I don't buy the "College football is different now" notion.
 

IthacaBarrel

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Why?

It usually depends on the situation (how rough a state the program was in, steady progress on and off the field), but I'd say five years is the minimum number of years a coach should be given to rebuild a program unless he's an obvious failure like Robinson.

I don't buy the "College football is different now" notion.

Well look at the past history of coaches.. Boosters and even Ad's wont wait five years, show me a program in the last 5 years that has waited 5 years to rebuild. Miami, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana,Ole Miss (2x) Tennessee won't wait 5 years, Wash St didn't wait 5, Washington didn't wait. Weiss didn't get 5 years, College football is different now then it use to be. Florida won't wait 5 years if Muschamp doesn't get better.
 

OrangePA

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I think at Syracuse you either need to be a great recruiter or a great coach to really be succesful. Some programs are much easier to recruit than say Syracuse, Harbaugh was both. Saban is probably both. I think Marrone is a below average recruiter and an average at best coach. I think Schiano is a great recruiter, below average coach. I think Dantonio is an average recruiter, very good coach. Golden great recruiter probably average coach. You need both to be really good at a non factory school. Syracuse needs both due to some limitations, great recruiter, good coach with good staff, that is where Mac fit in. I also think Marrone has a good pedigree which pumps up his repuaution a bit more than it should be. A guy like C Kelly was just the opposite as he was stuck at the 1AA level before Belotti hired him. Sure Marrone is going to make us better than Robinson but who wouldn't

The landscape of college football has changed so much that you can't even look back 10 years to determine who would be succesful today, it's a now business. Unfortunately for Syracuse to find great they would either need to roll the dice and take a big gamble or pay big money. Marrone was a safe hire following one of the worst hires of all time, they probably made the right call cosnidering financial limitations, conference affiliation, and the state of the program. It wasn't a very desirable position but probably limited on the risk side. Classic risk/reward scenario. I don't see greatness in Marrone, I see solid, respectbale, 7-5, 8-4, etc etc, which is great from where we were but I don't see top 15 program at any point. Again, keep in mind we are finishing year 3, not year one and we are currently 1-4 in the Big east which is really bad

I have been told many times by people I respect and who know the business that your expectations set forth above are accurate.

I hope that we can do better than that, but that's what many who know expect.

There will be an occassional top ten and top five finish. But it will be difficult to consistently play at that level or so I have been told.

I feel that Marrone is a very solid coach who knows what he is doing and is the right fit for Syracuse University.
 

OrangePA

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I suppose you can say Coach Mac was "very mediocre" if you mean he couldn't work miracles with the very average talent he had in his first 4 years (other than beating Nebraska when it was #1). But he became a hall of fame coach because he rebuilt two programs (UMass and SU with some NFL time in between) into solid winning teams. We were talking about game management earlier, but Coach Mac was good at that, good as a sideline motivator, terrific at selling SU to kids (consider the skill kids he began to bring in as soon as his third season of recruiting), and great in interviews.

The sign of an outstanding coach is taking a program and making it several rungs better -- as, for example, Brad Stevens is doing at Butler. Other guys win (say at North Carolina) but the program was already at the top of the heap or was working with advantages (tradition, location, easy virtue -- say, Kentucky) that other schools don't have.

As for JB, he has been a consistent big winner, and won his share of contests against other very good coaches (Michigan State; North Carolina), although he has had recent issues with Pitino and Dixon. His 1996 team (John Wallace) wasn't picked to go far; it lost in the final two to an absolutely loaded KY team. His 2003 team has Melo, but was ranked only 12th or so before it made the run. Didn't hurt that Melo was always the best player on the court, and getting better week to week, but JB coached that team through a tough spot or two (Oklahoma State comes to mind) and it was his zone or his press that got the most out of that bunch.

Marrone -- hope the best game management days come when he has better skills guys to work with. So far, we know that Shafer can pull off some game day success, winning games last year when the offense struggled.

I don't know if you were there in 1980-81, but Coach Mac inherited a team that many in 1980 expected to play pretty well. He failed to immediately improve that team. In fact, the team went the other way for awhile.

I never recall anybody feeling that Mac was a great interview. He was amusing but certainly not slick when it came to the media. There is no doubt that parents liked him.

And, it took him five years to field a pretty good team - 1985. And the next year he went sub .500.

And the "Sac Mac Pac" was at full strength.

I recall many wanted him gone at the begining of 1987.
 

OrangePA

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i think there is a greater gap in systems than in coaches. which is why when people say "the game passed him by" it's not really an insult. is chip kelly really that great or does he just have great luck in knowing a system that happens to work great at the moment? it's why i'm completely hung up on systems and why i'm dying to know what marrone's actually is.

i think the air raid has a lot of longevity but we're not getting that. maybe eventually we get a read option attack out of lots of formations with a watered down WCO passing. Meh...

Chip Kelly is not lucky, he has gobs of money.

Give me that kind of support and I'll win football games at the college level.
 

SoBristol

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I don't know if you were there in 1980-81, but Coach Mac inherited a team that many in 1980 expected to play pretty well. He failed to immediately improve that team. In fact, the team went the other way for awhile.

I never recall anybody feeling that Mac was a great interview. He was amusing but certainly not slick when it came to the media. There is no doubt that parents liked him.

And, it took him five years to field a pretty good team - 1985. And the next year he went sub .500.

And the "Sac Mac Pac" was at full strength.

I recall many wanted him gone at the begining of 1987.
Have to admit that my SU associations trace back to watching Jim Brown. So, yes, I know what Coach Mac inherited and I saw many, many of his interviews. He had Joe Morris on that team he inherited, they had some hopes, but not much on defense. I would characterize it as an average team. Part of the reason Frank Maloney was released was that he was not upgrading the talent -- recruiting OK, but not better year over year, and declining rather than improving. The AD felt Mac would be better (using the new Dome) at lifting the program.
Sure, Mac took flac for his first 3 years, and he tells a good story about that. The "Sac Mac Pac" -- well, there are always those sorts of people, who don't see what is going on in building a program. By an odd coincidence, I recently found the Nebraska game program (September 1984) with Tim Green on the cover. Check the list of frosh and RF on the roster. You can see the talent that Mac had brought in -- the guys that led the team in 1987 (McPherson, Johnston, Kane, Paul, Philcox, Frase, Glover, Pat Kelly . . .). If you know SU football at all, you know what Mac did to upgrade the talent through his personal efforts in the recruiting wars -- the upgrade got going, and he left PP a full cupboard.

As for Mac's interviews, I have to question your comment. Mac was energy, he was funny, he had that Irish charm. You want to know what upgraded SU football -- one part the Dome, and two parts the charm Mac brought as a closer when he got one on one with prospects and families. (Although I would also give credit to the quality of the assistant coaches Mac brought to SU.)
 

SmilinBob

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Mac had a hell of a staff there is no doubt about that.

Out of curiosity, what side of the ball did Coach Ben play? Marrone is the first offensive side of the ball HC we have had in my life unless Ben was on that side of the ball as well.
 

SoBristol

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Per Wiki, Ben played C at West Virginia, was captain, and wrestled in the 155 lb weight class. But I expect he played in one platoon football -- must have been a linebacker. I go back pretty far with SU, but Ben's playing days at WVa were in the early 1930s. He was creative with his offense, but all he needed was good blocking for an excellent string of RBs, plus FBs like Czonka and Nance, and the occasional pass to Ernie Davis. Helps to have talent.
Oddly, our current DC (Shafer) was a QB during his playing days, so we are loaded with offensive talent in our coaching ranks. Maybe one day it will show.
 

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