Middling program?

[AZOrange]

No one believes me now, but the two years before Melo showed up, the students were way more into the football team.

i believe you...

 

[dollarbill44]

When I think middling program, I think of Boston College and Seton Hall.

Yeah. Middling to me is a perennial NIT team with an occasional NCAA appearance. Not one that reaches the Sweet 16 2 out of 3 years. Btw, that 2000 team with Hart, Thomas and Blackwell was very good. They just had the misfortune of meeting MSU in the sweet 16. Any other region and they may have been FF that year.

 

[AZOrange]

Yeah. Middling to me is a perennial NIT team with an occasional NCAA appearance. Not one that reaches the Sweet 16 2 out of 3 years. Btw, that 2000 team with Hart, Thomas and Blackwell was very good. They just had the misfortune of meeting MSU in the sweet 16. Any other region and they may have been FF that year.

2000-01 and 2001-02 were just brutal. honestly after 2001-02, I wasnt sure we would ever be back...and then out of nowhere came Carmelo...

 

[dollarbill44]

2000-01 and 2001-02 were just brutal. honestly after 2001-02, I wasnt sure we would ever be back...and then out of nowhere came Carmelo...

Just brutal by SU standards, not of a middling program. Heck, one of those years we made the 2nd round of the NCAA. I can't believe you would question a program after one season of NIT, especially given SU's history under JB. Either you're being melodramatic or you really lacked perspective at that point in your life.

 

[NKR1978]

2000-01 and 2001-02 were just brutal. honestly after 2001-02, I wasnt sure we would ever be back...and then out of nowhere came Carmelo...

01-02 was brutal. Just an unlikable team. MeShaun on his own was bad enough, but didn't Thues get into a fist fight with Hop?

Amazing what rose from the ashes.

Another thing people are forgetting is that there was absolutely no buzz around the program. It was definitely on the decline at that point in time. Even the mini-slump with the 05-06, 06-07, 07-08 teams had their moments of glory. 00-01 wasn't awful, but the 35 point loss to Kansas in an empty arena on a Sunday afternoon was just blah. You can't even get upset at that kind of ass kicking.

 

[AZOrange]

Just brutal by SU standards, not of a middling program. Heck, one of those years we made the 2nd round of the NCAA. I can't believe you would question a program after one season of NIT, especially given SU's history under JB. Either you're being melodramatic or you really lacked perspective at that point in your life.

or maybe i was too clos". katz said they had "become a middling program" at that time. I dont think that is a terrible statement. The second round of the NCAAs we got throttled by Kansas right? And we were playing guys like Billy Celuck who was more famous for his late night escapades than anything he did on the court. In addition to the terrible play on the court in 2001-02 you had all the drama between Preston and Deshaun (alot of which did not play out in the media or publicly). We got a pretty good class with Forth, Pace, Edelin, Konecny and Warrick. Within a couple months Konecny was gone, Edelin was out of school and all the other stuff unfolded...Those were very dark days indeed.

 

[OttoMets]

Certainly looks closer to "middling" than it does "elite" - Nowhere in that 5-year resume above do I see a program that resembles top-10 or even top-20 status.

I also see that you conveniently left off 1997 - You know, the season where 'Cuse went 19-13 and got BLOWN OUT by Florida State (at home) in the 1st round of the NIT - Quite the definition of "middling" if you asked me.

So now we have a 6-year sample (1997-2002) where Cuse was a low seed twice (99, 2001) and went to the NIT twice (97, 02).

The two years where 'Cuse had a decent seed (98, 00) they lost in the Sweet 16 to higher ranked squads - Not exactly awesome.

Also, rather than saying we "lost" to Kansas in 2001, you might wanna say we were DESTROYED by Kansas. Quite possibly one of the worst performances by a Boeheim-coached team I've ever seen.

It's easy to look back from the perch that is Syracuse 2003-2011 and disagree with Katz, but anyone who lived through Syracuse 1997- 2002 and has a clear memory of it would hardly say it was a positive experience.

Yeah, "middling" seems like a pretty diplomatic way to put it. At the time, those were disappointing teams. With the benefit of hindsight, that was a rough era.

Between Wallace and the 2001 high school class, we had next to no sought-after recruits actually play for us. Thues, Celuck, Davis, Cole were brought in. The Florida State loss in 1997 was the first time I thought both Boeheim and the players gave up on a game. We lost in two different Carrier Classics. Three of the worst-ever Boeheim-era losses (1996 Kentucky, 1996 West Virginia, and 2001 Kansas) occurred during this time period. (EDITED - found the attendance numbers) And this was the stretch that saw Dome attendance plummet; this is when the drop from #1 to #4 occurred, as we lost ~6,000 season ticketholders and went from 24,500/game to 17,500/game.

The 1999-2000 team was a legitimate talented group of well-coached, under-recruited guys. Nearly everything else between 1996 and 2002 involved cast-off recruits trying to hang on and win games.

 

[CorduroyG]

Certainly looks closer to "middling" than it does "elite" - Nowhere in that 5-year resume above do I see a program that resembles top-10 or even top-20 status.

I also see that you conveniently left off 1997 - You know, the season where 'Cuse went 19-13 and got BLOWN OUT by Florida State (at home) in the 1st round of the NIT - Quite the definition of "middling" if you asked me.

So now we have a 6-year sample (1997-2002) where Cuse was a low seed twice (99, 2001) and went to the NIT twice (97, 02).

The two years where 'Cuse had a decent seed (98, 00) they lost in the Sweet 16 to higher ranked squads - Not exactly awesome.

Also, rather than saying we "lost" to Kansas in 2001, you might wanna say we were DESTROYED by Kansas. Quite possibly one of the worst performances by a Boeheim-coached team I've ever seen.

It's easy to look back from the perch that is Syracuse 2003-2011 and disagree with Katz, but anyone who lived through Syracuse 1997- 2002 and has a clear memory of it would hardly say it was a positive experience.

LOL, dude you're doing the same thing you're complaining about.

I see that you conveniently left off 1996 - you know, the season where cuse won 29 games and made the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

So we have a 7 year sample (1996-2002) where Cuse made 2 sweet 16's and 1 championship game. Not exactly "middling". You know how many teams would want that kinda resume during those 7 years?

Late 90s/early 00s was hardly the golden age of syracuse hoops, but it was hardly middling.

 

[PoppyHart]

I'd go with "struggling", "down", or "tepid" over middling.

 

[AZOrange]

LOL, dude you're doing the same thing you're complaining about.

I see that you conveniently left off 1996 - you know, the season where cuse won 29 games and made the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

So we have a 7 year sample (1996-2002) where Cuse made 2 sweet 16's and 1 championship game. Not exactly "middling". You know how many teams would want that kinda resume during those 7 years?

Late 90s/early 00s was hardly the golden age of syracuse hoops, but it was hardly middling.

To be clear he said "become middling" 2002 looked alot different than 1996 or 1999. That was a pretty dark time.

 

[OttoMets]

LOL, dude you're doing the same thing you're complaining about.

I see that you conveniently left off 1996 - you know, the season where cuse won 29 games and made the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

So we have a 7 year sample (1996-2002) where Cuse made 2 sweet 16's and 1 championship game. Not exactly "middling". You know how many teams would want that kinda resume during those 7 years?

Late 90s/early 00s was hardly the golden age of syracuse hoops, but it was hardly middling.

If that looks like cherrypicking, we could just be honest and settle on the ten-year post-probation period: 1992-93 through 2001-2002.

It's a startling drop-off, with a couple nice seasons sandwiched in. Katz didn't call those teams "bad" or "mediocre" - just "middling." Some good, some bad (including '96-'97, which was either the worst or second-worst of Boeheim's career, depending on your view of the Dynasty team). Sounds pretty middling to me.

 

[baggerbob]

From 1985-86-1990-91 we won 26,31,26,30,26,26 last year of Pearl to last year of Owens than probation except for a few years in between we were middling until 2002-03

 

[CusefanATL]

Got a kick out of this line from the Katz story on JB that ran tonight.

That's when the Orange signed Carmelo Anthony, Gerry McNamara, Craig Forth and Billy Edelin and changed the fortunes of what had become a middling program, winning the NCAA title in 2003.

Hey, Andy, Syracuse had won 20 or more games 19 of the previous 20 seasons and were 23-13, 25-9 and 26-6 the previous three seasons before winning the NCAA title.

Middling program? Whatever you say.

With the exception of '00 season, absolutely middling program.

The 96 recruiting 'semi-flop' really hurt us. Talking Walton, Lloyd, and Howard leaving. Obviously hart, Thomas, and later blackwell help salvage that their sr yr.

 

[1040su]

The Hooper years, it sure felt like we were a middling program. Does anyone here remember Hooper?

It was a puppet doll all the students waved around when the other team shot free throws in front of the student section. It was an idea pushed by the athletic department, IIRC. It was seriously pathetic.

A couple of students dressed up as King and Queen of Hooperville, oh God, it was embarrassing, mid-major stuff.

No one believes me now, but the two years before Melo showed up, the students were way more into the football team.

I still have Hooper & I also still have the football version "Nate!" I believe named for Nate Trout. I wasn't a student, just a corny, old townie!

 

[dollarbill44]

or maybe i was too clos". katz said they had "become a middling program" at that time. I dont think that is a terrible statement. The second round of the NCAAs we got throttled by Kansas right? And we were playing guys like Billy Celuck who was more famous for his late night escapades than anything he did on the court. In addition to the terrible play on the court in 2001-02 you had all the drama between Preston and Deshaun (alot of which did not play out in the media or publicly). We got a pretty good class with Forth, Pace, Edelin, Konecny and Warrick. Within a couple months Konecny was gone, Edelin was out of school and all the other stuff unfolded...Those were very dark days indeed.

My point remains that they were "dark days" for programs like SU. Celuck's PT aside, 20 wins and 2nd round of the NCAA is not a "middling program". Take the "middling" teams from any big conference and they would be quite happy with that 5-year span.

 

[Cadillac]

A Nate Trout hand puppet... that is great.

I bought a Hooper for my kid brother and it's somewhere at my folks' house. I have to find it.

 

[kirbivore]

Got a kick out of this line from the Katz story on JB that ran tonight.

That's when the Orange signed Carmelo Anthony, Gerry McNamara, Craig Forth and Billy Edelin and changed the fortunes of what had become a middling program, winning the NCAA title in 2003.

Hey, Andy, Syracuse had won 20 or more games 19 of the previous 20 seasons and were 23-13, 25-9 and 26-6 the previous three seasons before winning the NCAA title.

Middling program? Whatever you say.

in between the most recent final four's (1997-2002) SU's post season went as follows:
1997 NIT
1998 NCAA sweet 16 (#5 seed)
1999 NCAA 1st round (#8 seed)
2000 NCAA sweet 16 (#4 seed)
2001 NCAA 2nd round (#5 seed)
2002 NIT

not a great 6 year run but "middling"? I can think of many BCS programs that would kill for that 6 year run.

 

[kirbivore]

Yeah. Middling to me is a perennial NIT team with an occasional NCAA appearance. Not one that reaches the Sweet 16 2 out of 3 years. Btw, that 2000 team with Hart, Thomas and Blackwell was very good. They just had the misfortune of meeting MSU in the sweet 16. Any other region and they may have been FF that year.

That quarterfinal loss to G'town in the BET flucked SU in the NCAA seedings. They go out in the BET semi's they may still get a 4 seed but not the one that gets MSU's bracket.

 

[Czar]

Didn't the uptick in Syracuse basketball come a the same time that Hopkins became the main recruiter over Fine?

 

[Knicks411]

Didn't the uptick in Syracuse basketball come a the same time that Hopkins became the main recruiter over Fine?

Which I'm 99% sure was the entire point of the middling comment. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if that phrase came from whoever was Andy's source. Obviously Andy isn't obligated to use it.

Thanks for some of the color on those years, btw. I came to school in August of 2002. I'm certainly aware of what happened in the years prior, but always enjoy the history lessons anyway.

 

[ForeverOrange]

Didn't the uptick in Syracuse basketball come a the same time that Hopkins became the main recruiter over Fine?

The combination of Weaver and Hopkins in my opionion. There's a few ways to look at this, im sure in most of the fanbases eyes we were not middling, but there is a general perception that a lot of those "successful" seasons were aided by "cup cake" scheduling, and that once the NCAA started tracking the scheduling and RPI more we had a couple seasons where we won a lot of games but didn't make the NCAA. I remember that game against Kansas in the NCAA and honestly, it was embarassing. If I'm not mistaken Pitino was one of the people calling the game, and he commented something to the fact that we didn't look like a tournament team.

 

[longtimefan]

Certainly looks closer to "middling" than it does "elite" - Nowhere in that 5-year resume above do I see a program that resembles top-10 or even top-20 status.

I also see that you conveniently left off 1997 - You know, the season where 'Cuse went 19-13 and got BLOWN OUT by Florida State (at home) in the 1st round of the NIT - Quite the definition of "middling" if you asked me.

I don't think either "middling" or "elite" is the proper term. There's something in between those two. Now, recruiting had become middling, but the performance on the court was better than that. Good coaching, I expect.

And, it's interesting that you expanded the sample size to include 1997, but didn't go back just one more year to include the championship game squad of 1996. Most any statistic can be manipulated a bit to fit one's purposes.

 

[Cuse_1999]

LOL, dude you're doing the same thing you're complaining about.

I see that you conveniently left off 1996 - you know, the season where cuse won 29 games and made the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

So we have a 7 year sample (1996-2002) where Cuse made 2 sweet 16's and 1 championship game. Not exactly "middling". You know how many teams would want that kinda resume during those 7 years?

Late 90s/early 00s was hardly the golden age of syracuse hoops, but it was hardly middling.

Damn, you beat me to it. And I didn't conveniently leave out 97. I took a 5 year sample. Pretty standard samples, 5 years, 10 years etc... Don't see too many people using the 6 year barometer

 

[OttoMets]

Middling = "of average quality."

If that doesn't sum up those years, I don't know what does. Any other adjectives? Hooper-esque?

 

[dollarbill44]

Middling = "of average quality."

If that doesn't sum up those years, I don't know what does. Any other adjectives? Hooper-esque?

Out of the 243 or so teams in D1, what is the average number of wins? 34 at-large NCAA bids is above average, no matter how you slice it. 1st round win in NCAA tourney is not average. Again, you guys are judging SU as "middling" based on top-end programs, NOT average programs. The average program makes the NCAA one out of 3 or 4 years, if that.