Muhammad Ali has passed away

[Cowtown]

Spot-on post. I "interviewed" Ali twice in Cleveland in the '70s -- you didn't interview him, he was just on auto-pilot -- and he was majestic, magical, magnificent. He was always "on," which made it all the sadder to, ironically, see him struggle to muster as much as a whisper for about the last half of his life.

I'm 67, have no regrets in life, none, if I had a mulligan, though, I’d have had someone snap a pic of me "interviewing" Ali in the locker room at the Cleveland Arena following a charity show that, I'm pretty sure, was Don King’s first production after he came home from "college."

As to his size, I was surprised how tall and muscular he was up close. Great experience -- and great memory -- sitting at press row and watching the tassels on his shoes flutter when he went into the Ali Shuffle 10 feet away from my pre-spectacled eyes.

Saw Ali speak in my college gym, too, during his forced exile from boxing. He was great. You're so right, Crusty, the SCOTUS did its job well when it unanimously riled Ali had been done wrong. So, so wrong. I remember the personal joy when that ruling came down and I set out on Akron's main downtown drag to interview people for the daily rag. He was so much more than a boxer. I'm glad social media and hate radio didn't exist when he was in his prime.

He was, no question, The Greatest. My heart starts beating faster thinking back to maybe my greatest sports thrill ever, watching Ali, on closed-circuit at the Akron Armory, pull out the rope-a-dope and do the unthinkable -- topple big, bad, ol' George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle. I was standing on a chair, screaming, rejoicing, hugging strangers like it was V-J Day in Times Square. I was hoarse for two days.

The only thing I regret and troubles me is how Ali abandoned his close friend and adviser Malcolm, who had Ali's best interests in mind unlike Herbert Muhammad and all those phony hangers-on. Ali felt forced to pick sides, sad, he knew what Malcolm's ultimate fate would be when he abandoned him.

I guess nobody, even Ali, is perfect.

Thanks for sharing those stories. I'm 65, so we both know something of what it was like to be a teenager in America when Ali was in his prime. Ali was an eye-opener for me. I was a skinny white kid from upstate NY living in a town of 5,000, but where there was only one black family. I don't think I ever noticed that as "unusual" until I got a little older, competing in sports with city schools (mostly around Binghamton) where there were more black kids and athletes.

Anyway, my teen years were very different from those of a black kid who grew up in an inner city neighborhood. And while I didn't actually understand it at the time, Ali helped me to see, understand and accept there was another way of seeing the world around me, different from the way I had grown up: John Wayne movies, Mom, God and apple pie, '57 Chevies and the Beach Boys & Beatles, etc. I hadn't liked Ali much at first because he was different, said different things from what I'd been brought up to think I believed in. So, through him I began to understand that other people had different life experiences and a different story to tell.

So when I got to college in the late 60's - and I'm sure we both remember how complex it all was then - I was more receptive to first acknowledging there were these differences, and then to try to understand more about them. When Ali stood up for a principle - or several of them - what was important was why he did. I had to think about what was really being said and done, both by him but also in the world in which he lived. And the older I became, the more I understood just how great were the steps he took, how brave and tough he had to be to continue being the man he was.

Now, I'm pretty sure he was no saint, and neither am I, but he showed me it was important to take a wider view of my life, and if that meant I believed in something outside the norm, that was okay, too. And so although I never met him, I was better for knowing of him.

 

[MiniCuse]

I had a chance to meet Ali once and I missed it. I was on liberty in Dubai on the U.S.S. George Washington. I came back to the ship that afternoon and as I was walking up the brow I looked over at the officer's/VIP brow and I see a group walking down it. I look closer and think to myself, "That looks like Muhammed Ali." Sure as , he had come onboard that morning for a tour and stayed for several hours meeting people, posing for pictures, signing autographs, etc. There was no announcement he was coming onto the ship, nothing. I left the ship before he arrived and his group was leaving as I was coming back. To this day, I'm still mad I missed meeting the GOAT, literally, by a few minutes. RIP.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Ali was truly the people's champion. I ran into him twice on the streets of NYC in the early 1970's. Within minutes if stepping out of his limo he was surrounded by dozebs of fans. He joked with everyone and made a fuss over all the kids in the crowd. Signed autographs for anyone who wanted one. I was surprised how big he was.

I thing it was one of the SCOTUS better moments when they unanimously exonerated him.

RIP champ, you are The Greatest.

Nice post...that was Ali. He loved people.
Even if you disagreed with his positions you had to admire his courage in standing up for them.
He revolutionized sports culture in America (for better or worse) and had a huge impact beyond it.

One little point. The Supreme Court didn't quite "exonerate" him. It never said he was within his rights.
It reversed his conviction on what might really be called a legal technicality: that there was no record of what part of the law was being relied on to convict him, so the conviction had to overturned.

According to Bob Woodward's book "The Brethren"...the first court vote was split 4-4 (Justice Marshall abstained). Then they came up with this little angle to get a unanimous 8-0 decision.

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

RIP. the Greatest.

 

[Townie72]

Ishmel Reed's OpEd Piece in the NYT had it right in the title: "
Muhammad Ali: Worshiped. Misunderstood. Exploited."

I've read some of that worship on here.

As a Boxer - He was quite simply the best ever. He was a heavyweight with the moves, speed and reaction of a middleweight.

As a Showman and Entertainer - He captured the attention of the country and there were those that loved him and many that did not. Some of those that disliked him didn't like his brashness. Athletes at that time were uniformly humble. "I am the Greatest", set millions of sets of teeth on edge. "They all must fall in the round I call." was more boastful than anything anyone had ever heard from a sports figure.

Some of those who disliked him were on the other side of the political fence and the nascent culture war from where he was. The Nation was deeply-divided in the late 1960's .

Exploited? - without question.

 

[Crusty]

Nice post...that was Ali. He loved people.
Even if you disagreed with his positions you had to admire his courage in standing up for them.
He revolutionized sports culture in America (for better or worse) and had a huge impact beyond it.

One little point. The Supreme Court didn't quite "exonerate" him. It never said he was within his rights.
It reversed his conviction on what might really be called a legal technicality: that there was no record of what part of the law was being relied on to convict him, so the conviction had to overturned.

According to Bob Woodward's book "The Brethren"...the first court vote was split 4-4 (Justice Marshall abstained). Then they came up with this little angle to get a unanimous 8-0 decision.

Sure, the SCOTUS doesn't exonerate, they determine matters of law and generally leave matter if fact to the trial court. According to the movie about it, "Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight", some justices didn't want to set a broad precedent. The technicality was used to limit the precedential value and to achieve a unanimous vote. However, a majority agreed his beliefs were sincere and that he qualified for conscientious objector status. Without that belief the technically would not have been used.
As I recall, the case was not remanded to the lower court to correct the "error". I think this was an example of the court finding a path to justice.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Ishmel Reed's OpEd Piece in the NYT had it right in the title: "
Muhammad Ali: Worshiped. Misunderstood. Exploited."

I've read some of that worship on here.

As a Boxer - He was quite simply the best ever. He was a heavyweight with the moves, speed and reaction of a middleweight.

As a Showman and Entertainer - He captured the attention of the country and there were those that loved him and many that did not. Some of those that disliked him didn't like his brashness. Athletes at that time were uniformly humble. "I am the Greatest", set millions of sets of teeth on edge. "They all must fall in the round I call." was more boastful than anything anyone had ever heard from a sports figure.

Some of those who disliked him were on the other side of the political fence and the nascent culture war from where he was. The Nation was deeply-divided in the late 1960's .

Exploited? - without question.

Thought provoking post.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Sure, the SCOTUS doesn't exonerate, they determine matters of law and generally leave matter if fact to the trial court. According to the movie about it, "Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight", some justices didn't want to set a broad precedent. The technicality was used to limit the precedential value and to achieve a unanimous vote. However, a majority agreed his beliefs were sincere and that he qualified for conscientious objector status. Without that belief the technically would not have been used.
As I recall, the case was not remanded to the lower court to correct the "error". I think this was an example of the court finding a path to justice.

SOMEONE missed his calling as an attorney!

 

[MSOrange]

I lived in the Atlanta area during the Olympics in 1996. I normally don't watch all of the opening ceremony but I did that year because it was really cool to have the spotlight of the entire world on your city.

There was a lot of speculation about who would light the torch, but there were absolutely no leaks, which was shocking. I remember a lot of people were thinking Evander Holyfield because of his Atlanta ties and Olympic experience. As they were running into the stadium, I swear I told my dad I bet it would be Muhammad Ali, basically just talking to hear the sound of my own voice. Then Holyfield handed off to Janet Evans and I figured that was it. That was so awesome to see Ali come out from seemingly nowhere to take it from Janet Evans and light the flame. I still remember that look my dad gave me when my stupid comment turned out to be right. I was only 5 when Ali had his last fight but I know enough sports history to know how awesome that moment was. I even got a little teary-eyed. Atlanta got criticized a lot for certain things at that Olympics, many rightfully so, but they sure got that moment right.

 

[Toga]

Celebrate Muhammad Ali’s life with quotes that will live on forever (7 Photos)

 

[cuseattle]

I want to add to this tribute thread just to say I will miss that man. He made everyone he touched better. And he was pretty. RIP the greatest.

 

[Newhouser]

I don't think the younger people I work with are understanding just how famous and polarizing Ali was. Living his entire professional life pre-internet, and being as world famous as he was, simply remarkable. I can't think of a star today who rivals the place he had in world society in the 60's and 70's.

 

[Townie72]

I don't think the younger people I work with are understanding just how famous and polarizing Ali was. Living his entire professional life pre-internet, and being as world famous as he was, simply remarkable. I can't think of a star today who rivals the place he had in world society in the 60's and 70's.

At least some of Ali's bombast and schtick resulted in him and Boxing gaining public attention, selling tickets and building large TV audiences (including the first in-theater Pay TV audiences).

Baseball was the big deal in the US through the first half of the 1960's. College football was popular and Boxing may have been the #3 sport in the US. Very few people watched the NFL and the NBA (which had franchises in places like Rochester and Syracuse)

But when Ali came on the scene in 1964, boxing was waning as a sport. He revitalized it and re-focused public attention on Boxing. Polarization was part of it. Ali and the Boxing establishment didn't care if you bought tickets to see Ali win or to see him lose.

I always had a soft spot for Clay/Ali as I had won a lot of money (a serious amount) on the Feb, 64 fight against Liston. I was stationed on a large air base in the Far East. My roommate was a black guy from Indianapolis, Mike Coe, who was an ex-Golden Gloves boxer and was so somehow still tied into people in the sport. Based on letters he had received from his buddies in the US, he guaranteed me Clay was going to win even though Liston was an 8-1 favorite.

I bankrolled the bets and Coe, whose idea it was, also handled after - fight collections.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Next time you guys go to the Yum to see SU @ LOU; I highly recommend checking out the Ali museum just down the street from there.

 

[SWC75]

When ESPN was doing it's "Sport Century" series and naming the 100 greatest athletes of the 20th Century in reverse order, (they started with 100 and worked their way to #1), they wound up with Michael Jordan as "The Athlete of the Century":
SportsCentury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I disagreed. I felt he was more the athlete of the moment and would be well-remember but I felt like he was sort of this generation's Joe DiMaggio: a great player, maybe the bets in his post, with a favorable public image but who hid behind that image, avoided controversy and had a dark side that eventually would come out. I felt that if they did another list in a few decades, Jordan would still be ranked highly but not close to #1. (DiMaggio was #22 on the Sports Century list).


I felt that, to Americans, (the Sports Century list was limited to North Americans), there were two athletes of the 20th Century, one of the first half of the century, one of the second half. They had these things in common:
- The were both arguably the GOAT of a major sport.
- They were both public extroverts but brooded in private.
- They were both great showmen.
- They both had an affinity for children.
- They were both symbols of their time and...
- It was time devoted to youth.
- As time past, they were a reminder to that generation of the time of their youth.
- They both were afflicted with serious illnesses that robbed them of being a lengthy presence in society after their sports careers were over.
- Both were highly controversial in their playing days and not universally admired but...
- They came to be as the years passed and were mourned nationally when their lives ended.

I posted this at time and said that the proof that they were of the prominence I suggested was that i didn't have to identify them because you already know who I am talking about.

The two difference between Babe Ruth and Muhammed Ali are these:
- Ali used his prominence to take courageous, against the gain stands on issues that mattered to society. Ruth, aside from some broadcasts he made to the troops during WWI and his famous comment about why he was paid more than Herbert Hoover, "(I had a better year than he did."), Ruth was apolitical. Incidentally, he didn't fight in World War I because he "gained exemption from the war draft by accepting a nominal position with a Pennsylvania steel mill" per Wikipedia, which gave him a deferment for being employed in a vital industry.
- Ali was champion of the world, not just of an American sport. He fought all over the world and became the most famous person on the planet. As such, he is being mourned world-wide by people in all cultures who related to him. .

So if you have to pick a #1, it would have to be "The Greatest"

 

[realorange]

One of the problems with their rating was that it was done with many people who never saw Ali fight and were only familiar with him by what they read.

 

[Townie72]

When ESPN was doing it's "Sport Century" series and naming the 100 greatest athletes of the 20th Century in reverse order, (they started with 100 and worked their way to #1), they wound up with Michael Jordan as "The Athlete of the Century":
SportsCentury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I disagreed. I felt he was more the athlete of the moment and would be well-remember but I felt like he was sort of this generation's Joe DiMaggio: a great player, maybe the bets in his post, with a favorable public image but who hid behind that image, avoided controversy and had a dark side that eventually would come out. I felt that if they did another list in a few decades, Jordan would still be ranked highly but not close to #1. (DiMaggio was #22 on the Sports Century list).


I felt that, to Americans, (the Sports Century list was limited to North Americans), there were two athletes of the 20th Century, one of the first half of the century, one of the second half. They had these things in common:
- The were both arguably the GOAT of a major sport.
- They were both public extroverts but brooded in private.
- They were both great showmen.
- They both had an affinity for children.
- They were both symbols of their time and...
- It was time devoted to youth.
- As time past, they were a reminder to that generation of the time of their youth.
- They both were afflicted with serious illnesses that robbed them of being a lengthy presence in society after their sports careers were over.
- Both were highly controversial in their playing days and not universally admired but...
- They came to be as the years passed and were mourned nationally when their lives ended.

I posted this at time and said that the proof that they were of the prominence I suggested was that i didn't have to identify them because you already know who I am talking about.

The two difference between Babe Ruth and Muhammed Ali are these:
- Ali used his prominence to take courageous, against the gain stands on issues that mattered to society. Ruth, aside from some broadcasts he made to the troops during WWI and his famous comment about why he was paid more than Herbert Hoover, "(I had a better year than he did."), Ruth was apolitical. Incidentally, he didn't fight in World War I because he "gained exemption from the war draft by accepting a nominal position with a Pennsylvania steel mill" per Wikipedia, which gave him a deferment for being employed in a vital industry.
- Ali was champion of the world, not just of an American sport. He fought all over the world and became the most famous person on the planet. As such, he is being mourned world-wide by people in all cultures who related to him. .

So if you have to pick a #1, it would have to be "The Greatest"

Well, you are leaving out a lot of stuff about Ali that might not re-inforce your argument.


Throughout his career, Ali humiliated and embarrassed his opponents.


The fight against Ernie Terrell is the best example. That’s the one where he called Terrell and “Uncle Tom, “ And asked him, “What’s My Name” in a fight Ali extended on purpose so he could punish Terrell. One sports writer wrote, “It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

He also called Floyd Patterson an “Uncle Tom”, Henry Cooper “A Bum”, Doug Jones “An ugly little man” and he said he was going to donate Sonny Liston to a zoo after the fight because he looked and smelled like a bear. (I don't think Sonny Liston "got the joke".)

I always liked Ali as a fighter, but ... It's unclear to me that your view of what it takes to be "The Greatest Athlete" --- the criteria you use --- might not be called "The Best Person that was a great Athlete" or "The Athlete I like Best". ("An affinity for Children?" - What's that got to do with athletic ability?)

If "service to others at a cost to you personally" is the key criteria, than Ted Williams wins it easily.

After living through the Ali years and reading Creamer's Book "Babe", it's pretty clear that to me Ruth was a bigger deal for a longer time than Ali. He went from being 0ne of the top pitchers in baseball to reinventing the game, When Ruth hit 54 HRs in 1920, the #2 HR guy in MLB hit 18 HRs.

I was never clear how much of Ali’s refusal to submit to the Draft and how much if it was cult-gangster Elijah Muhhamed

Ali was a great fighter … maybe the best ever. But I’ll pass on electing him the Greatest” title for his humanitarian behavior.

 

[SWC75]

Well, you are leaving out a lot of stuff about Ali that might not re-inforce your argument.


Throughout his career, Ali humiliated and embarrassed his opponents.


The fight against Ernie Terrell is the best example. That’s the one where he called Terrell and “Uncle Tom, “ And asked him, “What’s My Name” in a fight Ali extended on purpose so he could punish Terrell. One sports writer wrote, “It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

He also called Floyd Patterson an “Uncle Tom”, Henry Cooper “A Bum”, Doug Jones “An ugly little man” and he said he was going to donate Sonny Liston to a zoo after the fight because he looked and smelled like a bear. (I don't think Sonny Liston "got the joke".)

I always liked Ali as a fighter, but ... It's unclear to me that your view of what it takes to be "The Greatest Athlete" --- the criteria you use --- might not be called "The Best Person that was a great Athlete" or "The Athlete I like Best". ("An affinity for Children?" - What's that got to do with athletic ability?)

If "service to others at a cost to you personally" is the key criteria, than Ted Williams wins it easily.

After living through the Ali years and reading Creamer's Book "Babe", it's pretty clear that to me Ruth was a bigger deal for a longer time than Ali. He went from being 0ne of the top pitchers in baseball to reinventing the game, When Ruth hit 54 HRs in 1920, the #2 HR guy in MLB hit 18 HRs.

I was never clear how much of Ali’s refusal to submit to the Draft and how much if it was cult-gangster Elijah Muhhamed

Ali was a great fighter … maybe the best ever. But I’ll pass on electing him the Greatest” title for his humanitarian behavior.

I listed things Ruth and Ali had in common and things that were different. I didn't say "an affinity for children" had to do with athletic ability. I think it's clear that they were the most prominent athletes of the 20th century in America and that Ali was the more prominent to the world. I would agree that Ruth had more of an effect on his own sport but other, less prominent athletes had a big impact on how their sport was played, as well. And Ali has had plenty of imitators. I agree that Ali's treatment of his opponents is a downside but it doesn't make him less prominent. Finally, I wouldn't attribute his stands to others. He had to decide to make them, himself, regardless of the influence of other people..

 

[Townie72]

I listed things Ruth and Ali had in common and things that were different. I didn't say "an affinity for children" had to do with athletic ability. I think it's clear that they were the most prominent athletes of the 20th century in America and that Ali was the more prominent to the world. I would agree that Ruth had more of an effect on his own sport but other, less prominent athletes had a big impact on how their sport was played, as well. And Ali has had plenty of imitators. I agree that Ali's treatment of his opponents is a downside but it doesn't make him less prominent. Finally, I wouldn't attribute his stands to others. He had to decide to make them, himself, regardless of the influence of other people..

The regular humiliation of his opponents and the brutality in at least one case, certainly disqualify him from being any kind of role model to the rest of the World.

I hated watching him in the last years of his life, wasting away ... a shadow of his former self.

But Rutj was a bigger deal. And who cares which US Athletes are most prominent in Zimbabwe or France.

In the rest of the world Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi and Luis Suarez are the most prominent athletes. Does America care?

 

[bevosu]

 

[SWC75]

Nice article from former Syracuse writer David Ramsey on Ali:

Ramsey: Yes, Muhammad Ali inspired and infuriated. That's what great Americans do