My beef with Gonzaga | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

My beef with Gonzaga

I've watched them. They're hugely overrated.

I'm not saying they are a bad team. They're more like a Top 15 team than a Top 5 team.
 
1-2 vs. ranked teams

And Dukes victory over Kentucky is super because they were #3 at the time correct? Maybe use current rankings -- what do you know it will be 2-0 tomorrow. In the mass of numbers out there, you decide on a sample size of 3, and don't even represent it properly IMO.

Sure, they now have 2 losses against non top 25 teams. Indiana is the only team that does not.

Problem is many of you still think beating Notre Dame at the Dome, is much better than a win at Santa Clara,
 
KenPom is not perfect. But its one of the best ways we have to compare teams with different SOS. (It does tend to overrate really slow tempo teams at times).

Its not like they have played nobody. 13 RPI top 100 contests vs 18 for a team like Syracuse. Its less, but 13 contests is enough of a sample for a rating system to be relevant.

Tjey are #4 by the way -- seems reasonable.
 
And Dukes victory over Kentucky is super because they were #3 at the time correct? Maybe use current rankings -- what do you know it will be 2-0 tomorrow. In the mass of numbers out there, you decide on a sample size of 3, and don't even represent it properly IMO.

Sure, they now have 2 losses against non top 25 teams. Indiana is the only team that does not.

Problem is many of you still think beating Notre Dame at the Dome, is much better than a win at Santa Clara,

So because I'm more impressed by a Notre Dame team that's 22-7 overall, 10-6 in the Big East than a 21-10, 9-7 in the WCC Santa Clara team, when Notre Dame has played a much tougher schedule, I'm misinformed? Gonzaga beat Santa Clara 85-42 at home. I think the problem is that you would even consider a win against Santa Clara on the road more impressive than beating Notre Dame at any venue. Or are you saying you think the WCC is a better conference than the Big East? Because really that's the only way I could see me being more impressed by Santa Clara being 9-7 in the WCC as opposed to ND being 10-6 in the Big East.
 
I've watched them. They're hugely overrated.

I'm not saying they are a bad team. They're more like a Top 15 team than a Top 5 team.

Who really looks like a top 5 team at this point? Really, Indiana is the only team that looks elite to me. Then maybe Duke with Kelly back. Everyone else has significant flaws in their game. Gonzaga is one of the most well rounded teams in the country from what I've seen. Just seems like they can beat you in a lot of ways, and they have the luxury of a legit post scorer.
 
Problem is many of you still think beating Notre Dame at the Dome, is much better than a win at Santa Clara,
It is, actually.

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Santa Clara is a bad example, but winning at the Marriott Center or at St. Mary's is quality.
 
That's likely not even going to be possible until the elite 8, right?
I'll ball park it. If they're a 1 seed, I won't think they're good until they beat a team that spent more than 1 week in the top 15 - likely in the sweet 16
 
Santa Clara is a bad example, but winning at the Marriott Center or at St. Mary's is quality.
I keep trying to tell people - BYU is not a good team. The Marriott Center can be tough, but people are giving the Zags a lot of undue credit for that win. St. Mary's is ok. That's about it.

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I keep trying to tell people - BYU is not a good team. The Marriott Center can be tough, but people are giving the Zags a lot of undue credit for that win. St. Mary's is ok. That's about it.

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Yeah @BYU is normally a good win, but they basically haven't done anything this year. They're 70th in KenPom. They have 3 wins against teams in the KP top 100. (Santa Clara twice and Weber State)
 
So because I'm more impressed by a Notre Dame team that's 22-7 overall, 10-6 in the Big East than a 21-10, 9-7 in the WCC Santa Clara team, when Notre Dame has played a much tougher schedule, I'm misinformed? Gonzaga beat Santa Clara 85-42 at home. I think the problem is that you would even consider a win against Santa Clara on the road more impressive than beating Notre Dame at any venue. Or are you saying you think the WCC is a better conference than the Big East? Because really that's the only way I could see me being more impressed by Santa Clara being 9-7 in the WCC as opposed to ND being 10-6 in the Big East.

I never claimed any of the stuff you just accused me of. Of course Notre Dame is better. Of course the BEast is way, way better. I never said the Santa Clara win was more impressive - merely that is comparable. I suppose its easy to berate a point if you attack claims that were never made.

I could use Syracuse, but lets use somebody like the Wolverines.

They would be about a 8-10 point favorite at ome vs Notre Dame.
They would be about a 8-10 point favorite on the road vs Santa Clara.

Yet fans want to recognize a win at the Dome vs Notre Dame as much more meaningful than a win at Santa Clara.

You proved my point with your comment. Does a BEast play many more difficult contests in conference. Absolutely. But you cant credit a win on your floor vs Notre Dame, and than not credit a win on the road at Santa Clara. They are about equal accomplishments. A BEast team must remove some of the home wins as positives, or you need to be more willing to add positives to Gonzaga for certain road wins. Cannot have both.

Notre Dame is about 6 points better than on a neutral floor than Santa Clara -- just so you dont accuse me of saying Santa Clara is better again.
 
In 2013, winning against a team ranked 25 (via KP) at home is comparable to winning against number 80 on the road.
 
I never claimed any of the stuff you just accused me of. Of course Notre Dame is better. Of course the BEast is way, way better. I never said the Santa Clara win was more impressive - merely that is comparable. I suppose its easy to berate a point if you attack claims that were never made.

I could use Syracuse, but lets use somebody like the Wolverines.

They would be about a 8-10 point favorite at ome vs Notre Dame.
They would be about a 8-10 point favorite on the road vs Santa Clara.

Yet fans want to recognize a win at the Dome vs Notre Dame as much more meaningful than a win at Santa Clara.

You proved my point with your comment. Does a BEast play many more difficult contests in conference. Absolutely. But you cant credit a win on your floor vs Notre Dame, and than not credit a win on the road at Santa Clara. They are about equal accomplishments. A BEast team must remove some of the home wins as positives, or you need to be more willing to add positives to Gonzaga for certain road wins. Cannot have both.

Notre Dame is about 6 points better than on a neutral floor than Santa Clara -- just so you dont accuse me of saying Santa Clara is better again.

You're right you never said the win was more impressive, I jumped to that conclusion. Having said that, I still don't agree with your point at all that I should be similarly or equally impressed by a win at Santa Clara and a win at home against Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a top 25 NCAA tournament team, Santa Clara is barely 500 in the WCC.

You can give me your convenient hypothetical situation but I'm not sure I believe your point spread theory that has no evidence to back it up besides your biased opinion. I also don't agree that if Notre Dame played Santa Clara on a neutral floor tomorrow Notre Dame would win only win by 6. I can still credit a win at home against ND and a win on the road at Santa Clara, just not the same amount because they aren't as equally impressive. If you were to say a home win against DePaul or maybe even a Seton Hall or Rutgers then maybe, but not a top 25 tournament team compared to a team that's 1 game over .500 in a mediocre conference.

To take it a step further your theory is still flawed because even if you want to equate a home win against a big east ncaa tournament team to a road win against a 1st round NIT loser, then what part of Gonzaga's schedule do I use to equate the road wins at Villanova, Cinn, SJU etc. According to you I should be impressed by those quite a bit if I'm impressed by a road win at Santa Clara, and nobody looks at road wins against those types of teams as wins validating a top 3 ranking. That's where the double standard comes in. If I'm not going to give a power conference team credit for those wins, why should I give them to a mid major they cant have it both ways.
 
You can give me your convenient hypothetical situation but I'm not sure I believe your point spread theory that has no evidence to back it up besides your biased opinion.

Biased opinion? It is based on KenPom rankings. Point spreads open 95% of the time within one or two points of what KP says (if no injury issues). So no it is not biased at all.


I can still credit a win at home against ND and a win on the road at Santa Clara, just not the same amount because they aren't as equally impressive.

My assessment is based on numbers. Yours is based on an opinion, and you ave barely seen one team play (if at all).

If you were to say a home win against DePaul or maybe even a Seton Hall or Rutgers then maybe, but not a top 25 tournament team compared to a team that's 1 game over .500 in a mediocre conference.

If we were unsure about your biased opinion it became clear now. You compare a home win against DePaul or Seton Hall or Rutgers to beating Santa Clara on the road? Are you serious?

To take it a step further your theory is still flawed because even if you want to equate a home win against a big east ncaa tournament team to a road win against a 1st round NIT loser, then what part of Gonzaga's schedule do I use to equate the road wins at Villanova, Cinn, SJU etc.

My theory is not that Gonzaga's conference schedule is an equal. Never was. Of course, you cannot matcj line by line My argument is that they can be viewed as a top competitor, and people need to be more open minded about certain of their recent conference wins. (Not many power conference teams ave won 3 consecutive top 100 contests on the road in conference this year).

Once again you are attacking a claim I did not make. I am not saying 27-2 in tje WCC is equal to 27-2 in tje Beast. But is it comparable to 25-4 or 24-5? That is really the debate is it not?

I dont need to prove that Gonzaga is clearly the best, to say they are legitimate contenders. I am simply claiming they are in the group -- a legit one seed


Gonzaga played 13 top 100 contests vs Syracuse 18. Its a comparable sample size level that I think a KenPOm rating of #4 is a fair number to use to assess them.

Lets look at it another way. What is the difference between a Gonzaga schedule and a BEast schedule. (5 less top 100 teams, and 5 top ones). Replace the home and home with Portland and San Diego, with a home and home against Louisville and Georgetown. Its fair to predict 2-2 in those contests (take care of business at home). So we now ave comparable schedules and a 25-4 record.

My eyes also say they are top 5 , but that is certainly pure opinion. A very impressive offence, and talent and depth we can only dream of on the front line.
 
Gongaga has 2 NBA players on their roster. They are not a fluke. Plus they have a pretty solid guard in Pangos.

If people are basing their assumptions on looking at a resume as opposed to watching them then do yourself a favor and watch them.

Stop making sense.

44cuse
 
Was never a believer in them. Left coast basketball is cute.
 
As I predicted from the first page...they would flame out early.
 

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