My two big questions...

[BostonOrange]

1. Are we tough enough inside. That means rebounding but also finishing through contact near the hoop. All our interior players are soft in one way or another.
2. Are Scoop\Triche good enough. They are both ok but...they both have so many holes. Scoop can create in the half court, but can't shoot either from the perimeter or from the line and is tough to trust out there. Triche is capable of playing well in a supporting role but can't create much for himself or others. I can't help but wonder where MCW would be right now if he had come into a situation like Hart\Gmac where he had to play 30 minutes a game no matter what. His upside is just so much higher than the other guys.

 

[jsshap]

1. Are we tough enough inside. That means rebounding but also finishing through contact near the hoop. All our interior players are soft in one way or another.
2. Are Scoop\Triche good enough. They are both ok but...they both have so many holes. Scoop can create in the half court, but can't shoot either from the perimeter or from the line and is tough to trust out there. Triche is capable of playing well in a supporting role but can't create much for himself or others. I can't help but wonder where MCW would be right now if he had come into a situation like Hart\Gmac where he had to play 30 minutes a game no matter what. His upside is just so much higher than the other guys.

I think the answer to question 1 is no and the answer to question 2 is yes. I have no problem trusting Scoop out there and feel he has been very solid this year, though last night he was not very good until the end. However, I do not think this team is as good as the Rautins/AO squad that got a #1 seed. They do not shoot nearly as well and do not have the post up presence, and I have not checked the numbers but I can safely assume that team was better on the boards. That is not to say this year's squad is not really good, or cannot go the distance, but in my view last night's game was an unfavorable forecast into the road ahead...the recipe against SU is take care of the ball, get back on D, and outrebound them. I wonder how they would do against a team like UVA. UVA has 1 player who would start for SU, and only 2 that would get any time at all but I expect they'd give SU problems for these reasons. Its nice that they have lots of decent shooters, but it hurts that they have no great ones. I realize Southerland did not get much run last night, but I am convinced he will never so qualify. To be clear I am excited about the year and still think FF is out there to be had, but it does not look as promising to me as it did 3 weeks ago, when Dion looked like an AA and Fair played well every game.

 

[Marsh01]

1. Are we tough enough inside. That means rebounding but also finishing through contact near the hoop. All our interior players are soft in one way or another.
2. Are Scoop\Triche good enough. They are both ok but...they both have so many holes. Scoop can create in the half court, but can't shoot either from the perimeter or from the line and is tough to trust out there. Triche is capable of playing well in a supporting role but can't create much for himself or others. I can't help but wonder where MCW would be right now if he had come into a situation like Hart\Gmac where he had to play 30 minutes a game no matter what. His upside is just so much higher than the other guys.

Here are the problems with our rebounding:

Position. Our frontcourt players (especially our forwards) are never in position to rebound effectively. I specifically watched Kris and more importantly James last night and they get caught up in watching as opposed to watching AND reacting. James especially. When they then realize that they are out of position its too late. Happens that fast. These 2 need to do a much better job in reacting to when a shot goes up as opposed to watching.

Guards. Dion got 5 boards last night so it wasnt all the guards fault but because our guards like to cheat and leak out to start a fast break that leaves us in a position where a semilong or a long rebound gets gobbled up by the opposing team. It happened about 5 times last night. Our forwards are not getting the rebounds to start a fast break so when our guards cheat other teams are sending more guys to the hoop because they know that this area of the floor will be open.

Tipping the ball vs grabbing the ball. I can always tell when Kris is going to rebound well that particular night because he goes up and grabs the ball and smacks it into his hands. Last night was not one of those nights. Too much tipping the ball and not grabbing it. I also noticed that other teams are starting to tip the ball back out towards the perimeter a lot against us. Go up and grab the damn ball.

Rebounding is attitude. You either have it or you dont. Watch Kevin Jones rebound and that is what I am talking about. you have to want the ball not hope it comes your way. Until these guys buy into that mental philosophy it will continue to linger all year.

 

[SoBristol]

When you compare CJ vs Kevin Jones the difference isn't attitude or philosophy.
Kevin is a full 6 ft 8, 250lbs -- and CJ isn't.
Maybe that G-town frosh (Otto) is a better comparison.

The way we rebound better is to play Rak more -- but then we lose CJ's skill on the other end of the court.

 

[Marsh01]

When you compare CJ vs Kevin Jones the difference isn't attitude or philosophy.
Kevin is a full 6 ft 8, 250lbs -- and CJ isn't.
Maybe that G-town frosh (Otto) is a better comparison.

The way we rebound better is to play Rak more -- but then we lose CJ's skill on the other end of the court.

I didnt compare CJ. I compared Kris and James.

You dont have to be an expert to see that jones anticipates and reacts better than any player in the country. That was my point. Hell Rodman was a 6'8" string bean when he came into the league and he literally willed 10 rebounds a game for the Pistons.

 

[44cuse]

Here are the problems with our rebounding:

Position. Our frontcourt players (especially our forwards) are never in position to rebound effectively. I specifically watched Kris and more importantly James last night and they get caught up in watching as opposed to watching AND reacting. James especially. When they then realize that they are out of position its too late. Happens that fast. These 2 need to do a much better job in reacting to when a shot goes up as opposed to watching.

Guards. Dion got 5 boards last night so it wasnt all the guards fault but because our guards like to cheat and leak out to start a fast break that leaves us in a position where a semilong or a long rebound gets gobbled up by the opposing team. It happened about 5 times last night. Our forwards are not getting the rebounds to start a fast break so when our guards cheat other teams are sending more guys to the hoop because they know that this area of the floor will be open.

Tipping the ball vs grabbing the ball. I can always tell when Kris is going to rebound well that particular night because he goes up and grabs the ball and smacks it into his hands. Last night was not one of those nights. Too much tipping the ball and not grabbing it. I also noticed that other teams are starting to tip the ball back out towards the perimeter a lot against us. Go up and grab the damn ball.

Rebounding is attitude. You either have it or you dont. Watch Kevin Jones rebound and that is what I am talking about. you have to want the ball not hope it comes your way. Until these guys buy into that mental philosophy it will continue to linger all year.

James Southerland (who i really know has a ton of potential/talent) does not ever really seem to find himself in the correct place on the court when it comes to rebounding.

It's odd to watch.

44cuse

 

[Marsh01]

James Southerland (who i really know has a ton of potential/talent) does not ever really seem to find himself in the correct place on the court when it comes to rebounding.

It's odd to watch.

44cuse

He really doesnt. Last night I focused on him solely on a rebound where he literally watched the shot go up, never moved, his defender went right around him and he tried to react but it was too late. All he had to do was find his man, put a body on him and he would have grabbed the rebound easily.

 

[Guinness]

Here are the problems with our rebounding:

Position. Our frontcourt players (especially our forwards) are never in position to rebound effectively. I specifically watched Kris and more importantly James last night and they get caught up in watching as opposed to watching AND reacting. James especially. When they then realize that they are out of position its too late. Happens that fast. These 2 need to do a much better job in reacting to when a shot goes up as opposed to watching

It seems like more often than not they have no idea where the ball is going to come off the rim. Our guys seem to do exactly what you said and that is to wait until after it comes off to try and go get it and by that time it is often too late.

It reminds me of an interview I saw with Dennis Rodman about his rebounding. He said he would spend a lot of time in practice just watching how different shots came off the rim glass to learn how to anticipate the rebound before it happened.

 

[chlywtr]

Rak got pulled early when he missed a weakside rebound, twice, and that was the last i saw him (plus, he got blown by a couple of times on the defensive end).....of course it probably had more to do with the tightness of the game, especially late

 

[SoBristol]

I didnt compare CJ. I compared Kris and James.

You dont have to be an expert to see that jones anticipates and reacts better than any player in the country. That was my point. Hell Rodman was a 6'8" string bean when he came into the league and he literally willed 10 rebounds a game for the Pistons.

But it's the same point. James is an odd case (lacks real good basketball sense -- although sometimes he can surprise with an inside move using his athletic ability), but he is a string bean and can get pushed around. KJ knows what he is doing, but has to live on quickness, not strength. I don't recall Rodman when he first entered the league, but he was ripped in his prime and could outfight and outleap guys for the ball.

Now, I do believe that Fab could do a lot more with better anticipation and better timing -- using his size more effectively. But an attitude adjustment (or anticipation) isn't going to turn CJ, Kris or James into a beast on the boards.

 

[44cuse]

He really doesnt. Last night I focused on him solely on a rebound where he literally watched the shot go up, never moved, his defender went right around him and he tried to react but it was too late. All he had to do was find his man, put a body on him and he would have grabbed the rebound easily.

I cringe (literally) when I watch him because it's awkward. And if you look at the games where he has been very good, it's been against a level or two down in terms of competition and game speed in particular.

He has the size and skills, just not the court sense.

Here's the analogy I draw: CJ (when he was being CJ) has an uncanny knack for being in the right place at the right time. James Southerland is the exact opposite.

44cuse

 

[RF2044]

Here are the problems with our rebounding:

Position. Our frontcourt players (especially our forwards) are never in position to rebound effectively. I specifically watched Kris and more importantly James last night and they get caught up in watching as opposed to watching AND reacting. James especially. When they then realize that they are out of position its too late. Happens that fast. These 2 need to do a much better job in reacting to when a shot goes up as opposed to watching.

Guards. Dion got 5 boards last night so it wasnt all the guards fault but because our guards like to cheat and leak out to start a fast break that leaves us in a position where a semilong or a long rebound gets gobbled up by the opposing team. It happened about 5 times last night. Our forwards are not getting the rebounds to start a fast break so when our guards cheat other teams are sending more guys to the hoop because they know that this area of the floor will be open.

Tipping the ball vs grabbing the ball. I can always tell when Kris is going to rebound well that particular night because he goes up and grabs the ball and smacks it into his hands. Last night was not one of those nights. Too much tipping the ball and not grabbing it. I also noticed that other teams are starting to tip the ball back out towards the perimeter a lot against us. Go up and grab the damn ball.

Rebounding is attitude. You either have it or you dont. Watch Kevin Jones rebound and that is what I am talking about. you have to want the ball not hope it comes your way. Until these guys buy into that mental philosophy it will continue to linger all year.

Good post.

I'll add that we never box out / body up against opposing players. For as big / strong / athletic as many of our guys are, they stand around and let rebounds come to them versus fighting for them.

Look at teams like Michigan State and Pitt--they practice every day rebounding technique--it's part of their core identity. Not ours, and the results speak for themselves.

The frustrating thing is: it is a team issue, not just one guy. And we could collectively elevate our rebounding acumen AS A TEAM without doing too much differently if the players would only commit to it.

 

[pfister1]

Rak got pulled early when he missed a weakside rebound, twice, and that was the last i saw him (plus, he got blown by a couple of times on the defensive end).....of course it probably had more to do with the tightness of the game, especially late

By late, do you mean over the final 42 minutes of the game?

 

[AZOrange]

CJ had nine boards last night. How is any of this on him? At least he gives effort on the glass. Melo's effort is inexcusable.

 

[Guinness]

CJ had nine boards last night. How is any of this on him? At least he gives effort on the glass. Melo's effort is inexcusable.

In a jump shooting game like last night a lot of 3's are going to go long. Hard to ask your center to get those. The wings and the guards need to do better.

In regards to Fair's 9. The number is great unless you know how many came his way and were missed. Was he 9 for 9? 9 for 12? 9 for 20? You get the point.

 

[Upstate]

I think the biggest concern is that the guards are refusing to help out on a lot of rebounds and are breaking for transition too quickly. It's push and pull, you either give up more rebounds, or when you finally get one, you can get easy buckets. I'd rather have 5 men going to the hoop with every shot than 3 guys breaking the other way with a 2 on 4 rebounding disadvantage. We gave up at least 10-15 points because of this and that's unacceptable. I think it was Bob Knight who made a great point: the zone follows the ball and not the man; when a shot goes up, guys are looking at the ball and not looking for a man to get a body on, and it sure looked like that all game. Definitely fixable, but we can't forget that GT is a top-10 team that will always give us problems, it's the same as Ville every year and Pitt. Styles clash, but we still won playing our worst game of the season against a very good GT team. Go out, force 20 TOs, frustrate UConn and win by 25, and we're back rolling again.

 

[AZOrange]

In a jump shooting game like last night a lot of 3's are going to go long. Hard to ask your center to get those. The wings and the guards need to do better.

In regards to Fair's 9. The number is great unless you know how many came his way and were missed. Was he 9 for 9? 9 for 12? 9 for 20? You get the point.

There were alot of easy ones inside that Fab didnt get either (I do realize he is out of position alot because he is asked to block shots though). Could CJ have grabbed a couple more? Sure. But the issue is effort we are giving and CJ is not a problem on that end. Joseph, James, Triche and Scoop give very little effort on the glass.

 

[RF2044]

There were alot of easy ones inside that Fab didnt get either (I do realize he is out of position alot because he is asked to block shots though). Could CJ have grabbed a couple more? Sure. But the issue is effort we are giving and CJ is not a problem on that end. Joseph, James, Triche and Scoop give very little effort on the glass.

And that's exactly what I mean by this is a systemic team issue, not an individual issue [as in, "Rak should be getting more..."]. We need the entire team--Scoop, Triche, Dion, Joseph, Southerland, etc. to do a better job of tracking down caroms.

Right now, we're playing great defense. But that is getting neutralized by giving our opponents too many 2nd and 3rd chances due to offensive rebounds. We should have beaten WV by 25 if we didn't let them double up on us on the glass. Likewise, we win comfortably yesterday if we limit their offensive rebounds even by just a few.

Need to do a better job collectively--that is the only way to address this systemic issue.

 

[Guinness]

And that's exactly what I mean by this is a systemic team issue, not an individual issue [as in, "Rak should be getting more..."]. We need the entire team--Scoop, Triche, Dion, Joseph, Southerland, etc. to do a better job of tracking down caroms.

Right now, we're playing great defense. But that is getting neutralized by giving our opponents too many 2nd and 3rd chances due to offensive rebounds. We should have beaten WV by 25 if we didn't let them double up on us on the glass. Likewise, we win comfortably yesterday if we limit their offensive rebounds even by just a few.

Need to do a better job collectively--that is the only way to address this systemic issue.

I don't disagree. JB could fix this by pulling anyone who fails to give an effort or run out too soon instead of just pulling Christmas or James. If he really wants to fix this he needs to apply it to KJ and the guards as well. KJ seems to be the one he is more reluctant to pull.

 

[AZOrange]

And that's exactly what I mean by this is a systemic team issue, not an individual issue [as in, "Rak should be getting more..."]. We need the entire team--Scoop, Triche, Dion, Joseph, Southerland, etc. to do a better job of tracking down caroms.

Right now, we're playing great defense. But that is getting neutralized by giving our opponents too many 2nd and 3rd chances due to offensive rebounds. We should have beaten WV by 25 if we didn't let them double up on us on the glass. Likewise, we win comfortably yesterday if we limit their offensive rebounds even by just a few.

Need to do a better job collectively--that is the only way to address this systemic issue.

I agree with you RF. I guess I am still trying to figure out what it all means for us as a team though. The numbers look bad, but GTown still shot 33% even with second chance. Are we really ever going to hold a team to 25% shooting? Or are all the rebounds a "function" of the low shooting percentage d. They got 20 offensive rebounds (really all we care about are those). How many were converted into second chance points (because isnt that the really important number?).

Couple that with the fact that if we shoot above 42% (we shot 35%) we win going away.

 

[AZOrange]

I don't disagree. JB could fix this by pulling anyone who fails to give an effort or run out too soon instead of just pulling Christmas or James. If he really wants to fix this he needs to apply it to KJ and the guards as well. KJ seems to be the one he is more reluctant to pull.

Christmas and James are the guys that up and give most of the lackluster effort though.

 

[Madbiker]

Here are the problems with our rebounding:

Position. Our frontcourt players (especially our forwards) are never in position to rebound effectively. I specifically watched Kris and more importantly James last night and they get caught up in watching as opposed to watching AND reacting. James especially. When they then realize that they are out of position its too late. Happens that fast. These 2 need to do a much better job in reacting to when a shot goes up as opposed to watching.

Guards. Dion got 5 boards last night so it wasnt all the guards fault but because our guards like to cheat and leak out to start a fast break that leaves us in a position where a semilong or a long rebound gets gobbled up by the opposing team. It happened about 5 times last night. Our forwards are not getting the rebounds to start a fast break so when our guards cheat other teams are sending more guys to the hoop because they know that this area of the floor will be open.

Tipping the ball vs grabbing the ball. I can always tell when Kris is going to rebound well that particular night because he goes up and grabs the ball and smacks it into his hands. Last night was not one of those nights. Too much tipping the ball and not grabbing it. I also noticed that other teams are starting to tip the ball back out towards the perimeter a lot against us. Go up and grab the damn ball.

Rebounding is attitude. You either have it or you dont. Watch Kevin Jones rebound and that is what I am talking about. you have to want the ball not hope it comes your way. Until these guys buy into that mental philosophy it will continue to linger all year.

I agree. I remember something Charles Barkley once said that only 2 things go into being a great rebounder...anticipating as the shot leaves the shooter's hand where the ball is going to come off and desire. Our guys do not anticipate where the ball is going to come off if the shot is missed. They stand there and watch and then after a delay they react and move. By then its too late. You have to anticipate that if a shot is from the left wing it will most of time come off on the right side. You have to be moving to that spot as soon as the ball leaves the shooter's hand. You'd think that would be fundamental. But SU teams since to almost always have this problem even as our players change.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Christmas and James are the guys that up and give most of the lackluster effort though.

I have pretty much liked Christmas's effort all season. He tries and has come a long way since those H.S. all star games. His problem is experience especially with positioning. James, Kris, Fab really don't try at times at grabbing boards and CJ was NOT good in the 1H yesterday.

 

[44cuse]

Good post.

I'll add that we never box out / body up against opposing players. For as big / strong / athletic as many of our guys are, they stand around and let rebounds come to them versus fighting for them.

Look at teams like Michigan State and Pitt--they practice every day rebounding technique--it's part of their core identity. Not ours, and the results speak for themselves.

The frustrating thing is: it is a team issue, not just one guy. And we could collectively elevate our rebounding acumen AS A TEAM without doing too much differently if the players would only commit to it.

Now I'm really trending to the negative...which I really don't mean to because I believe we have the talent to win it all (awkward caveat I guess). But the standing around is not just limited to rebounding. The zone is less active for longer periods of time than it was earlier in the year. And I won't even mention the offense. Thankfully Fab sets a high pick every set or everyone would stay in one place and watch people dribble.

See: Waiters, Dion final shot of the game.

44cuse

 

[Guinness]

See: Waiters, Dion final shot of the game.

The shot was dreadful. You would think coming out of a time out we could come up with something better that you stand here and dribble until the clock gets low then fail to drive past your man and take an off balance 3.