I have no way of knowing. But having been alive back then, it wasn't much of a secret what was going on. Tark complained that the NCAA went after him and left UCLA alone.
NCAA Final Four Games for April 2
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Most of the Wooden naysayers here prolly weren't even alive when he was wining title after title.
Who said that? earlier you said that there is a lot of dirt in college hoop. Now you are frustrated because others call that out. The sad truth is that we are hurt in recruiting because we can't cheat anymore. The first probation saw to that.
CuseFaninVT
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Not what we are saying at all. But you enjoy making stuff up and painting with a broad and inaccurate brush
I was. How about you?
orangefog
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What they did paled in comparison to now, but it seems that they were the only program cheating that way, which meant they got ALL the best players. Also, those great players were fewer back then. Now, a number of teams cheat at the highest level. It just seems that most of them have crappy coaches. Or, the talent level is so high, that as long as you get top 100 players and get them to stay around a few years, you can compete against the one and done teams. Back in the UCLA days, those great players stayed for four years.
SWC75
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I don't feel sorry for Coach K with his 5 national championships and his scowl. I was thinking that it would be appropriate for Duke to get #6 and tie UNC. They deserve to be tied, in more ways than one. I decided to root for whoever was behind so it could go down to the last shot. And I had the same feeling as Kenny Smith- I didn't want anyone to "blow it". Met the game be decided by positive plays.
For the most part it was. Mark Williams can't be feeling too well who got in foul trouble and wasn't much of a factor, except when he missed those two free throws with 47 seconds left. But still it was a game full of positive plays by Bacot, who did his own version of Willis Reed. Love and Davis were amazing. Banchero and Keels were, too for Duke. it was a back-and-forth game with each team responding to challenges. You knew neither would let the other pull away. Vilanova-North Carolina is still the greatest game in the Final Four and our own 6OT game in the BET is still the greatest game of all time but this game was everything you'd want.
I wonder if UNC has enough left to beat Kansas in the final. Only one #8 seed had won the national title - Nova in '85.
For the most part it was. Mark Williams can't be feeling too well who got in foul trouble and wasn't much of a factor, except when he missed those two free throws with 47 seconds left. But still it was a game full of positive plays by Bacot, who did his own version of Willis Reed. Love and Davis were amazing. Banchero and Keels were, too for Duke. it was a back-and-forth game with each team responding to challenges. You knew neither would let the other pull away. Vilanova-North Carolina is still the greatest game in the Final Four and our own 6OT game in the BET is still the greatest game of all time but this game was everything you'd want.
I wonder if UNC has enough left to beat Kansas in the final. Only one #8 seed had won the national title - Nova in '85.
orangefog
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No, they are all clean.
CuseFaninVT
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Don’t get all metallurgical now
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Never heard of Sam Gilbert I guess? Bobby Knight did.
"I have a lot of respect for Wooden as a coach, how he coached," Knight said. "He was a good coach. But from then on, and I don't mind saying it, I don't respect Wooden, because he allowed Sam Gilbert to do whatever it took to recruit kids.
SWC75
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UPDATED:
You hear a lot of comparisons of Mike Krzyzewski's record in the NCAA Tournament to John Wooden's. Wooden won 10 national championships when you had to win 4 games to do it. Coach K has gone to ten final fours when you had to win four games to do it. Of course, that means he's won a lot of Monmouth-type games that Wooden's teams didn't have to play. They point out that the Western Regionals the Wizard's teams played in may have been weaker than the seeded regionals Duke has played in. But there is no way to spin their records in the final four:
WOODEN
1962 Lost to Cincinnati 70-72 in the semi-finals and to Billy Packer’s Wake Forest team in the consey 80-82. Cincy won the national championship.
1964 Beat K-State, 90-84 and Duke, 98-83 in the final to win the title.
1965 Beat Wichita State, 108-89 and Michigan 91-80 in the final to win the title.
1967 Beat Houston 73-58 and Dayton, 79-64 in the final to win the title.
1968 Beat Houston, 101-69 and UNC, 78-55 in the finals to win the title. (The combined margin of victory- 55 points, is unmatched.)
1969 Beat Drake, 85-82 in a surprisingly close semi-final but handled Purdue in the final,. 92-72 to become the first team to win three straight titles.
1970 Beat New Mexico State, 93-77 and Jacksonville, 80-69 to win the championship in the final four with the best combined record, (103-7), in history.
1971 Beat Kansas, 68-60 and Villanova, 68-62 to win the title.
1972 Beat Louisville, 96-77 and Florida State, 82-76 to win the title.
1973 Beat Indiana, 70-59 and Memphis State, 87-66 to win the title.
1974 Lost to NC State, 77-80 in 2 overtimes, then beat Kansas, 78-61 in the consey.
1975 Beat Louisville, 75-74 in OT and Kentucky 92-85 to win Wooden’s 10th title, after which he retired with an all-time Final Four record of 21-3, with the losses being by a total of 7 points, the one with the “biggest” margin in two overtimes..
KRZYZEWSKI
1986 Beat Kansas, 71-67, lost to Louisville, 69-72.
1988 Lost to Kansas, 59-66
1989 Lost to Seton Hall 78-95, (after leading by something like 27-9 at one time)
1990 Beat Arkansas, 97-83. Lost to UNLV, 73-103.
1991 Beat UNLV, 79-77 and Kansas, 72-65 to win the title.
1992 Beat Indiana, 81-78 and Michigan, 71-51 to win the title.
1994 Beat Florida, 70-65. Lost to Arkansas, 72-76 in the final.
1999 Beat Michigan State, 68-62. Lost to Connecticut, 74-77 in the finals.
2001 Beat Maryland, 95-84 and Arizona, 82-72 to win the title.
2004 Lost to Connecticut 78-79
2010 Beat West Virginia 78-57 and Butler 61-59 to win the title.
2015 Beat Michigan State 81-61 and Wisconsin 68-63.
2022 Lost to North Carolina 78-81
Coach K has reached 13 Final Fours to 12 for Wooden and you could say that is almost the equivalent of 13 national championships since Coach K had to win 4 games to get to the Final Four in his time, the same number Coach Wooden had to win to get the title in his time. So far Coach K is 14-8, with the losses by a total of 68 points. That hardly compares to the “Wizard of Westwood”. And Sam Gilbert might have helped them get there, but you can only go 21-3 against this level of competition by earning it on the court.
You hear a lot of comparisons of Mike Krzyzewski's record in the NCAA Tournament to John Wooden's. Wooden won 10 national championships when you had to win 4 games to do it. Coach K has gone to ten final fours when you had to win four games to do it. Of course, that means he's won a lot of Monmouth-type games that Wooden's teams didn't have to play. They point out that the Western Regionals the Wizard's teams played in may have been weaker than the seeded regionals Duke has played in. But there is no way to spin their records in the final four:
WOODEN
1962 Lost to Cincinnati 70-72 in the semi-finals and to Billy Packer’s Wake Forest team in the consey 80-82. Cincy won the national championship.
1964 Beat K-State, 90-84 and Duke, 98-83 in the final to win the title.
1965 Beat Wichita State, 108-89 and Michigan 91-80 in the final to win the title.
1967 Beat Houston 73-58 and Dayton, 79-64 in the final to win the title.
1968 Beat Houston, 101-69 and UNC, 78-55 in the finals to win the title. (The combined margin of victory- 55 points, is unmatched.)
1969 Beat Drake, 85-82 in a surprisingly close semi-final but handled Purdue in the final,. 92-72 to become the first team to win three straight titles.
1970 Beat New Mexico State, 93-77 and Jacksonville, 80-69 to win the championship in the final four with the best combined record, (103-7), in history.
1971 Beat Kansas, 68-60 and Villanova, 68-62 to win the title.
1972 Beat Louisville, 96-77 and Florida State, 82-76 to win the title.
1973 Beat Indiana, 70-59 and Memphis State, 87-66 to win the title.
1974 Lost to NC State, 77-80 in 2 overtimes, then beat Kansas, 78-61 in the consey.
1975 Beat Louisville, 75-74 in OT and Kentucky 92-85 to win Wooden’s 10th title, after which he retired with an all-time Final Four record of 21-3, with the losses being by a total of 7 points, the one with the “biggest” margin in two overtimes..
KRZYZEWSKI
1986 Beat Kansas, 71-67, lost to Louisville, 69-72.
1988 Lost to Kansas, 59-66
1989 Lost to Seton Hall 78-95, (after leading by something like 27-9 at one time)
1990 Beat Arkansas, 97-83. Lost to UNLV, 73-103.
1991 Beat UNLV, 79-77 and Kansas, 72-65 to win the title.
1992 Beat Indiana, 81-78 and Michigan, 71-51 to win the title.
1994 Beat Florida, 70-65. Lost to Arkansas, 72-76 in the final.
1999 Beat Michigan State, 68-62. Lost to Connecticut, 74-77 in the finals.
2001 Beat Maryland, 95-84 and Arizona, 82-72 to win the title.
2004 Lost to Connecticut 78-79
2010 Beat West Virginia 78-57 and Butler 61-59 to win the title.
2015 Beat Michigan State 81-61 and Wisconsin 68-63.
2022 Lost to North Carolina 78-81
Coach K has reached 13 Final Fours to 12 for Wooden and you could say that is almost the equivalent of 13 national championships since Coach K had to win 4 games to get to the Final Four in his time, the same number Coach Wooden had to win to get the title in his time. So far Coach K is 14-8, with the losses by a total of 68 points. That hardly compares to the “Wizard of Westwood”. And Sam Gilbert might have helped them get there, but you can only go 21-3 against this level of competition by earning it on the court.
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orangefog
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Great numbers, good job, but screw both those guys.
I'm not frustrated at all. I'm always amused at all of the various coaches that are hated on this board. Too many to mention over the years.
Back to my original point. John Wooden was the greatest college basketball coach in history. Really don't think it is debatable. You go 205-5 over a seven year period with seven straight titles. People can rationalize it all they want but that is an insane record.
Dinkyspond
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Me too
metallurgical? Wha?
Yep sore losers. They were all top tier recruits who aren’t used to losing. If coach K was really such a builder of men his team would know that win or lose they show up and respect the opponent. Bunch of front runners
Cuse
No question. But it also fair to include in that great record that the way the game was played and I don't mean on the court, was different. 15 ships. The talent wasn't spread as far apart. Oh, and he cheated like a 2 dollar whore. For some reason, you get defensive about that. It's there. just like the 205-5 record. he was a great coach with a great record that also cheated. You also made an issue of people that were talking weren't around for Woodens run. I was. So was Bees. I asked if you were. Were you?
SWC75
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Sam Gilbert (businessman) - Wikipedia
"Gilbert began his relationship with UCLA basketball sometime around 1966-1967" Wooden had won two national championships by then and already recruited the Alcindor group. The article suggested that Gilbert 'recruited' players not for Wooden but recruited Wooden's players for himself so he could become their agent. Wooden didn't win 10 national championships because of Sam Gilbert.
I know you're just repeating what others have said but I love that one about how Wooden only had to win four games. yeah he would have really struggled with a 16 seed.
DilemaCuse
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I kind of know. 5 years ago in ObX, on a fishing charter, chatting w the first mate who is a Duke fan. Tells me Mrs k has dimentia...
SWC75
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Duke may have been motivated to avenge UNC spoiling their party for Coach K but I suspect the UNC players were motivated by K's speech after that game where he considered losing that game "unacceptable".
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