NCAA Final Four Games for April 2

[rrlbees]

Kinda tough to listen to Bob Knight wax poetic about the virtuousness of any college hoops coach given his track record. Wooden had more class in his left big toenail than Knight ever had.

Check out this rap sheet.

List of incidents involving Bob Knight

Here's a look at some of the outbursts over the years by Texas Tech basketball coach Bob...

www.chron.com

You can think of knight what you want. But it doesn’t change the fact he was truthful and honest about his feelings on wooden as a 100 articles including the one I linked to swc showed them/him to be corrupt.

 

[bpo57]

You can think of knight what you want. But it doesn’t change the fact he was truthful and honest about his feelings on wooden as a 100 articles including the one I linked to swc showed them/him to be corrupt.

100 articles?

The NCAA investigated and found that Wooden wasn't complicit in any of it. I'm sure he should have kept a tighter rein on his players and program. Sound familiar?

He supposedly warned his players to stay away from Gilbert. There a lot of programs that have a Sam Gilbert or Bill Rapp lurking in the shadows. Overzealous boosters are a thing in numerous football and basketball programs across the country.

Btw Wooden won several titles before Gilbert showed up at UCLA in 1967. Neither Alcindor nor Walton's decision to come to UCLA had anything to do with Sam Gilbert. In fact most reports indicate that Gilbert was even more involved with UCLA after Wooden retired.

 

[rrlbees]

100 articles?

The NCAA investigated and found that Wooden wasn't complicit in any of it. I'm sure he should have kept a tighter rein on his players and program. Sound familiar?

He supposedly warned his players to stay away from Gilbert. There a lot of programs that have a Sam Gilbert or Bill Rapp lurking in the shadows. Overzealous boosters are a thing in numerous football and basketball programs across the country.

Btw Wooden won several titles before Gilbert showed up at UCLA in 1967. Neither Alcindor nor Walton's decision to come to UCLA had anything to do with Sam Gilbert. In fact most reports indicate that Gilbert was even more involved with UCLA after Wooden retired.

You need to do more research. That’s the last I’ll say because this topic bores me.

 

[longtimefan]

100 articles?

The NCAA investigated and found that Wooden wasn't complicit in any of it. I'm sure he should have kept a tighter rein on his players and program. Sound familiar?

He supposedly warned his players to stay away from Gilbert. There a lot of programs that have a Sam Gilbert or Bill Rapp lurking in the shadows. Overzealous boosters are a thing in numerous football and basketball programs across the country.

Btw Wooden won several titles before Gilbert showed up at UCLA in 1967. Neither Alcindor nor Walton's decision to come to UCLA had anything to do with Sam Gilbert. In fact most reports indicate that Gilbert was even more involved with UCLA after Wooden retired.

The story I remember about Alcindor's recruitment--

His parents were moved across the country, and his father was hired for a job that paid $25K, a lot of money in 1965.

Duke learned how that worked--see Trajan Langdon, Chris Duhon, and probably others.

 

[the villager]

Let’s talk about cheating. Does anyone correlate the decline in SU hoops with maybe no longer cheating?

 

[dasher]

100 articles?

The NCAA investigated and found that Wooden wasn't complicit in any of it. I'm sure he should have kept a tighter rein on his players and program. Sound familiar?

He supposedly warned his players to stay away from Gilbert. There a lot of programs that have a Sam Gilbert or Bill Rapp lurking in the shadows. Overzealous boosters are a thing in numerous football and basketball programs across the country.

Btw Wooden won several titles before Gilbert showed up at UCLA in 1967. Neither Alcindor nor Walton's decision to come to UCLA had anything to do with Sam Gilbert. In fact most reports indicate that Gilbert was even more involved with UCLA after Wooden retired.

Bill Rapp wasn't in the same world as Sam Gilbert. Be fair.

 

[bpo57]

Bill Rapp wasn't in the same world as Sam Gilbert. Be fair.

True. He was a pontiac dealer while Gilbert was a construction guy.

 

[dasher]

True. He was a pontiac dealer while Gilbert was a construction guy.

He was small time and interacted with players after they were at Syracuse. I could be convinced that the access to cars was introduced during the recruiting process but I don't know that.

 

[bpo57]

The story I remember about Alcindor's recruitment--

His parents were moved across the country, and his father was hired for a job that paid $25K, a lot of money in 1965.

Duke learned how that worked--see Trajan Langdon, Chris Duhon, and probably others.

There is a good video on youtube with Jabbar where he talks about his recruitment at UCLA. He said for the first 30 minutes all Wooden talked about was education. Never mentioned basketball. He also said he wanted to get out of NY because there was a lot of racial unrest at the time and he felt like UCLA offered a more tranquil environment.

In an earlier thread here I mentioned that Wooden coached a black player in 1947 and stood up for him in several circumstances. Jabbar said he learned that story from somebody else. Wooden never told him that which would have surely curried favor with Jabbar. Jabbar couldn't speak more highly of Wooden. Same with Walton. Walton likes to tell the story of how he didn't want to get his hair cut at Wooden's request and Wooden told him "well William it's been nice having you on the team." There are plenty of stories to counteract the view that Wooden was corrupt.

 

[longtimefan]

There is a good video on youtube with Jabbar where he talks about his recruitment at UCLA. He said for the first 30 minutes all Wooden talked about was education. Never mentioned basketball. He also said he wanted to get out of NY because there was a lot of racial unrest at the time and he felt like UCLA offered a more tranquil environment.

In an earlier thread here I mentioned that Wooden coached a black player in 1947 and stood up for him in several circumstances. Jabbar said he learned that story from somebody else. Wooden never told him that which would have surely curried favor with Jabbar. Jabbar couldn't speak more highly of Wooden. Same with Walton. Walton likes to tell the story of how he didn't want to get his hair cut at Wooden's request and Wooden told him "well William it's been nice having you on the team." There are plenty of stories to counteract the view that Wooden was corrupt.

I don't know whether to believe it, but the story at the time was Holy Cross, with Alcindor's former high school coach Donahue, was the runner-up for Ferdinand.

 

[dasher]

There is a good video on youtube with Jabbar where he talks about his recruitment at UCLA. He said for the first 30 minutes all Wooden talked about was education. Never mentioned basketball. He also said he wanted to get out of NY because there was a lot of racial unrest at the time and he felt like UCLA offered a more tranquil environment.

In an earlier thread here I mentioned that Wooden coached a black player in 1947 and stood up for him in several circumstances. Jabbar said he learned that story from somebody else. Wooden never told him that which would have surely curried favor with Jabbar. Jabbar couldn't speak more highly of Wooden. Same with Walton. Walton likes to tell the story of how he didn't want to get his hair cut at Wooden's request and Wooden told him "well William it's been nice having you on the team." There are plenty of stories to counteract the view that Wooden was corrupt.

Two different issues that have nothing to with corruption. You can be corrupt and not be racist. You can be corrupt and be enlightened about other matters. As for Walton, that had to do with team discipline.

 

[bpo57]

I don't know whether to believe it, but the story at the time was Holy Cross, with Alcindor's former high school coach Donahue, was the runner-up for Ferdinand.

I just read a story that said he made a courtesy visit to HC because Donohue (former Power Memorial HC) had recently gone there but that he had no serious interest in playing for the Crusaders. The runner-ups were supposedly St. John's and Michigan.

 

[capeorange]

Sam Gilbert (businessman) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Gilbert began his relationship with UCLA basketball sometime around 1966-1967" Wooden had won two national championships by then and already recruited the Alcindor group. The article suggested that Gilbert 'recruited' players not for Wooden but recruited Wooden's players for himself so he could become their agent. Wooden didn't win 10 national championships because of Sam Gilbert.

A couple of additional points of view.

John Wooden: "The Wizard of Dishonesty" - The Grueling Truth

The truth about John Wooden's time at UCLA and the greatest college sports dynasty of all time!...

thegruelingtruth.com

Sam Gilbert, a surrogate father and adviser to UCLA... - UPI Archives

Sam Gilbert, a surrogate father and adviser to UCLA athletes for 15 years, allegedly arranged and paid for abortions for the players' girlfriends and helped...

www.upi.com

 

[bpo57]

Two different issues that have nothing to with corruption. You can be corrupt and not be racist. You can be corrupt and be enlightened about other matters. As for Walton, that had to do with team discipline.

I know but could you see other coaches cutting the best player in the country because he wore his hair long? Everybody wore their hair long back then. Seems a wildly corrupt win at all costs kinda guy wouldn't take that chance, no?

 

[bpo57]

Two different issues that have nothing to with corruption. You can be corrupt and not be racist. You can be corrupt and be enlightened about other matters. As for Walton, that had to do with team discipline.

Jabbar and Walton explicitly praise Wooden for his character. As have many others. I'm agnostic, don't necessarily believe one side over the other.

 

[dasher]

Jabbar and Walton explicitly praise Wooden for his character. As have many others. I'm agnostic, don't necessarily believe one side over the other.

I don't know that anyone that is getting things thinks the person responsible has bad character. And I never thought much of Walton's character back then. Had some strange, to say the least, friends.

 

[bpo57]

I don't know that anyone that is getting things thinks the person responsible has bad character. And I never thought much of Walton's character back then. Had some strange, to say the least, friends.

yeah that's where we venture into the unknown. Is there proof that Jabbar and Walton were being paid or receiving benefits? And if they were receiving benefits were they much different than what went on at other major D-1 teams across the country. I don't know the answers to those questions.

 

[orangedave]

In 2003 they couldn’t have been nicer people. Maybe the nice ones go to final 4s?

I was there too and agree with you

 

[orangedave]

True but unc fans are awful. I have family in Charlotte and trust me, unc fans are the worst

IMO, no worse than the UConn fans in the Big East days.

 

[SWC75]

A couple of additional points of view.

John Wooden: "The Wizard of Dishonesty" - The Grueling Truth

The truth about John Wooden's time at UCLA and the greatest college sports dynasty of all time!...

thegruelingtruth.com

Sam Gilbert, a surrogate father and adviser to UCLA... - UPI Archives

Sam Gilbert, a surrogate father and adviser to UCLA athletes for 15 years, allegedly arranged and paid for abortions for the players' girlfriends and helped...

www.upi.com

From the first article:

"In John Wooden’s first 19 seasons, he lost a total of 137 games, qualified for seven NCAA Tournaments, three Final Fours, and won two National Championships. That’s the record of a Hall of Fame coach, but not of the greatest coach of all-time." So Sam Gilbert didn't make John Wooden into a Hall of Fame coach. And Wooden had already recruited the Alcindor group that won three more titles. An their success surely had as much to do with the schools' subsequent success as Gilbert's parties.

"The people that do know about Gilbert will usually say Gilbert was never found to have helped Wooden with recruiting. While that’s true, do you really expect me to believe that word didn’t get around the entire country that a player will be taken care of if you chooses to go play for UCLA?" So the author acknowledges Gilbert didn't recruit the players, even after he showed up. Did they come to UCLA simply because of Gilbert?

"“There were two people I listened to,” former UCLA star Lucius Allen once told The Times. “Coach Wooden as long as we were between the lines. Outside the court, Sam Gilbert.” Gilbert didn't coach the team. Wooden did.

The second article contains nothing new except an allegation by three players from other schools that Gilbert had offered them cars to got to UCLA. obviously that didn't work. All three players are from the really 80's, long after Wooden had retired.

Has there ever been a guy who played for Wooden who said that he won those championships because of Gilbert? I've never heard any of them say that.

 

[bpo57]

You need to do more research. That’s the last I’ll say because this topic bores me.

You did a lot of research but the topic bores you. Okay Yogi.

 

[kirbivore]

You need to do more research. That’s the last I’ll say because this topic bores me.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The horse is dead!