NCAAT Expansion

[swish7]

Blows my mind that people want to try and fix something that isn’t broken.

1- When play in teams reach the final 8, its broken
2 - TV wants to make money
3 - Opening it up more adds to the allure & appeal

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The reasons have been clearly pointed out some of you choose to ignore them and only accept the explanations for not expanding. Like I said disagree all you want that’s what we do plenty of here. There is logic behind the expansion paired with the state of the game today. To say it’s the same as it was when 64 worked perfectly is naive.

The only reason I have seen mentioned is % but that is a completely false and disingenuous point. Do we really want 44 of 79 P5 schools making it?
If the tournament expands it will be mainly mediocre P5 schools as those extra teams. For every Indiana State there will be 3 SUs.

If they are going to expand and it meant more little guys I would feel differently. But it will likely mean 5-6 more P5s, and teams from upper mid majors, ie teams that don’t belong. No one outside of an SU fan wants to see last year’s team in the NCAAs.

I would also feel a lot differently if they made a requirement of 20 Ws and .500 in conference to be eligible for an at large. There needs to be some meaning to the season. How would routinely allowing 8-12 teams in conference an at large be a good thing?

Or any other way of choosing and seeding teams that was not completely subjective.

Every school is “in” the NCAAs already via the conference tournaments.

 

[Orangezoo]

The only reason I have seen mentioned is % but that is a completely false and disingenuous point. Do we really want 44 of 79 P5 schools making it?
If the tournament expands it will be mainly mediocre P5 schools as those extra teams. For every Indiana State there will be 3 SUs.

If they are going to expand and it meant more little guys I would feel differently. But it will likely mean 5-6 more P5s, and teams from upper mid majors, ie teams that don’t belong. No one outside of an SU fan wants to see last year’s team in the NCAAs.

I would also feel a lot differently if they made a requirement of 20 Ws and .500 in conference to be eligible for an at large. There needs to be some meaning to the season. How would routinely allowing 8-12 teams in conference an at large be a good thing?

Or any other way of choosing and seeding teams that was not completely subjective.

Every school is “in” the NCAAs already via the conference tournaments.

Pct is not just power 5. That’s purposely diluting the point and it’s a fair variable in the wider context. More conferences than ever had had their say in the tournament.

Like anything you have to expand with purpose not just expand. So you start with growing the tourney then work on how that expansion is applied across the country and the conferences. Getting all the conference regular season winners into the tourney is one way to do it. Setting more minimum requirements could work too. That said expansion is logical in this landscape as is having structure around it. Start somewhere and find the right balance.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Pct is not just power 5. That’s purposely diluting the point and it’s a fair variable in the wider context. More conferences than ever had had their say in the tournament.

Like anything you have to expand with purpose not just expand. So you start with growing the tourney then work on how that expansion is applied across the country and the conferences. Getting all the conference regular season winners into the tourney is one way to do it. Setting more minimum requirements could work too. That said expansion is logical in this landscape as is having structure around it. Start somewhere and find the right balance.

If you add in the conference regular season champs then we are talking a full day on Tuesday and Wednesday with 96 teams?

While that seems enticing on the surface (four day event) if they seed it 1-96 it will be the Cinderellas playing those first days which puts them at a disadvantage for their next game and makes upset runs less likely. That is part of the NCAAT fun. Those 13-14 seeds are now 17-18 seeds who have to play a game on T/W and then have to play a fresh 1-2 seed on TH/F.

It would be naive to think that any expansion wouldn’t mainly benefit the P5 in both participants and money. That is another problem with expansion, it is driven not for the sport but for the power players to benefit. Sure if done right expansion sounds nice, but it won’t be done that way.

 

[Orangezoo]

If you add in the conference regular season champs then we are talking a full day on Tuesday and Wednesday with 96 teams?

While that seems enticing on the surface (four day event) if they seed it 1-96 it will be the Cinderellas playing those first days which puts them at a disadvantage for their next game and makes upset runs less likely. That is part of the NCAAT fun. Those 13-14 seeds are now 17-18 seeds who have to play a game on T/W and then have to play a fresh 1-2 seed on TH/F.

It would be naive to think that any expansion wouldn’t mainly benefit the P5 in both participants and money. That is another problem with expansion, it is driven not for the sport but for the power players to benefit. Sure if done right expansion sounds nice, but it won’t be done that way.

How does the current format not continue to support consolidation and further increase the benefit to the P5 even more though? That’s the other side of this. Sitting idle is to watch this fall apart at the seams in the current landscape. As the 5th year Covid rule is gone now more and more 2 and 3 yr talents will bail from the smaller conferences. So I get the point but it’s only supporting further consolidation which also dilutes the beauty of the tournament. We aren’t living in a vacuum here.

Might as well prepare to shrink top level of Cbb to 150 teams or less and move the rest to D2

 

[Cappy3]

Change is a beautiful thing, when there is a problem. This is a "solution" in search of a problem.

The conference tournaments already serve as a de facto extension of the NCAA tournament. There is no sport more forgiving than college basketball. 0-30 in the regular season? All good. You're still alive.

To each their own, but when I watch the tourney, I never for a nanosecond have said to myself, "ya know this thing is pretty good, but what it REALLY needs is more Dayton."

I wonder if deep down the reason why some here want expansion is because we have sucked so much over the past decade and it will increase our chances of stumbling into the tourney. I just don't think lowering the bar is the answer. Let's get back to being an actual tourney-caliber program instead of Lori Loughlining our way in.

Completely agree. I certainly never find myself saying gee I wish more 17-15 teams were in this tournament (unless, maybe, it’s SU).

 

[IthacaMatt]

Matt your perspective is aged. Everything has changed plain and simple. That’s not to say it wasn’t perfect for a long time but it just isn’t anymore.

Yeah, but why make it demonstrably worse? Why devalue your most valuable asset? I just don't get it. More is not always "more".

 

[IthacaMatt]

1- When play in teams reach the final 8, its broken
2 - TV wants to make money
3 - Opening it up more adds to the allure & appeal

You know, I don't think so.
College basketball has 10+ games available every night on one cable network or another.
Plus all the rest on streaming.

Football plays once a week. Football gets way better ratings, in part due to the scarcity of the product. Supply and demand, right? And then mix in the history / pageantry of tailgating at a campus for a fall weekend college football vs. a game in a fieldhouse on a cold January night.

 

[swish7]

You know, I don't think so.
College basketball has 10+ games available every night on one cable network or another.
Plus all the rest on streaming.

Football plays once a week. Football gets way better ratings, in part due to the scarcity of the product. Supply and demand, right? And then mix in the history / pageantry of tailgating at a campus for a fall weekend college football vs. a game in a fieldhouse on a cold January night.

Widen the net. The precious round of 64 will still exist.

I don't think it matters all that much, personally.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Part of me wants to go FA Cup style - seed the top 64 as we do now, and let all the others in (randomly seeded) to fight their way to the round of 64.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Umm, no. I root for SU and certainly enjoyed that run. But again, it’s a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP tourney. If you finish 9th in your conference, how can you claim you should have a shot at being the best in the country? What was the regular season for, if not to determine who the best teams are?

If you win your conference tournament as the 9th seed, you still get in the NCAA tournament.

 

[Cuse181]

Blows my mind that people want to try and fix something that isn’t broken.

Who says anything about fixing? This is all about more money. More games = more money. Simple as that

 

[Cusefan0307]

You know, I don't think so.
College basketball has 10+ games available every night on one cable network or another.
Plus all the rest on streaming.

Football plays once a week. Football gets way better ratings, in part due to the scarcity of the product. Supply and demand, right? And then mix in the history / pageantry of tailgating at a campus for a fall weekend college football vs. a game in a fieldhouse on a cold January night.

That’s not why football gets better ratings.

 

[Cusefan0307]

They should merge the NIT with the NCAA tournament. That way regular season mid major champions get in. I can’t believe people are so up in arms about this. Suck teams got in during the 80’s too. More so than now.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

They should merge the NIT with the NCAA tournament. That way regular season mid major champions get in. I can’t believe people are so up I. arms about this. Suck teams got in during the 80’s too. More so than now.

This is a stupendous idea.

Whatever the expansion is, I’d like to see regular season conference champs get an auto bid, as well as the tourney champ. We should be rewarding season long excellence as well as a miracle run.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How does the current format not continue to support consolidation and further increase the benefit to the P5 even more though? That’s the other side of this. Sitting idle is to watch this fall apart at the seams in the current landscape. As the 5th year Covid rule is gone now more and more 2 and 3 yr talents will bail from the smaller conferences. So I get the point but it’s only supporting further consolidation which also dilutes the beauty of the tournament. We aren’t living in a vacuum here.

Might as well prepare to shrink top level of Cbb to 150 teams or less and move the rest to D2

Did they take away the auto bids for all these small and mid-major conferences? I must have missed it.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I have no faith in us regularly making it without the expansion so why not?

The Big Ten and SEC schools want more teams it would just be at our expense.

Oh the horrors of having playing games from noon to midnight Tuesday and Wednesday that week sounds awful...

 

[HRE Otto IV]

They should merge the NIT with the NCAA tournament. That way regular season mid major champions get in. I can’t believe people are so up in arms about this. Suck teams got in during the 80’s too. More so than now.

Do you like Cinderellas? Adding more teams will push those teams down several seed lines. So now they have a first round game against a similar calibre team, then have to play 2 days later against a fresh team that is a higher seed than they play under the current system, and then a 3rd game two days later. It makes it significantly harder for the little guy to get to the Sweet 16. Cinderellas often lack depth and playing 3 games in 5 days will make them few and far between.

Any expansion will be to the benefit of the P5 schools as the majority of the extra bids will go to them, the majority of the money will go to them, and it will be easier for those schools to advance further while the non P5 schools will have a harder time. I don't think that is a good thing.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Do you like Cinderellas? Adding more teams will push those teams down several seed lines. So now they have a first round game against a similar calibre team, then have to play 2 days later against a fresh team that is a higher seed than they play under the current system, and then a 3rd game two days later. It makes it significantly harder for the little guy to get to the Sweet 16. Cinderellas often lack depth and playing 3 games in 5 days will make them few and far between.

Any expansion will be to the benefit of the P5 schools as the majority of the extra bids will go to them, the majority of the money will go to them, and it will be easier for those schools to advance further while the non P5 schools will have a harder time. I don't think that is a good thing.

You’re not following.

I’m asking for regular season conference winners of mid and low majors to get auto bids along with their tournament winners. It would get the Indiana States of the world in. Sure suck St. Johns and Nova likely get in but they aren’t getting high seeds.

And fwiw take a look at the records of power 5 schools who made it on the bubble in the 80’s. Schools regularly below .500 in conference. It‘s like all of you who are against expansion have collective amnesia.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You’re not following.

I’m asking for regular season conference winners of mid and low majors to get auto bids along with their tournament winners. It would get the Indiana States of the world in. Sure suck St. Johns and Nova likely get in but they aren’t getting high seeds.

And fwiw take a look at the records of power 5 schools who made it on the bubble in the 80’s. Schools regularly below .500 in conference. It‘s like all of you who are against expansion have collective amnesia.

I get what you are saying but you are not getting the consequences. That St Johns team is getting a higher seed than last year's 13+ seeds which means those schools are no longer seeded where they were. Sure Indiana State now makes it but it is worse for 90% of the little guys than the current system. To me that isn't worth it.

Even for Indiana State they would get a 12 seed have to play a 21 seed on T/W then play a fresh 5 seed TH/F then likely play a fresher 4 seed S/Su. Sure they are now in, but their path is harder.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I get what you are saying but you are not getting the consequences. That St Johns team is getting a higher seed than last year's 13+ seeds which means those schools are no longer seeded where they were. Sure Indiana State now makes it but it is worse for 90% of the little guys than the current system. To me that isn't worth it.

Even for Indiana State they would get a 12 seed have to play a 21 seed on T/W then play a fresh 5 seed TH/F then likely play a fresher 4 seed S/Su. Sure they are now in, but their path is harder.

Take a look at this year NIT seedings and get back to me. There needs to be some appeasance to power conference schools or eventually they are just going to create their own tournament with ZERO cinderellas.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Take a look at this year NIT seedings and get back to me. There needs to be some appeasance to power conference schools or eventually they are just going to create their own tournament with ZERO cinderellas.

What are you trying to say here? Get back to you about what?

There were no Cinderallas in the Sweet 16 last year. In 2023 we had Princeton who was a 15 seed. If you expand the tournament to add auto qualifiers and an equal offset of at larges to keep the P5 happy, Princeton is now an 18 seed having to play a 15 seed in the first round, then a fresh 2 seed Arizona in the 2nd round, then a fresher 7 seed Mizzou in the 3rd round. The chances of them making the Sweet 16 have decreased significantly. That will be the case for every little conference team which means less Cinderellas in the future.

 

[Cusefan0307]

What are you trying to say here? Get back to you about what?

There were no Cinderallas in the Sweet 16 last year. In 2023 we had Princeton who was a 15 seed. If you expand the tournament to add auto qualifiers and an equal offset of at larges to keep the P5 happy, Princeton is now an 18 seed having to play a 15 seed in the first round, then a fresh 2 seed Arizona in the 2nd round, then a fresher 7 seed Mizzou in the 3rd round. The chances of them making the Sweet 16 have decreased significantly. That will be the case for every little conference team which means less Cinderellas in the future.

You don’t understand at all. You and a few others are just mad they’re expanding while failing to understand why.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You don’t understand at all. You and a few others are just mad they’re expanding while failing to understand why.

Thanks for keeping on topic and addressing my question.


Edit

Another consequence is less money in many cases for the smaller conferences. Right now all conferences get Round of 64 money even if they lose their game. If you go to 88 or 96, then those conferences are only guaranteed round of 88/96 money. Sure those conferences will have more teams, but many will end up with less money. Let's not act like expanding is making things more equitable financially.

The same can be said with equity within the competition. Right now those teams need to win 2 games in 3 days to get to the Sweet 16. In a 88/96 team NCAAT they will need to win 3 games in 5 days. They will mainly be picking each other off in the 1st round, then have to play a fresh Top 25 team in the 2nd round, and likely a Top 40 fresher team in the 3rd round. Their path to the Sweet 16 just got a lot harder. No equity in that.

Going to 88/96 will mean that 66-75% of the P5 will make the NCAAT every year. There will be years where you will see schools that end up 14th in conference making it. Which completely diminishes the regular season and the conference tournaments for those schools.


The biggest positive is that you are a lot more likely to have the Top 64 teams in the round of 64, instead of only the Top 50 with a bunch outsiders. That in turn makes for a better way to crown a Champ.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Thanks for keeping on topic and addressing my question.

There’s zero question to address. Either expand or some/all power conference teams are going to create their own tournament where they have absolute power