ND's Swarbrick is happy with ACC and...

[Phillymoose]

Have you ever been anywhere in life where it was clear to you that you didn't fit> That the others there were --- or thought they were --- richer or smarter or more clever than you? It's not a great feeling.

It manifests itself in many ways from the chants of the student body to comments by the athletes and coaches to interaction between the fan bases in all sorts of situations.

Maryland fans always thought of Duke as one of their principle rivals. Duke fans chanted at them "We are not your rival". The Duke fans wanted the Maryland people to know that no matter how good their teams were that the Duke fans didn't see Maryland as being in the same universe. Duke was above granting "rival" status to Maryland.

And the Maryland fans could only take it ... and they hated it.

So they cried and ran away to the B1G where the OSU, Mich and PSU fans will do the same thing - only worse? MD wasn't disgruntled - just cash strapped.
Is the entire MD fanbase really that emotionally fragile? because the Dukies made them feel inferior.

Conference affiliation is not like a HS clique. You get together once in a while and vote on stuff. You play an athletic schedule. You collect checks.
No one has just enrolled in ACC High School. Louisville will find like-minded voters, as will SU.
It has come out lately that SU voted in ways none of us would have predicted in Big East matters. Are we closer to Duke because of JB's relationship to K, or are we closer to Miami because of various historical ties? Or are we now in a blood bond with BC because of proximity? I think the North vs. South stuff is way overblown- people say stuff - mostly in jest, but very rarely act on it. They can keep their attitude if they want - just as long as I see streaks of Orange inside Cameron while we lay the wood to them. In fact - it will be much more enjoyable if they keep the attitude.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

I don't how I can make it any clearer than saying I was one of those that said UL would never be invited.

So when the ACC invited UL, I was clearly proven 100% wrong.

But what White is saying is that UL isn't as bad as I was saying it was. He's not admitting to a "paradigm shift". He's saying that using the old criteria for membership that UL passed. Much to his apparent surprised because when he was at ND he had a lower opinion of the school.

I'll stick with my opinion that UL is a poor fit in the ACC. In retrospect WVU would have been a better choice. But they were gone when the ACC had to quickly grab a replacement for Maryland.

The paradigm shift was that prior to the invitation to Louisville the Carolina Mafia called the shots in the ACC. The schools calling the shots now are the "football schools" like FSU and Clemson. The days of Duke, UNC and Wake deciding what's best for the conference are over.

 

[Townie72]

The paradigm shift: The ACC last Spring had to come to the realization that Football was telling them they were 5th and fading. Louisville came a very real possibility after that...they truly were the one attainable eastern (loosely defined) public school which could deliver more than basketball.

I agree if MD hadn't left they would still be in the Psycho Ditched Ex-Girlfriend Conference...but would be on the sideline still being oogled as eye-candy by the B12/ACC.

Here's the ex post facto chain of events I think happened.

1. Clemson and FSU start pissing an moaning about the ACC as a football conference and start flirting with the Big 12 and SEC.

2. WVU joins the Big 12 and is unavailable.

3. Maryland bolts to B1G

4. Faced with a need to backfill Maryland and wanting to throw FSU and Clemson a bone with WVU "off the board" , ACC picks Louisville, defending UL academics as "not being as bad as they used to be".

4A. ACC doesn't pick UConn because its further away from FSU and Clemson (two of the schools they are trying to placate), UConn has had some problems with their basketball, UConn led the suit against the ACC in 2003 and BC says they are a bunch of azzholes. (FSU and UL are buddies from their day in the Metro Conference)

I'm not sure I see a paradign shift here. Just a string of events. ACC is pretty much on the same strategy that they were on before the first raid in 2003.

 

[Jake]

I would have to think the ACC is pretty happy about the Catholic 7 split as well. If it is true that Delany's end game is Notre Dame, then blowing up the ACC won't force ND to join the Big Ten, it'll force ND to the Catholic hoop league.

This also puts more pressure on Delany to leverage the BTN into NYC and DC.

 

[Townie72]

So they cried and ran away to the B1G where the OSU, Mich and PSU fans will do the same thing - only worse? MD wasn't disgruntled - just cash strapped.
Is the entire MD fanbase really that emotionally fragile? because the Dukies made them feel inferior.

Conference affiliation is not like a HS clique. You get together once in a while and vote on stuff. You play an athletic schedule. You collect checks.
No one has just enrolled in ACC High School. Louisville will find like-minded voters, as will SU.
It has come out lately that SU voted in ways none of us would have predicted in Big East matters. Are we closer to Duke because of JB's relationship to K, or are we closer to Miami because of various historical ties? Or are we now in a blood bond with BC because of proximity? I think the North vs. South stuff is way overblown- people say stuff - mostly in jest, but very rarely act on it. They can keep their attitude if they want - just as long as I see streaks of Orange inside Cameron while we lay the wood to them. In fact - it will be much more enjoyable if they keep the attitude.

Perfect Philly sensitivity.

I'll agree ... Maryland left only for the money.

But the Maryland fan base always seethed with their perceived treatment by the ACC blue-bloods. And Louisville is far down the pecking order from Maryland.

Talk to me in a couple of years.

 

[sufan]

Look, I don't really care. This board is loaded with people who have zero, to little, to incomplete knowledge, popping off with declarative statements. It's amusing really, especially knowing that the people who are literally in charge of this stuff: conference commissioners, university Presidents and athletic directors, are not aware of everything that's going on (see: Cincinnati) and/or are making decisions based on criteria that are changing in real-time (see: B1G, ACC).

I'm not trying to call you out specifically Townie. I just see so many "Well, I was wrong, but I was really right!" comments and it cracks me up.

"Frequently wrong, never uncertain"
As when someone declared MD would never leave the ACC: something about the "Terrapin club".

As when someone declared RU would be left behind as a University since it has nothing to offer to any major conference.

As when someone declared SU would be unable to compete in major college athletics since it is a small private university in an economically left behind central NY.




Could be a lot worse: see WVU conference realignment boards revealing secret documents, secret meetings and confidential "done deals".

 

[Townie72]

The paradigm shift was that prior to the invitation to Louisville the Carolina Mafia called the shots in the ACC. The schools calling the shots now are the "football schools" like FSU and Clemson. The days of Duke, UNC and Wake deciding what's best for the conference are over.

How does the departure of Maryland and the selection of UL lead you to believe that FSU and Clemson are "in charge".

How about, the ACC leadership is paying more attention to the needs and complaints of the football schools. We are not yet sure who is "in charge".

And besides, who would the "basketball schools" added if not Louisville? UL basketball is as strong as UL football.

 

[oldpinepoint]

I would have to think the ACC is pretty happy about the Catholic 7 split as well. If it is true that Delany's end game is Notre Dame, then blowing up the ACC won't force ND to join the Big Ten, it'll force ND to the Catholic hoop league.

This also puts more pressure on Delany to leverage the BTN into NYC and DC.

Very good thought jake. Haven't considered this but if it is believed that the Big Tens ultimate goal is ND, certainly this makes it more difficult as it gives another landing spot to ND in the event the ACC ever implodes.

 

[Townie72]

I would have to think the ACC is pretty happy about the Catholic 7 split as well. If it is true that Delany's end game is Notre Dame, then blowing up the ACC won't force ND to join the Big Ten, it'll force ND to the Catholic hoop league.

This also puts more pressure on Delany to leverage the BTN into NYC and DC.

When I first read this post, I didn't understand a word of it. But after re-reading it, I think its pure genius. It's really about the vacuum that's been created by the death of the Big East as we knew it.

First, the Catholic 7 split killed the Big East. I have never thought that was Swofford's strategy --- as some of the paranoid WVU fans and others thought. But, regardless, this kills the Big East. It's dead. The ACC may be now unchallenged as a basketball conference in the East and South.

Could The Catholic 7 plus Xavier and St Louis and whoever give the ACC or the Big Ten some competition for basketball? Sure But it's not going to be anywhere near as strong as the Big East with SU and Pitt and WVU and UL have been.

The death of the Big East --- or the radical shrinking of it --- creates a vacuum in the east. Who rushes in to take it? Of those TV viewers who would have watched the Big East basketball or football on a Saturday ... Now many now watch either the ACC or the Big Ten?

I'd say SU, Pitt, and ND give the edge to the ACC in basketball. Football, I'm not sure. I don't think the Big East football audience was all that big.

 

[Townie72]

"Frequently wrong, never uncertain"
As when someone declared MD would never leave the ACC: something about the "Terrapin club".

As when someone declared RU would be left behind as a University since it has nothing to offer to any major conference.

As when someone declared SU would be unable to compete in major college athletics since it is a small private university in an economically left behind central NY.




Could be a lot worse: see WVU conference realignment boards revealing secret documents, secret meetings and confidential "done deals".

You need to read up on what Maryland has been saying to try and bring the Terrapin Club along with them on this. They took a huge gamble that maybe they had to take because of the financial hole they were in. We'll see what happens. But if it doens't work and they can't sell the Terrapin Club, both Loh and Anderson are dead meat.

Rutgers --- the athletic program and the school --- were undesirable. What the Big Ten got was cable subscribers. Rutgers --- the school--- was not selected in any of the earlier expansions until the B1G criteria became "number of cable subscribers".

Syracuse... can compete in the ACC. Its too small to compete in the Big Ten. It's OK to criticize, but don;t make stuff up or take things out of context.

 

[Arizona Knight]

You need to read up on what Maryland has been saying to try and bring the Terrapin Club along with them on this. They took a huge gamble that maybe they had to take because of the financial hole they were in. We'll see what happens. But if it doens't work and they can't sell the Terrapin Club, both Loh and Anderson are dead meat.

Rutgers --- the athletic program and the school --- were undesirable. What the Big Ten got was cable subscribers. Rutgers --- the school--- was not selected in any of the earlier expansions until the B1G criteria became "number of cable subscribers".

Syracuse... can compete in the ACC. Its too small to compete in the Big Ten. It's OK to criticize, but don;t make stuff up or take things out of context.

Seriously? Rather than just admit you were objectively wrong you spin this post?

First off, Maryland is gone. You said they would never leave the ACC because of this vaunted Terrapin Club. Well the biggest swinging in the Terrapin Club, Kevin Plank, was a B1G supporter of the move. You can only be wrong or right on this one Townie and you were wrong.

Rutgers is gone. You said Rutgers would never get an invite anywhere, let alone the Big Ten. You laughed at the thought. You pointed out that the additions of Penn State and Nebraska were clear indications of the Big Ten's expansion strategy. Delany has always wanted to expand east and has always been seeking more real estate for the BTN. Everyone seemed to be aware of this to a degree, but you. You were wrong on this one, too.

 

[PhatOrange]

I would have to think the ACC is pretty happy about the Catholic 7 split as well. If it is true that Delany's end game is Notre Dame, then blowing up the ACC won't force ND to join the Big Ten, it'll force ND to the Catholic hoop league.

excellent point.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

How does the departure of Maryland and the selection of UL lead you to believe that FSU and Clemson are "in charge".

How about, the ACC leadership is paying more attention to the needs and complaints of the football schools. We are not yet sure who is "in charge".

And besides, who would the "basketball schools" added if not Louisville? UL basketball is as strong as UL football.

I would agree that we don't yet know exactly who is "in charge." It may end up being an informal association of strong football-playing schools or it may be a group of schools with strong performance in multiple sports, especially football and men's beasketball. I think it is clear, however, that the days of the Carolina Mafia, which many define as the academically elite Carolina schools, in particular Duke and UNC, as the "dictator" of the conference are over. That is a luxury none of the ACC schools can afford if the conference is to survive.

 

[Scooch]

I would agree that we don't yet know exactly who is "in charge." It may end up being an informal association of strong football-playing schools or it may be a group of schools with strong performance in multiple sports, especially football and men's beasketball. I think it is clear, however, that the days of the Carolina Mafia, which many define as the academically elite Carolina schools, in particular Duke and UNC, as the "dictator" of the conference are over. That is a luxury none of the ACC schools can afford if the conference is to survive.

In 2003 UNC and Duke repeatedly voted no against any expansion whatsoever. Their intransigence led to Virginia Tech being admitted as an 11th member (after Miami), much to the horror of Swofford and his consultants.

In 2012 the ACC admitted Louisville.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, case closed, thank you for your time.

 

[Jeepers]

The 4-4-4 is in charge, imo.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

In 2003 UNC and Duke repeatedly voted no against any expansion whatsoever. Their intransigence led to Virginia Tech being admitted as an 11th member (after Miami), much to the horror of Swofford and his consultants.

In 2012 the ACC admitted Louisville.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, case closed, thank you for your time.

You're right. I probably should have said "the days when Florida State and (maybe) Clemson believed, despite evidence to the contrary, that Duke and UNC dictated to the ACC, are clearly over."

 

[Scooch]

You're right. I probably should have said "the days when Florida State and (maybe) Clemson believed, despite evidence to the contrary, that Duke and UNC dictated to the ACC, are clearly over."

Oh no, I was agreeing with you.

2003 was when those schools "lost" for perhaps the first time.

I think it's fair to say that the Carolina/hoops influence was persistent and real, then began to wane about 10 years ago, and is now in serious decline.

 

[Townie72]

In 2003 UNC and Duke repeatedly voted no against any expansion whatsoever. Their intransigence led to Virginia Tech being admitted as an 11th member (after Miami), much to the horror of Swofford and his consultants.

In 2012 the ACC admitted Louisville.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, case closed, thank you for your time.

I see, what you are saying vis-a-vis VT. Because UNC and DU were consistent "No" votes, it gave UVA the leverage needed to get VT in (UVA acting as the unwilling surrogate for the Gov of Virginia).

But the logic that underlies the "ACC admitted Louisville" and therefore "Case closed" escapes me. What case is closed?

Let me try this again. The ACC leadership was forced to take a near equivalent school in 2003 to get the expansion deal closed (Only 2 "No" votes).

So in 2012, some or many schools are forced to swallow hard and accept a school with good athletic programs and academics that causes many of them to wince.Was the vote unanimous?

So they've gone to not wanting to accept anyone to accepting anyone?

And that's the ""paradigm shift"? And what's the case that has been closed?

 

[Townie72]

So the days of the All Carolina Conference are officially over as demonstrated by the invitation to the academic have-not, Louisville?

Well, I'm not sold yet. But it's possible.

By the way, from mid-1980's through the 1990's, do you know who had the strongest voice in the Big East? That's what Boeheim didn't want to give up back when the ACC was first being discussed.

 

[Scooch]

I see, what you are saying vis-a-vis VT. Because UNC and DU were consistent "No" votes, it gave UVA the leverage needed to get VT in (UVA acting as the unwilling surrogate for the Gov of Virginia).

But the logic that underlies the "ACC admitted Louisville" and therefore "Case closed" escapes me. What case is closed?

Let me try this again. The ACC leadership was forced to take a near equivalent school in 2003 to get the expansion deal closed (Only 2 "No" votes).

So in 2012, some or many schools are forced to swallow hard and accept a school with good athletic programs and academics that causes many of them to wince.Was the vote unanimous?

So they've gone to not wanting to accept anyone to accepting anyone?

And that's the ""paradigm shift"? And what's the case that has been closed?

Yes, I'm saying that UNC and Duke don't have the power to dictate terms to the conference any more. I'm not suggesting they don't have significant influence, but 2003 proved that they can't unilaterally decide things. And 2012 showed that in an era where football rules the roost, they have to choke on their ego to satisfy members like Florida State.

I'm not sure why this is a debate. It's reality.

 

[Scooch]

So the days of the All Carolina Conference are officially over as demonstrated by the invitation to the academic have-not, Louisville?

Well, I'm not sold yet. But it's possible.

By the way, from mid-1980's through the 1990's, do you know who had the strongest voice in the Big East? That's what Boeheim didn't want to give up back when the ACC was first being discussed.

A: Georgetown + Villanova + Seton Hall + St. John's + Providence

It was only their good grace that allowed a football conference to form, when SU, Pitt and BC threatened to go elsewhere. And they dictated who would be invited for full membership, and the terms of media contracts for the next several years.

 

[Townie72]

Yes, I'm saying that UNC and Duke don't have the power to dictate terms to the conference any more. I'm not suggesting they don't have significant influence, but 2003 proved that they can't unilaterally decide things. And 2012 showed that in an era where football rules the roost, they have to choke on their ego to satisfy members like Florida State.

I'm not sure why this is a debate. It's reality.

I was just trying to understand what you were positing.

The Carolina schools have ruled the ACC roost. But UNCs and Duke's behavior in 2003 doesn't do much to prove that. They lost. The ACC added VT instead of SU. But either way, Duke and UNC lost.

 

[Townie72]

A: Georgetown + Villanova + Seton Hall + St. John's + Providence

It was only their good grace that allowed a football conference to form, when SU, Pitt and BC threatened to go elsewhere. And they dictated who would be invited for full membership, and the terms of media contracts for the next several years.

My answer to that would have been Syracuse. The conference bent over backward for SU. It just didn't work out.

 

[Scooch]

I was just trying to understand what you were positing.

The Carolina schools have ruled the ACC roost. But UNCs and Duke's behavior in 2003 doesn't do much to prove that. They lost. The ACC added VT instead of SU. But either way, Duke and UNC lost.

Right, that was my point. I'm confused, but I *think* we may agree. Maybe.

 

[Scooch]

My answer to that would have been Syracuse. The conference bent over backward for SU. It just didn't work out.

I know that was going to be your answer.

Did you see what I did there?!

In all seriousness, one can argue it either way. The hoops schools will claim that they gave in repeatedly to football concerns and the conference broke up anyway. The football schools will claim that the conditions the hoops schools imposed and the enormous gulf in athletic commitment between the two sides doomed the conference.

Ultimately, it seems inevitable given the college facilities arms race that a conference with both Virginia Tech and Seton Hall was bound to fail. Cross-purposes, different agendas, and all.