need better offense to cut down the nets

[CorduroyG]

defense can get us to the f4 as we saw in 2013 and this year, whether its the zone or the press. but to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better. the zone didnt win it for us in the f4 in 2003, we scored 95 and 84 to beat texas and kansas. to beat unc we needed to match them offensively and we just werent good enough to do that. there was a great post before the tourny about how in recent years we usually lose in the tourny cause of a bad offensive game. . if we had just an average game offensviely against michigan in 2013 we would have won that game. nova played tough d this tourny but they were incredibly efficient on offense thats why they won it all. so what needs to change??

 

[SUGIANT]

If they had a low post presence they would have been much better, but they didn't. If they had some depth so Lydon didn't play center they'd be better. Personnel dictated the offense. I keep seeing this theme and without players changing the offense means nothing.

 

[Cuse House]

defense can get us to the f4 as we saw in 2013 and this year, whether its the zone or the press. but to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better. the zone didnt win it for us in the f4 in 2003, we scored 95 and 84 to beat texas and kansas. to beat unc we needed to match them offensively and we just werent good enough to do that. there was a great post before the tourny about how in recent years we usually lose in the tourny cause of a bad offensive game. . if we had just an average game offensviely against michigan in 2013 we would have won that game. nova played tough d this tourny but they were incredibly efficient on offense thats why they won it all. so what needs to change??

1) We need a low post threat for when our shots are not falling.
2) We need better ball movement. JB's offense relies too much on 1 on 1 drives. If you watched Nova, their ball movement was fast and they always made the extra pass. This opens up shooters and driving lanes.

Now here is the good news Corduroy, with Lydon back (hopefully 15-20 lbs heavier), some improvement from Coleman, and someone who we can just lob the ball up to (Chuckwu), our inside game should be much improved next year. We also should eat offensive rebounds for breakfast.

To backpack off my second point, we should be much better at ball movement next year as well. Battle is electric with the ball, and Howard has the potential to be one of the best distributors we've ever had. The kid just has it in the passing department, he just needs to be more focused and limit silly turnovers. We have had ball dominant guards the past few years, our best offensive teams were those where the ball never stopped moving. We should also be more of a fast break team than we have been the past 3-4 years, which will help.

Our offense can only improve... It has been pretty mediocre for a few years now.

 

[orangenirvana]

to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better.

so what needs to change??

It depends on how good your players are at "putting the biscuit in the basket."

We haven't had a real good collection of offensive players since 2012. If Richardson and Lydon return we could be pretty good offensively next season.

 

[Brooky03]

Yes. Defense has been the focus for the last few seasons, and we got 2 F4 runs out of it, but we need more offensive firepower if we want to get over the hump. The 2010 team was the last impressive offensive team that I remember and I still believe we would have 100% won the Title with Onuaku.

 

[CorduroyG]

Yes. Defense has been the focus for the last few seasons, and we got 2 F4 runs out of it, but we need more offensive firepower if we want to get over the hump. The 2010 team was the last impressive offensive team that I remember and I still believe we would have 100% won the Title with Onuaku.

yup the 2010 team was really the last team that had inside/outside balance. the 2012 team was lethal in the open court but struggled in the half court.

 

[OttoMets]

This could get lost in the other thread, so I'll quote some of what I said here:

Nova played like kids with the full toolbox of basketball skills. Love what we did last week, but last night was a reality check. Watching Nova, I saw a ton of stuff that we don't have and haven't had for a long time.

-Guys who can run a fast break with their heads up and find a teammate.
-Guys who can get to the rim and have a made lay-up be practically automatic (opening possession notwithstanding).
-Guards who can back down their defender and score.
-Big men who can be patient with their back to the basket, wait for personnel to move, and either take a hard dribble and score or rifle a letters-level pass to a shooter on the perimeter.

Our standards have dropped, especially with our weird post and guard play. We're happy when our point guard even identifies his teammate on a pick and roll, forget about how he executes a pass. We're quick to make a positive post praising our center when he doesn't bring the ball low on the block, a basic fundamental that is a given for the highest-level players. Taking the ball upcourt with under 5 seconds, legally screening two defenders, and delivering a good pass to an open shooter? Forget about it - see the Pittsburgh threads to realize how far we are from that kind of play.

Richardson, Lydon, and Howard are very nice offensive building blocks, but we've still got to improve by leaps and bounds to look anything like those two teams last night. We'd need big improvement from someone at the center position (and still not be nearly as good as Ochefu or anyone on Carolina). We need Roberson to be comfortable shooting from 15', not looking over his shoulder nervously and clogging up the offense. We've got to get all of our guards adept at delivering passes to a shooter's hands, not shins (for as much heat as Gbinije caught for blowing that catch on Saturday -- and it was bad -- since when do we ask an open player to gather a pass at his knees?).

The championship highlighted how far we are (and have been for four years) from having five guys who can all do everything a great team needs a player to do. There's a big difference between where we are and a complete team.

 

[Jack Hall]

defense can get us to the f4 as we saw in 2013 and this year, whether its the zone or the press. but to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better. the zone didnt win it for us in the f4 in 2003, we scored 95 and 84 to beat texas and kansas. to beat unc we needed to match them offensively and we just werent good enough to do that. there was a great post before the tourny about how in recent years we usually lose in the tourny cause of a bad offensive game. . if we had just an average game offensviely against michigan in 2013 we would have won that game. nova played tough d this tourny but they were incredibly efficient on offense thats why they won it all. so what needs to change??

I think you saw it this year, SU just needs more diversity. In Bahamas, i thought our offense was tough to scheme against, we kicked it around the perimeter, great ball movement, took like 20-30 3s, made a bunch, the defense had to expand, then we drove it. When we struggled after Baha we were primarily just a high ball screen, drive it offense. I was thrilled to see what JB did against Va, when the high ball screen wasnt going anywhere (was being blown up by Va as Bill Self would say) JB eventually in 2nd half went to more iso ball. Thats when Mali obviously thrived. You cant telegraph things and i think sometimes SU telegrapghs their offense. Great defenses will take advantage of that. I dont see any reason why Mali, Lydon, Howard, Battle cant hi screen and also run more iso offense next year. Also pass it/ spread it around the perimeter the way we did in Baha , ie vaguely the way GS and San Antonio play w the 3 ball. . Who knows maybe there even a chance we can run hilo post offense with Lydon and Pascal or DC? Get out on the fast break too? Never know. But i love to see JB willing to mix it up ala the Va game. We should have the personnel next year to mix things up...

 

[Jasoncuse]

I'm pretty convinced we'll never be a higher scoring program under JB anymore. The D slows the game down enough and our offensive gameplan just isn't quick enough or good enough to put up big numbers unless we have absolute elite talent.

Next year's offense will be ok, and possibly downright bad. Our success will be predicated on having an elite zone. I agree that we aren't winning a title unless we are much better offensively.

 

[Sinatra]

Haven't had the versatility in the offense in terms of ways to score the ball in quite some time. 2 years ago it was all about getting the ball into the post for Rakeem. This year there was none of that. Majority of our points were very reliant on shooting the 3 ball well. When we had the post game we couldn't shoot well from the outside. You need players that can create their own shot. Unfortunately, a lot of those players have left early. You have to be a complete team to win consistently. You have to have multiple options to score. Can't rely all on shooting from the outside. Can't rely all on post game. You need to have a little bit of both. Next year could be it if Mali stays. We'll have shooting, might have 2 players that can create their shot off the dribble (Mali & I expect Tyus Battle to be a stud), we just need a more consistent post game. Hopefully Dajuan and Paschal can develop some type of post game.

 

[Jack Hall]

I'm pretty convinced we'll never be a higher scoring program under JB anymore. The D slows the game down enough and our offensive gameplan just isn't quick enough or good enough to put up big numbers unless we have absolute elite talent.

Next year's offense will be ok, and possibly downright bad. Our success will be predicated on having an elite zone. I agree that we aren't winning a title unless we are much better offensively.

I see your point but what i truly believe is JB wants to run. But out of the zone to fast break consistently you need to really be able to rebound and block shots. That hasnt been SUs strength for a few years now...Pascal could change things, we shall see. Battle will be just a pup but he excels in open court. His coach has called him the fastest guy from point A to B he has seen...Also to fast break a lot you probably need some depth on bench. Lets see if JB can go deeper on bench next year. He may not be able to...

 

[Cuse House]

Press more and speed up the tempo would also help a ton. We need more possessions.

 

[Jack Hall]

1) We need a low post threat for when our shots are not falling.
2) We need better ball movement. JB's offense relies too much on 1 on 1 drives. If you watched Nova, their ball movement was fast and they always made the extra pass. This opens up shooters and driving lanes.

Now here is the good news Corduroy, with Lydon back (hopefully 15-20 lbs heavier), some improvement from Coleman, and someone who we can just lob the ball up to (Chuckwu), our inside game should be much improved next year. We also should eat offensive rebounds for breakfast.

To backpack off my second point, we should be much better at ball movement next year as well. Battle is electric with the ball, and Howard has the potential to be one of the best distributors we've ever had. The kid just has it in the passing department, he just needs to be more focused and limit silly turnovers. We have had ball dominant guards the past few years, our best offensive teams were those where the ball never stopped moving. We should also be more of a fast break team than we have been the past 3-4 years, which will help.

Our offense can only improve... It has been pretty mediocre for a few years now.

You say better ball movement w Battle. I hope youre right. When i have seen him he loves to drive it aggressively. Imo he is perfect for JBs hi ball screen. Just hope we have other offensive schemes too w Battle

 

[Cuse House]

You say better ball movement w Battle. I hope youre right. When i have seen him he loves to drive it aggressively. Imo he is perfect for JBs hi ball screen. Just hope we have other offensive schemes too w Battle

I think Battle is a smart player, he attacks gaps and can find open teammates or finish at the rim. He has no problem passing the ball to other guys. He didn't even shoot the most on his high school team. Good ball movements sets up drives for a guy like Battle because it gets the defense moving and out of position.

 

[Jack Hall]

I think Battle is a smart player, he attacks gaps and can find open teammates or finish at the rim. He has no problem passing the ball to other guys. He didn't even shoot the most on his high school team. Good ball movements sets up drives for a guy like Battle because it gets the defense moving and out of position.

I agree, the kid seems unselfish and seems to have real good bball iq. Next year should be a lot of fun again

 

[SU94]

defense can get us to the f4 as we saw in 2013 and this year, whether its the zone or the press. but to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better. the zone didnt win it for us in the f4 in 2003, we scored 95 and 84 to beat texas and kansas. to beat unc we needed to match them offensively and we just werent good enough to do that. there was a great post before the tourny about how in recent years we usually lose in the tourny cause of a bad offensive game. . if we had just an average game offensviely against michigan in 2013 we would have won that game. nova played tough d this tourny but they were incredibly efficient on offense thats why they won it all. so what needs to change??

From my seat, we have to play offensively 5-on-5 way more often. Our 5 and 4 have to be more than screeners and rebounders. I think Roberson has to again get the green light. And the center does not always have to be 6-foot-10 or taller. Believe it or not, next year with Coleman/Chukwu, I'd love to see us play 5-10 minutes a night with Lydon at the 5. Play our version of GS Warriors basketball (5-Lydon, 4-Roberson/Moyer, 3-Battle, 2-Malachi, 1-Howard).

 

[Jasoncuse]

I see your point but what i truly believe is JB wants to run. But out of the zone to fast break consistently you need to really be able to rebound and block shots. That hasnt been SUs strength for a few years now...Pascal could change things, we shall see. Battle will be just a pup but he excels in open court. His coach has called him the fastest guy from point A to B he has seen...Also to fast break a lot you probably need some depth on bench. Lets see if JB can go deeper on bench next year. He may not be able to...

Hope so, but either way, our defense does slow down the opposition, so we have to be really, really good offensively, including on the break, to put up the numbers other teams do.

 

[Jack Hall]

Hope so, but either way, our defense does slow down the opposition, so we have to be really, really good offensively, including on the break, to put up the numbers other teams do.

I hear you but here is what i struggle with: there really are two issues- pace of play and offensive efficiency. And they are separate issues, ie not nec related. As you point out JB has gone to a much more deliberate (slower) pace in recent years. I am actually ok w that and i love JBs zone. I think JB knows what hes doing with pace of play, ie i trust his judgement because i see it as part of his coaching brilliance. What obviously all us fans would like to see is greater offensive efficiency. ...But much of that is on the players and how they execute....ie JB obviously has more control over pace than he does over efficiency...

 

[44cuse]

1) We need a low post threat for when our shots are not falling. 2) We need better ball movement. JB's offense relies too much on 1 on 1 drives. If you watched Nova, their ball movement was fast and they always made the extra pass. This opens up shooters and driving lanes. Now here is the good news Corduroy, with Lydon back (hopefully 15-20 lbs heavier), some improvement from Coleman, and someone who we can just lob the ball up to (Chuckwu), our inside game should be much improved next year. We also should eat offensive rebounds for breakfast. To backpack off my second point, we should be much better at ball movement next year as well. Battle is electric with the ball, and Howard has the potential to be one of the best distributors we've ever had. The kid just has it in the passing department, he just needs to be more focused and limit silly turnovers. We have had ball dominant guards the past few years, our best offensive teams were those where the ball never stopped moving. We should also be more of a fast break team than we have been the past 3-4 years, which will help. Our offense can only improve... It has been pretty mediocre for a few years now.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, traditionally feeding the post has never been a strength of SU guards. So even with a stronger post presence, you still have to make the entry pass. It's pretty clear to me (at least IMO) that it's not been a focal point of our offense for many years in practice.

This year is clearly an exception, but I don't think (and I don't hear) anyone is talking JB up as an offensive wizard. He's a great coach but a technical offense has not been his choice. And BTW, just like the zone (which I don't personally agree with exclusively) I accept as a fan because the results are generally there. But I don't think anyone would argue that much of SU's brand in the court has been built on: 1. The Zone, 2. Letting players play (this used to be a cornerstone of the recruitment philosophy), 3. Points in transition out of TOs from the zone. Contrast that with teams that have more of a structured offensive identity.

Personally I don't know that I want a WISC type offense, but I really wouldn't mind more of a functional inside out game (again not basing that on just this year and yes I know ha relies on a big man or two who can also pass...I'm a warriors fan so I get it) and that all starts with the ability to make a good post entry pass.

44cuse

 

[Briancuse]

We need to work on finishing, we miss more layups and dunks than anyone I have ever seen. That would be a good start.

 

[djcon57]

Absolutely, you definitely notice the good vs great teams by their finishing in transition.

I rewatch those Gonzaga and Virginia games and see how well G finished in a couple huge break situations. A huge huge difference in getting a quick 2 vs having to fight for a basket in half court

 

[OttoMets]

Absolutely, you definitely notice the good vs great teams by their finishing in transition.

I rewatch those Gonzaga and Virginia games and see how well G finished in a couple huge break situations. A huge huge difference in getting a quick 2 vs having to fight for a basket in half court

Those Gbinije baskets were an underrated and integral piece to our comebacks. And he's noteworthy for finishing better than just about everyone on our team (which is cool - a huge improvement from where he started three years ago), but that further highlights how much our skill level has declined; Gbinije (63.5% at the rim, if these numbers are to be believed) isn't a great finisher by any means.

I don't hold out hope for our half-court offense making any great strides, but you're right that we should be able to make up for that in transition. Hopefully we're getting back to having a bunch of 72-75% finishers in the lineup.

 

[Dave85]

defense can get us to the f4 as we saw in 2013 and this year, whether its the zone or the press. but to win it all we gotta put the biscuit in the basket better. the zone didnt win it for us in the f4 in 2003, we scored 95 and 84 to beat texas and kansas. to beat unc we needed to match them offensively and we just werent good enough to do that. there was a great post before the tourny about how in recent years we usually lose in the tourny cause of a bad offensive game. . if we had just an average game offensviely against michigan in 2013 we would have won that game. nova played tough d this tourny but they were incredibly efficient on offense thats why they won it all. so what needs to change??

Better low post play, better driving to the basket, better kick outs to high percentage 3 point shooters. And probably an 8 person rotation so people are not so exhausted playing defense they are incapable of playing offense.

 

[Cusefan0307]

So we need to make wholesale changes after winning 17 tournament games the last 8 seasons?

 

[CorduroyG]

So we need to make wholesale changes after winning 17 tournament games the last 8 seasons?

if we wanna win the whole damn thing? yes