No real freshman contribution other than Ennis

[Cowtown]

Geez, some of you guys. What's with the hand-wringing? At 17-0 and ranked #2, everyone should understand by now (and as Forza so succinctly pointed out), this year is about this year. Just chill a bit and enjoy the ride, these don't come along all that often.

 

[SBU72]

It seems that every year (or every other year) somebody compains about the freshmen not getting enough playing and it seems to all work out. Grant played last year only because he had to. If Southerland had not been suspended, JG would not have gotten the time he got as witnessed on his much decreased play once JS came back. JB plays guys who are ready to play, no sooner. And they have to be ready on the defensive end. A reporter did ask JB why he didn't playRobertson during the UNC presser and JB basically told him to mind his own business. He said he was watching one of his kids play and asked the coach why he wasn't playing more and was told pretty much the same thing. (Can you imagine a coach tell JB that!)

 

[pfister1]

But even in MCW's case he did get to play with some regularity as a freshman - even though he was #4 behind a very good college three-guard rotation. He got in 26 games, and averaged over 10 mins in those games:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/183/year/2012/syracuse-orange

The key unknown question (and admittedly, I can't prove anything about it one way or another), is how many high-level recruits would a program lose out on if the perception was that the program didn't play freshmen? My gut says they would, because high-level recruits are accustomed to star treatment, and they want to play right away.

We won't get that perception among high level recruits, because we play our high level freshman recruits and we win doing what we are doing.....and those high level guys are getting drafted.

2013-14 Ennis starts, Roberson gets minutes and the book is not complete yet.
2012-13 Coleman starts until injury sidelines him; Grant starts 1/4 of our games; Cooney averages nearly 10 mpg
2011-12 Christmas starts and averages 10 mpg; MCW plays in 1/3 of our games and avgs. 10 mpg
2010-11 Melo starts 2/3 of our games - Keita starts the other 1/3; Keita, Fair, Waiters & Melo all play in more than 30 games and except for Melo all avarge more than 10+ mpg.

If anything, high level recruits are going to see that if you are as good as they all think they are, you will play. I guarantee you that everyone of those recruits coming in thinks that they are the kid that will force coach to play them, not the kid who may be at the short end of the bench his freshman year. If they didn't have that confidence they likely wouldn't be where they are as a top level recruit.

 

[pfister1]

At worst, if everyone bolts we would be looking at a rotation of:

Kaleb Joseph
LeTylerTrevNastyTerry Cooney
Tyler Roberson
Chris McCullough
Rakeem Christmas
Silent G
DC2

Thats still a ridiculously talented rotation. The optimist in me would say:

Kaleb Joseph - Taller Jonny Flynn
Trevor Cooney - Dude is gonna be sickkkkk next year
Tyler Roberson - Younger but more talented version of CJ Fair
Chris McCullough - More talented version of Grant
Rakeem Christmas - Starting to show major improvements now, as a senior I think we can expect him to be a solid contributor offensively.
Silent G - Very solid role player, should only get better
DC2 - Get healthy and become the McDonalds AA player he was recruited as

The talent is there but as we've seen with Kentucky, Kansas, Duke etc.. Talent only get you so far. Luckily for us, you simply do not play if you can't play defense and with next years team (if everyone goes pro) we have the talent and length or speed to be a top defensive squad. Also that backline will be like this years in terms of rebounding. We can win games shooting 35% with our defense and rebounding and while that's not optimal, we recruit players, coach them up and scheme to allow for that to be in our back pocket year in/year out.

There will be a lot of talent on the roster next year no matter who stays or goes. The biggest issue I see is if Ennis leaves we have to break in another inexperienced PG. Our last two seasons should show that this can be done with terrific results, however common sense also tells me that starting a freshman or very inexperienced PG is also a risky proposition. You can't hide the player that is at the position. He has the ball in his hands more than anyone else and has to have a decent handle on how to run the team and game. If the guy we are trying to break in were to stumble we might have to settle for something less than 30 wins and a top 10 ranking.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

Ok...so let's play this out...

How many do you play each game and how many minutes do they get?

It wouldn't be a set number every game. And there would certainly be games they didn't play at all (MCW played in 26/37 games as a frosh). It's perception as much as reality. Getting Buss and BJ some minutes in the double digit wins is a good idea, IMO. Surprise them with a few possessions of PT in the big games. Looks like Roberson is getting more PT, but I wonder what will happen to that when DC2 is back.

I'm not advocating going whacko with the idea, or that JB is way off in his approach. But on a scale of 0-10, where JB is a 2 or 3 on the the notion of playing freshmen, maybe go to a 3 or 4. IMO he has become much better at it, though it can be argued that it is because his freshmen are better.

Creating the perception that the freshmen will play is the key, both for the current freshmen and for the potential recruits. Keep developing the pipeline.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

It wouldn't be a set number every game. And there would certainly be games they didn't play at all (MCW played in 26/37 games as a frosh). It's perception as much as reality. Getting Buss and BJ some minutes in the double digit wins is a good idea, IMO. Surprise them with a few possessions of PT in the big games. Looks like Roberson is getting more PT, but I wonder what will happen to that when DC2 is back.

I'm not advocating going whacko with the idea, or that JB is way off in his approach. But on a scale of 0-10, where JB is a 2 or 3 on the the notion of playing freshmen, maybe go to a 3 or 4. IMO he has become much better at it, though it can be argued that it is because his freshmen are better.

Creating the perception that the freshmen will play is the key, both for the current freshmen and for the potential recruits. Keep developing the pipeline.

Ok...You have made three arguments:

1) It motivates them

2) It develops them for next year.

3) It tells them they will get playing time and be part of the program.

Do you really think that "a few possessions of PT in the big games" (meaning 2-3 minutes) is going to motivate them or make that much of a difference in an incoming recruit's "perception" of the program?

You, yourself, have stated that it is "perception as much as reality" meaning I think we can agree that 2-3 minutes is going to do squat for their development.

And are you willing to risk losing games (and this year, that could mean losing Buffalo and/or MSG) to get some freshmen 2-3 minutes of playing time in the hope that it creates the perception that Boeheim plays his freshmen?

BTW, the best argument for Boeheim playing his freshmen is everyone from Louie & Bouie to Pearl to DC to Billy to J-Dub to Carmelo and GMAC to Jonny Flynn to Tyler Ennis.

If you are a freshmen and deserve to play, you will play and play a lot.

You really think that Hopkins sitting down with a family and a recruit and saying, "Hey, if you come to 'Cuse, you are definitely going to get at least 2-3 minutes of playing time in a bunch of games." is going to seal the deal?

 

[br801]

BTW, the best argument for Boeheim playing his freshmen is everyone from Louie & Bouie to Pearl to DC to Billy to J-Dub to Carmelo and GMAC to Jonny Flynn to Tyler Ennis.

If you are a freshmen and deserve to play, you will play and play a lot.

That's it in a nutshell.

If JB views a freshman as his best choice for minutes at a position (i.e. the player who gives him the best chance to win games), he plays. If not, he waits his turn.

I have no doubt that had Fair left after last season, Roberson would be seeing major minutes and playing quite well. Likewise, had MCW returned, Ennis would be playing sparingly as his backup.

 

[jordoo]

I see what you are saying, but IMO the OP has a point. Playing freshmen at least a little on a regular basis does two very good things:

1) It motivates them and develops them so they they are more ready for the next year, and

2) It tells incoming freshmen that they are going to get to play and be part of the program right away.

Building a program is all about having a pipeline - it's a process. Not playing freshmen is like eating your seed corn - it will diminish your crop for next year.

That having been said, I would not want to be the reporter who accused JB of not playing freshmen. You'd have to approach the subject at the right time (like off-season) and in vague generalities. And he would still likely scald you.

Yes we are having such issues getting recruits these days
We have many many examples in this program over the years of guys playing very little and then getting the chance as Sophs or Juniors and doing very well. They are still learning in practice and getting better. In a perfect world we could get each of them a handful of good minutes a game but its not a perfect world and in the end winning and sending players to the NBA keeps the recruits coming in more than anything.

I guarantee 100% Roberson will be ready to start and play 30+ if need be next year. Buss will be ready to play 15-20 if need be and both BJ and Chinonso will at least be able to spell guys off the bench.

 

[Garbs]

Say Ennis is to leave for the draft, most likely, no freshman will have played many meaningful minutes. During our recent run of extreme success, freshmen have seen more minutes than this year. Last year Grant did(even TC and DC got some time) and he's turned into a star. 2011-2012, Xmas didn't play a ton, but still started every game on an absolutely loaded team, which the yr before Waiters, Melo, Fair and Keita played real minutes. 09-10 Triche. I mean it's not that important if you have a bunch of upper classmen coming back, but that doesn't look to be the case next year. Grant is as good as gone, so unless Ennis hangs around, it looks like we will be going with Joseph, Cooney, MGB, CM and I would guess Xmas. With a bench of DC2, TR, RP, Bj and Chino... Now I'm not saying that any freshman should be playing a ton, but maybe a few more minutes here and there could help. Without Tyler and Jerami, next year looks to be more difficult than recent years.

not going to read the thread so sorry if this has been covered but:

This year we had Fair and Keita as seniors with a lot of experience, RaXmas as a junior with good experience, and Grant/Coleman/Cooney with limited experience as sophomores.

Next year we have RaXmas an experienced senior, Coleman/Cooney/Gbinje as juniors with experience, and Roberson as a sophomore with limited experience.

Seems to me we will have a similar amount of experience next year.

 

[jordoo]

But even in MCW's case he did get to play with some regularity as a freshman - even though he was #4 behind a very good college three-guard rotation. He got in 26 games, and averaged over 10 mins in those games:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/183/year/2012/syracuse-orange

The key unknown question (and admittedly, I can't prove anything about it one way or another), is how many high-level recruits would a program lose out on if the perception was that the program didn't play freshmen? My gut says they would, because high-level recruits are accustomed to star treatment, and they want to play right away.

Yet strangely our recruiting is ticking up and up and up lately and our on court success has been great even with highly touted freshman not getting the amount of playing time you would like to see. Its one thing to have a theory but yours is completely disproved as of late in actual reality when it comes to SU bball.

 

[senorpalmer]

That's it in a nutshell.

If JB views a freshman as his best choice for minutes at a position (i.e. the player who gives him the best chance to win games), he plays. If not, he waits his turn.

I have no doubt that had Fair left after last season, Roberson would be seeing major minutes and playing quite well. Likewise, had MCW returned, Ennis would be playing sparingly as his backup.

Yep. I would have described it as whether the freshman is needed for a role but you may have stated it better. Also fully agree that Ennis/Robersons role would be drastically different had the early entry scenarios played out differently.

 

[jordoo]

I'm sure that JB would love to get the frosh more playing time that would benefit the team in the future but not at the expense of potentially losing a game in the present. I'm convinced that JB is not concerned about the past or the future, only the next game, as he should be imo.

During the games I agree and it should be that way. But he certainly is planning and recruiting for the future when we aren't on the court trying to win games. You always have to start by winning the game in front of you first.

 

[jordoo]

It wouldn't be a set number every game. And there would certainly be games they didn't play at all (MCW played in 26/37 games as a frosh). It's perception as much as reality. Getting Buss and BJ some minutes in the double digit wins is a good idea, IMO. Surprise them with a few possessions of PT in the big games. Looks like Roberson is getting more PT, but I wonder what will happen to that when DC2 is back.

I'm not advocating going whacko with the idea, or that JB is way off in his approach. But on a scale of 0-10, where JB is a 2 or 3 on the the notion of playing freshmen, maybe go to a 3 or 4. IMO he has become much better at it, though it can be argued that it is because his freshmen are better.

Creating the perception that the freshmen will play is the key, both for the current freshmen and for the potential recruits. Keep developing the pipeline.

JB will play the guys that give him the best chance to win. That's is what coaches should be doing. He will also play his top8 guys the most minutes even in blow outs because they are going to play the important games together so no matter what the score it helps them learn to play together better.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

To the OP, I don't think this year is all that much different than any other. If you are excluding Ennis this year then in each of the comparison years you should take away at least one of the frosh. Secondly, you count Trevor as playing as a frosh for last year but are not counting MG this year. I also think Roberson may have gotten more time if he hadn't started out behind.

It is a testament to SU's increased status, the rise in recruiting, that we are now able to get more top recruits who are willing to wait a year before playing. Getting MCW, Grant, and Roberson on a year development before big minutes is elevating SU from a routinely good program (when these type played as frosh) to a golden era candidate.

As for hurting recruiting I think all the NBA picks coming out of here is more than offsetting that disadvantage.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

not going to read the thread so sorry if this has been covered but:

This year we had Fair and Keita as seniors with a lot of experience, RaXmas as a junior with good experience, and Grant/Coleman/Cooney with limited experience as sophomores.

Next year we have RaXmas an experienced senior, Coleman/Cooney/Gbinje as juniors with experience, and Roberson as a sophomore with limited experience.

Seems to me we will have a similar amount of experience next year.

Boeheim actually talked about this somewhere (maybe a press conference?) where he said that they try to have a mix of good four-year players and younger guys...

He is the antithesis of Calipari in this regard.

 

[Oakland]

I have a different reason why I'd like to see some frosh get real playing time in games: prepare them in case they are needed this season. An example is D Riley in 09-10. He got little real playing time during the BEC play, including a 19 pt blowout of St Johns near the end of the BEC season. AO hurts his knee and Riley is not ready to help.

This season, JB is giving time to Roberson which seems good to me. But the real lack of depth is at guard, so I would support giving Patterson more PT when it is unlikely we would lose the game.

Ok...You have made three arguments:

1) It motivates them

2) It develops them for next year.

3) It tells them they will get playing time and be part of the program.

 

[jordoo]

I have a different reason why I'd like to see some frosh get real playing time in games: prepare them in case they are needed this season. An example is D Riley in 09-10. He got little real playing time during the BEC play, including a 19 pt blowout of St Johns near the end of the BEC season. AO hurts his knee and Riley is not ready to help.

This season, JB is giving time to Roberson which seems good to me. But the real lack of depth is at guard, so I would support giving Patterson more PT when it is unlikely we would lose the game.

Riley still wouldn't be ready today. We played against him the last two years and he never would have been ready. That is a poor example. Losing a major player that late in the season is a killer but the truth that year is we only had two big guys in Rick and AO that were ever going to be good enough. Still if Kris and Rick play better that team could have made the NC game without AO.

 

[Oakland]

Well that sounds reasonable except for the fact that JB played Rily much more in the NCAA games, clearly indicating that he hoped to get something out of him. It is irrelevant that Riley was a limited player. Even a limited player would have a better chance to contribute if he wasn't thrown in 'cold turkey'.

Riley still wouldn't be ready today. We played against him the last two years and he never would have been ready. That is a poor example. Losing a major player that late in the season is a killer but the truth that year is we only had two big guys in Rick and AO that were ever going to be good enough. Still if Kris and Rick play better that team could have made the NC game without AO.

 

[jordoo]

Its kind of hard to respond to ^^^^^^^^^^^^ this. :noidea:

 

[senorpalmer]

Well that sounds reasonable except for the fact that JB played Rily much more in the NCAA games, clearly indicating that he hoped to get something out of him. It is irrelevant that Riley was a limited player. Even a limited player would have a better chance to contribute if he wasn't thrown in 'cold turkey'.

Riley played out of necessity in the 2010 tournament. It was that or run Rick Jackson at center for 40 mins.

 

[Oakland]

He played out of necessity - exactly my point.

Riley played out of necessity in the 2010 tournament. It was that or run Rick Jackson at center for 40 mins.

 

[jordoo]

Well that sounds reasonable except for the fact that JB played Rily much more in the NCAA games, clearly indicating that he hoped to get something out of him. It is irrelevant that Riley was a limited player. Even a limited player would have a better chance to contribute if he wasn't thrown in 'cold turkey'.

Did you watch him play against us the last two year? He was a recruiting miss, he could have played 12 min every game that season and been minimally better but that's about it.

 

[Rocco]

I'd rather have a championship this year with whoever it takes to win, then worry about what depth is gonna look like next year as soon as our season is over.

For now, this team is deep and it's great that these young kids aren't thrown into action.

 

[billsin01]

1) It motivates them and develops them so they they are more ready for the next year, and

2) It tells incoming freshmen that they are going to get to play and be part of the program right away.

Building a program is all about having a pipeline - it's a process. Not playing freshmen is like eating your seed corn - it will diminish your crop for next year.

I'm not sure I agree with either of these outside of the motivation/allure of early PT for recruits. But I have yet to see anywhere that simply playing has some correlation to a player's rate of development. There's a subtle difference between saying 'there's no substitute for game experience' and saying 'minutes/PT directly influence a player's rate of improvement.' Improvement has a lot more to do with how serious a player is about putting in the time/effort outside of practice/games. It's no surprise that Cooney has exploded this year when you hear how hard the kid works. I'm not trying to knock DC2 and Xmas here, but you never really hear that about them and, despite getting minutes as very young players, they are still miles and miles away from basically any projection of their ceilings.

I'm sure JB would love to get minutes for the frosh but I don't think he's going to come back next season and chalk it up as a rebuilding year due to the fact that BJ Johnson didn't log an extra 45 minutes of game time this year.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Roberon is getting worked in. I think, if needed, Patterson could give productive minutes. I think the same can be said for BJ too, he's just a little further down the line.

All three will be viable members of the rotation next season depending on who we bring back.