Northwestern votes today for unionization | Syracusefan.com

Northwestern votes today for unionization

texascpa

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,668
Like
18,888
So, Northwestern athletes, or is it employees now, are voting for unionization today. The votes apparently will not be counted until the NLRB has a chance to review the recent ruling by regional labor board. It's expected that the NLRB will confirm the regional board's decision on the employee classification.

While it can be argued to death whether these players are employees, underpaid, under-represented, etc. the fact is that the federal government has now made a decision that private university athletes are, in fact, employees of said university and deserve all of the rights and protections of non-athlete employees. It also, of course, opens up the unionization and possible collective bargaining position if the athletes do unionize. Separate from that vote, however, is the fact that they are employees now and forever, unless overturned by federal proclamation or court.

That said, there are few things that will surely come about from all of this. Before touching on those points, I want it made clear that I will never refer to college-aged athletes as "kids" as we continuously see printed and even many on this board consider. They are adults, plain and simple. The biggest difference between "kids" and "adults" is the binding rules around contracts. These adults are making adult decisions through contractual negotiations, and, eventually, enforceable contracts. It's time to start treating them as such.

Now, as far as the immediate and future ramifications of these decisions being made, I hope these adults full understood:

1) Taxation of earnings - I fully expect that the IRS will now require the athletes to report all "earnings", which includes value of the tuition, books, room/board, and could include the value of any medical benefits, depending on the benefits reaching certain value ceilings. Are the athletes ready to incur 25%+ tax bills? The institutions could "gross up" the values to mitigate the financial impact to the employees, but I suspect this will not happen, at least without union contract negotiation. The institute is not required to "gross up" the values other than for calculation Employer FICA taxes.

2) Union Dues - I fully expect that part of any collective bargaining negotiations that the union will want union dues collected from their constituents. I see no way around this. Unions need funding to run their operations and represent their members. Are the athletes ready to pony up this monthly requirement?

3) Medical Coverage - From the athletes and union reps, the key benefit they are looking for is medical coverage AFTER their college career. Athletes already receive medical coverage as part of their university plans, but it's after college that they may need continuing coverage for injuries suffered from their sport. Anyone who's been involved in Retiree Medical (FAS106) plans can attest is that plan liabilities for such coverage can easily run into the 10's of millions of dollars on an annual basis. And medical coverage is not always premium-free for the members. Many plans now require union members to pay into their coverage. Are the athletes ready and willing to pay their "fair share".

4) Strikes - Any benefits that they perceive are owed to them will need to be negotiated. Are the athletes ready to strike and possibly be replaced by scabs, or worst yet, have games and seasons cancelled because of their failed negotiations? For some, this could impact their draft status if they are not able to show themselves on the field. For most, this could warrant cessation of their tuition coverage.

5) Wages - I don't care what the union is saying or the athletes are saying, I predict within 4 years that wages will be negotiated in some form. Again, this will impact athletes' tax basis and other areas.

Now, don't take what I wrote as an argument against treating college athletes as employees, but these are the major considerations that the voters have to consider, and I hope someone has briefed them on these issues. I fully expect Northwestern athletes to vote for unionization, and then the NLRB to certify the regional office decision and then the Union. From there, it will get very interesting.
 
OK. So just so we're all clear. Students at private universities are now considered employees of that university. Yes. That sounds absolutely logical ... And by logical I mean ridiculously STUPID.

But I'm sure you'll say, "No, no. It's student-ATHLETES." Well, what about non-athletes on scholarship? What about ANY student that receives ANY benefit from the school? They're all employees. Give me a freakin' break. Is anyone else about to regurgitate their lunch?
 
OK. So just so we're all clear. Students at private universities are now considered employees of that university. Yes. That sounds absolutely logical ... And by logical I mean ridiculously STUPID.

But I'm sure you'll say, "No, no. It's student-ATHLETES." Well, what about non-athletes on scholarship? What about ANY student that receives ANY benefit from the school? They're all employees. Give me a freakin' break. Is anyone else about to regurgitate their lunch?

You make a valid argument. There are many science, math, arts majors that spend inordinate amounts of time under the direction of the school doing things that go beyond their studies. Arts majors probably put in 40-80 hours per week practicing. Obviously I'm throwing numbers out my rear, but suspect they spend quit a bit of time on weeknights and weekends honing their craft for no further consideration than their scholarship.
 
Last edited:
I'm sure the tennis/diving/field hockey teams will love this as the school would have to pay them the same as the football players. Either that or schools will end up getting rid of every sport not named football or basketball that they can while still keeping compliance with Title 9.

IF I was a scholarship athlete for a "non revenue" sport i would be concerned.
 
You make a valid argument. There are many science, math, arts majors that spend inordinate amounts of time under the direction of the school doing things that go beyond their studies. Arts majors probably put in 40-80 hours per week practicing. Obviously I'm throwing numbers out my rear, but suspect they spend quit a bit of time on weeknights and weekends honing their craft for no further consideration than their scholarship.

And I'm sure that along with those long hours they put in they'll be happy to note that they also get to pay tax on their scholarship.
 
Hey. I guess if Syracuse and other private universities are compelled to pay players, then we'll be able to really compete with the SEC and public institutions for football and basketball recruits. Although Syracuse won't be featuring any other sport, except maybe lacrosse.
 
Orijinal said:
OK. So just so we're all clear. Students at private universities are now considered employees of that university. Yes. That sounds absolutely logical ... And by logical I mean ridiculously STUPID.

But I'm sure you'll say, "No, no. It's student-ATHLETES." Well, what about non-athletes on scholarship? What about ANY student that receives ANY benefit from the school? They're all employees. Give me a freakin' break. Is anyone else about to regurgitate their lunch?

Other than not wanting them to be considered employees have you ever actually read a statutory definition of an "employee" at either a state or federal level? I don't see how anyone without an agenda could read the definition used by the NLRB and actually argue that they aren't employees.
 
Without getting into the actual politics of NLRB I would bet my entire 401(k) the national NLRB will affirm the Chicago regional decision. President Obama has appointed several new members to the NLRB during his presidency and thanks to Sen. Reid changing the Senate rules for non-Supreme Court appointments the President will fill all of the spots on the national NLRB committee before his presidency is done.

They will affirm this ruling. This union vote will be interesting because their was a case recently in Tennessee in a Volkswagen plant where the workers decided not to unionize. I think this vote could have a chilling effect on other private universities. However, if they do allow them to be employees then the school could fire the athletes if the collectively bargained an agreement with the university. All non-revenue sports would be eliminated if they were employees as schools won't have employees who are losing tons of money for the university. I think it could be an advantage to private schools if they could pay their athletes more than public school students, but if the privates allow it I would expect the public schools would eventually follow suit.
 
I know students who have to even pay universities for the class credits they have earned as unpaid interns. What about student teachers? They pay for the right to work at schools and they don't get paid by the school nor the college. Student nurses pay colleges while they do their clinicals in hospitals. I imagine there are many more examples.
 
I hope they are on strike the next time we play them.

Rulebook says that's an auto 49-0 win in the books right?
 
You make a valid argument. There are many science, math, arts majors that spend inordinate amounts of time under the direction of the school doing things that go beyond their studies. Arts majors probably put in 40-80 hours per week practicing. Obviously I'm throwing numbers out my rear, but suspect they spend quit a bit of time on weeknights and weekends honing their craft for no further consideration than their scholarship.

Tell you what, next time the math, music or art student gets the University a $30+M per year media deal, they can sit at the employee table too.
You know what an activity that doesn't make any money for the school is called?

A hobby.
 
Tell you what, next time the math, music or art student gets the University a $30+M per year media deal, they can sit at the employee table too.
You know what an activity that doesn't make any money for the school is called?

A hobby.

If the art students were a single entity and continuously lost money, then yes maybe it's a hobby. But, they are part of a larger entity and could be looked upon as a segment or business unit. Many, many companies have cost centers, segments, subsidiaries that either bring in no revenue or consistently lose money, but they aren't considered hobbies. Hell, it was just published this week that several of Yahoo's divisions lose money, but Yahoo isn't going to get rid of them.
 
IF they unionize and are considered employees, why would Title IX even be considered relevant. You would think that being Employees of a business, that would give the university the power to remove any underperforming of money losing "divisions".

Also, I know that there are rules in employment but I don't think there is a law/rule that states you have to have as may male employees as female that I am aware of.
 
Isn't Northwestern appealing the original decision? Who knows when the court even hears the appeal. Could be years. I'm guessing this vote won't go public until that is decided?
 
Isn't Northwestern appealing the original decision? Who knows when the court even hears the appeal. Could be years. I'm guessing this vote won't go public until that is decided?
The National NLRB won't overrule the Chicago chapter of the NLRB. The National NLRB has had several newer appointments from President Obama. Labor is a supporter of President Obama. Thus, I bet the appointments President Obama would tend to be pro-union and I can't see them overturning the Chicago decision.
 
IF they unionize and are considered employees, why would Title IX even be considered relevant. You would think that being Employees of a business, that would give the university the power to remove any underperforming of money losing "divisions".

Also, I know that there are rules in employment but I don't think there is a law/rule that states you have to have as may male employees as female that I am aware of.


We re talking about government entities and their definitions and rulings. Logic and common sense have NO place in this discussion. When the IRS is involved, taxes will be paid. When Title IX is involved, they will ensure the female athletes get the same right to pay those IRS taxes.
 
The National NLRB won't overrule the Chicago chapter of the NLRB. The National NLRB has had several newer appointments from President Obama. Labor is a supporter of President Obama. Thus, I bet the appointments President Obama would tend to be pro-union and I can't see them overturning the Chicago decision.
So Chicago "National' taking care of Chicago 'local'? ;)
 
So Chicago "National' taking care of Chicago 'local'? ;)
Yeah, I wasn't saying I agree or disagree with it. Its just pro-Union people tend to be Democrats and this President is a Democrat so expecting the new members of the national NLRB to be pro-Union shouldn't be a shocker. Once Colter/Huma won in the regional NLRB hearing I knew it would come down to the Northwestern players to decide if they wanted a union. I am not pro/anti union, but I don't think a union would be a good idea for collegiate athletics as only Football and Basketball programs generate revenue on a profit and I don't all the other sports programs to become jeopardized.
 
I am a pro union guy, but I am not for this union. This is just greed by a handful of players , but I hope all this leads to is that players are guaranteed 4 year scholarships instead of yearly deals.
 
Another thing I have been wondering about is "working conditions" arguments. Say that some of the players don't want to practice N hours per week, don't want to have to spend X hours per week in "voluntary" offseason workouts, etc. So those guys don't develop as well as players at state-run schools, where such participation and "working conditions" can still be mandated, albeit informally. Thus the private schools could be at a competitive disadvantage.

And say a player who doesn't want to have to spend as much practice time as others doesn't play. Does he have a cause of action to sue the employer for "retaliation"? He could argue that he was benched for pushing back against employer mandates, rather than due to his lower performance for not abiding by those mandates. And it's damaging his potential for professional earnings after graduation.

What a big stupid mess this is.
 
Another thing I have been wondering about is "working conditions" arguments. Say that some of the players don't want to practice N hours per week, don't want to have to spend X hours per week in "voluntary" offseason workouts, etc. So those guys don't develop as well as players at state-run schools, where such participation and "working conditions" can still be mandated, albeit informally. Thus the private schools could be at a competitive disadvantage.

And say a player who doesn't want to have to spend as much practice time as others doesn't play. Does he have a cause of action to sue the employer for "retaliation"? He could argue that he was benched for pushing back against employer mandates, rather than due to his lower performance for not abiding by those mandates. And it's damaging his potential for professional earnings after graduation.

What a big stupid mess this is.

Add to that a school's right to sue said player over breach of contract for failing to uphold the standards and necessary effort to maintain the level of play and the player's new right to mediation and arbitration before a court action. Essentially, the kid could not be terminated once he signs on the line and the school could then be forced to carry the lazy player for four years while paying and educating him and get nothing in return. Gotta love it. Even if the school can sue for breach and rescind the offer, it is likely that the issue would be oin courts much longer than it takes to graduate, thereby making the school's suit moot.
 
That still doesn't take away the fact that they are now considered employees and will probably be taxed for the value of their scholarships.

Actually, they will not be considered employees unless they vote to unionize.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
170,341
Messages
4,885,722
Members
5,992
Latest member
meierscreek

Online statistics

Members online
198
Guests online
1,029
Total visitors
1,227


...
Top Bottom