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On paper, the best team I've seen at Cuse in a long time
- Thread starter DirtDog44
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Brooky03
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This horse that we're beating has been dead for a while, but it's a good workout so here I go.
PG - I think Gillon and Howard are going to split minutes 50/50 depending on the personnel on the court. When Lydon's playing PF, Howard will be on the court because we'll likely have 3 shooters for him to facilitate for. When Lydon's either not on the court or playing SF, Gillon will be in to pick up the scoring slack. EDIT: This means Gillon starts
SG - Battle starts and gets the bulk of SG minutes. White will get the second most minutes at SG, though it'll be low, and Gillon/Howard could see a little time here in specialty lineups.
SF - I want Lydon to start, but I'm thinking more and more that White will get the start. Lydon seems like the type of kid who's willing to give up the prestige of a starting role with the knowledge that he's still going to see 30+mpg.
PF - Roberson starts. He's a productive Senior who will be a leader on the team. He's earned it and Boeheim rewards his Seniors. I don't think we want to mess with Roberson's confidence at all. Lydon is obviously going to see good minutes at PF, probably in the 10-12mpg range. TT will play a little in the nonconference schedule but mostly sit on the bench in ACC play.
C - I don't think this one is up for much debate. Coleman starts. Chukwu comes off the bench. Both see 20-ish mpg.
PG - I think Gillon and Howard are going to split minutes 50/50 depending on the personnel on the court. When Lydon's playing PF, Howard will be on the court because we'll likely have 3 shooters for him to facilitate for. When Lydon's either not on the court or playing SF, Gillon will be in to pick up the scoring slack. EDIT: This means Gillon starts
SG - Battle starts and gets the bulk of SG minutes. White will get the second most minutes at SG, though it'll be low, and Gillon/Howard could see a little time here in specialty lineups.
SF - I want Lydon to start, but I'm thinking more and more that White will get the start. Lydon seems like the type of kid who's willing to give up the prestige of a starting role with the knowledge that he's still going to see 30+mpg.
PF - Roberson starts. He's a productive Senior who will be a leader on the team. He's earned it and Boeheim rewards his Seniors. I don't think we want to mess with Roberson's confidence at all. Lydon is obviously going to see good minutes at PF, probably in the 10-12mpg range. TT will play a little in the nonconference schedule but mostly sit on the bench in ACC play.
C - I don't think this one is up for much debate. Coleman starts. Chukwu comes off the bench. Both see 20-ish mpg.
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Brooky03
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Lydon is more out of position at the 5 than he is at the 3. Significantly so, imo.
Knicks411
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Maybe, he's definitely a tad undersized (at least) at the 5.
Defensively, the 3 and 4 for us are very similar. I'm thinking about this from the offensive end. if Lydon is at the 3, then I am presuming Roberson and either Chukwu and DC are both on the court, which I think significantly hurts the offensive spacing.
reedny
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We can argue all day about "starting" versus "bench", etc. But to me, this is the lineup that we will see most of the time.
Per General's thread yesterday, another (dream) lineup could be: Battle PG; White SG; Lydon SF; TR PF; and Chukwu C. But it remains to be seen if TB can play point, White can check ACC guards at the 2 and TL can defend smaller/quicker ACC SF's. No doubt the staff wants to determine this as well.
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Cusefan0307
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I know some are concerned about Lydon not being a true 3, but I look at it this way. If teams are going to put a 6'6/7 small forward on him, he's either going to shoot over them with his very high release, or as he showed late in the year he can go to the high post with his back to the basket and score that way.
The biggest problem with him at the 3, is you have 2 unskilled offensive players in the game at time at the 4 and 5.
The biggest problem with him at the 3, is you have 2 unskilled offensive players in the game at time at the 4 and 5.
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Brooky03
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I think Gillon could help with that. Lydon SF = Gillon PG. Counting Battle as a shooter, that's 3 shooters on the court. Lydon PF = Howard PG. Battle, White, Lydon gives you 3 shooters again.
Knicks411
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Yeah I just think like 3 shooters is kind of like the bare minimum you should be running with at this point.
There will be times you want to go big, like against UNC or someone like that. But unless Roberson makes a huge leap forward I think he might be like an 18-20 min player this year
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Brooky03
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I don't think Roberson will dip that low, but you're probably right that he won't be near 30 like he was last season. Low-mid 20's is what I'd project.
As much as teams are becoming shooter biased, there still aren't a lot of teams who can put stretch 4's on the court. If anything, they'll play two SF's with one of them typically undersized. With our zone, defending them with a true PF like Roberson isn't much of a problem. On the other end, Roberson could bully his way to high percentage looks because of the likely size advantage and experience working in the post vs. a player likely not comfortable operating down low.
Dave85
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I'm agreeing with you twice in one day. Damn it.
Just my two cents on lineup:
Starters: Gillion, Battle, White, Roberson, Coleman
Bench: Lydon, Howard, Chukwu
Limited minutes: TT and MM
OttoMets
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If Boeheim turns this into an ACC contender and Final Four team, that might be the best coaching job of his career.
They've got a number of individual talents, but shaping the group into a great team won't be any easy task. It's difficult to win with a group of people who haven't played together before.
But if Boeheim's open to tinkering with different lineups, our November schedule could make for some of the most exciting meaningless games in memory for people who enjoy this kind of thing. I'm really looking forward to it.
two3zone
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This team does have a ton of talent, but it also does have question marks.
The 2012 team was one of the best teams I've ever seen, 2010 ditto. I don't think this team is on that level at all, while I think we can do very well and hell, even win it all, I don't think they compare to those other two squads that we've had in recent memory.
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Brooky03
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The 2010 team is my favorite all-time team and I think this teams compares well.
- PG goes to the 2010 team. Rautins had a phenomenal year as the Senior leader. Gillon can shoot arguably just as well, but he won't be the same leader or defender as Rautins was. Sophomore Scoop also gets the nod over Howard. Scoop was the better shooter and did about as well in other areas of the game as I expect Howard will this season.
- SG goes to this team. Freshman Battle > Freshman Triche. Triche was the model of consistency and played and shot very very well for a Freshman, but I would be seriously disappointed if Battle wasn't better in just about every category.
- SF is close because Wes was just so darn good, but all of Wes' strengths and weaknesses are embodied in White, imo. Defense will be the determining factor. Lydon beats Sophomore Joseph, obviously.
- Jackson was great down low but struggled at times to get out on shooters from the PF spot. His versatility was nice, being able to play C too, but I think Roberson can be nearly as good on offense while helping more on defense. Again, Lydon at PF beats Joseph at PF.
- Onuaku's the man! Coleman won't produce down low like Onuaku did. Butttt, this season's team has two full-time Centers and a theoretical 3rd (Lydon) with experience playing the position well, if needed in a pinch. 2010's downfall, as we all know, was that Riley couldn't play Center at this level. When Onuaku went down, Jackson had to play full-time Center, which he was good at, but we had nothing behind him. This season's team doesn't have the same problem if Coleman goes down. Not thinking of injuries, Jackson > Chukwu. Chukwu will be the better rim protector, but Jackson was no slouch on defense and way better offensively.
So, the main difference is experience at the PG position. Can Howard and Gillon get the job done from a production and leadership standpoint like Rautins and Scoop did? Will they have to?
Cusefan0307
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College wise you may be right, but I don't think there's any doubt that this team has more professional talent.
two3zone
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I'm not sure.
MCW
Dion
Rak
Joseph
Southerland
Melo
All played in the NBA, albeit for only a handful of games for some of them.
On the current roster I think only Battle and Lydon are surefire guys to wear an NBA uniform.
This is all true but it is worth mentioning that Rak, JSuth, and MCW all had either limited mins andor or limited effectiveness for the 2012 team. We may have 8 guys who play more this year than those 3 did in 2012. At the end of the season, the 2010 and 12 teams were missing their respective , star starting centers and then we saw that those teams were not nearly as dominant as we had hoped once we lost AO and Fab, and in fact some major flaws came out. I am hoping this team stays injury free or if there is an injury to a key starter, this team can replace that guy more effectively than those two earlier teams did. Who knows but in the end this team could have an easier path to the FF than the 2010/12 teams. Should be fun to watch
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And also worth noting, very few people thought Mal last year was a surefire nba guy, didnt hear JB say it, but he still went in the first round. Thats what i love to watch with these recent SU teams- who (like Mal, MCW, Dion, Ennis, Grant, Wes, Flynn, etc) surprises to the upside and moves up the nba mock drafts this season...?
two3zone
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The difference is Mal, MCW, Dion, Ennis were all very highly rated recruits coming in. I do understand your point though.
Thats whats so hard to handicap with this team- how do you compare veterans Gillon, White and Paschal as prospects compared to the 4 freshmen you mention above when they arrived?? Its like comparing apples to Oranges. White wasnt too far behind those 4 when he was a freshman in terms of being highly rated. But that was ages ago. Who knows maybe White and Paschal can get a look at nba before all is said and done. I would think as prospects they are fairly comparable now to KJoseph and Fab back in the day
Capt. Tuttle
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He's the PG
Capt. Tuttle
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NOTHING in PC's past gives any basis that he will be close to a healthy DC
Capt. Tuttle
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No FF starter is sitting.
reedny
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Totally disagree. I think this year's squad IS comparable (even to the 2010 team that went 30-5). It might not be quite as productive offensively, but it could well be better (and is certainly bigger) defensively. I'm obviously talking "on paper", since we need to see how well the new team plays together to compare records.
For reference, the 2010 team had: Triche and Rautins up top, with a front line of Johnson, Onuaku and Jackson. Not huge, but very balanced. WJ was uber-athletic, and no doubt the team was excellent offensively at almost 81 ppg. Rautins was the shooter and Triche was a good defender. Scoop came off the bench and scored some, and they had bench shooting with Joseph. So good guard/SF scoring and depth, and of course Onuaku was a solid (10-11 ppg) low-block scorer and Ricky could rebound. Unfortunately, that was the year that Onuaku was hurt in the Georgietown game and Jackson had to move over to center (we lost to Butler).
This year's squad COULD be as talented offensively. They're certainly comparable on paper ... with a 1-3 lineup of Gillon/Battle and White. I loved AR, but the 2010 team didn't have a guard as athletically gifted as Battle. White can't defend like WJ, but he'll be as good a shooter. And the 2010 teams' inside guys (AO, RJ and Riley), while maybe craftier low-block scorers, don't have the versatility, size or defensive potential of this year's team: with Lydon, Roberson, DC2, TT and CHUKWU. I mean ... wowser.
By Edit: The 2012 team is closer on paper: Triche and Scoop up top, with a front line of Joseph, X-Mas and Fab. Amazing guard depth with Dion and MCW, and impressive forward depth with Fair and Southerland. Even at Center, we had a 6'11 guy (BMK) to sub for our 7 footer.
IMO, the 2017 team has equal or better starting talent but not elite guard depth like 2012. On the front line, however, the depth is definitely comparable with Lydon/Roberson, DC2/Chukwu and 6'10" TT. Amazing.
We'll see how things shake out.
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Doc5120
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You're probably right. I can definitely see Roberson starting. I just don't know where the pieces will fall. If Lydon isn't starting, I'll be floored.