One of the worst officiated games I can remember

[Cowtown]

Well you can always call it hot dog fillers or Mcdonalds

I think you don't get the point. The game was a dog, and not James Naismith, John Wooden nor Mendy Rudolph could have made it better. Period.

 

[cuseattle]

I think you don't get the point. The game was a dog, and not James Naismith, John Wooden nor Mendy Rudolph could have made it better. Period.

Sometimes, I have to google your references...

 

[CusefanATL]

Just plain incompetence. Im not claiming some agenda against SU or coach or whatever. This was the blue meth of pure incompetence. These guys were just making up crap as they went along.

One of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in years was the foul called on Malachi along the corner in the second half when he was whistled for having an illegal pick set on him. The guy that called it was about 75 feet away while the closer ref called nothing.

Another blue ribbon contender was the lack of a call on the cross body block on Mal the last play of the game where Smith almost tied it. They call you for breathing and then they let THAT go?

Not to mention the What foul called on Mike G that gave Tech two FT to try and tie.

not to mention the Tech travel right in front of cuse bench which directly lead to 2 tech points and then the bogus travel on roberson.

 

[Timonen]

To the madding crowd: stop bitching and get out and ref games yourself. Join your local association, and write your exam - you won't get 50% on your first try, I guarantee that. Then learn your mechanics and positioning. And no, don't be expecting to do 3-man with the old fat slow guys right off the hop. Learn how to run and work hard doing two-man before you step up to the that level. Because you have no idea how fast happens at that level. Not a freaking iota. But I also guarantee you you'll love the challenge, because there's nothing more difficult you'll ever do in sport. That's why I do it. And if you can handle it, you'll really like doing something the rest of the basketball universe can't.

If you're at the top of your profession and have millions of fans (and millions of dollars) relying on your competency, you're fair game for criticism. Nobody is critiquing local volunteer refs or questioning that the job is difficult. Every job is difficult at the highest level which is why the margin of error is so small.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

not to mention the Tech travel right in front of cuse bench which directly lead to 2 tech points and then the bogus travel on roberson.

Both were travels. I was looking directly at his feet. Totally shuffled the pivot foot.

 

[pfister1]

If you're at the top of your profession and have millions of fans (and millions of dollars) relying on your competency, you're fair game for criticism. Nobody is critiquing local volunteer refs or questioning that the job is difficult. Every job is difficult at the highest level which is why the margin of error is so small.

Funny thing is though....they aren't paid as though there are millions of fans and millions of dollars relying on their competency.

Now I'm not going to go as far as to say they don't make good money because they can make good money, but its not commensurate with top money for most professions and certainly not in the sports professions.

Cowtown can correct me if I'm wrong, but if what I read is correct I think they make a couple grand per game and then have to pay their own expenses (including travel to the game) out of that money. The guys that work the absolute most and only work power conference games might be grossing 350-400K. And I guess that is really good money for an intense period on the road for 5 months.

But how many of those top guys are there out there at that level and then compare that with the number of games that require 3 officials every Saturday? There are a lot of guys doing it as more of a part time gig and I can assure you the best guys aren't getting assigned to the GA Tech v. SU game...I would think they'd be doing the marquee games like UK v. KU, Iowa St. v OU, UVa v. Lville etc.. At least SU is a power 5 team and a marquee program within the power 5. I can only imagine the quality of refereeing that a game like Holy Cross v. Navy sees if they get assigned on a pecking order kind of basis.

With all the money the NCAA makes, maybe it should sink some of its cash into bolstering the system and grooming more guys beyond the ones at the absolute top.

 

[kuethstheman]

Well played, Paul. I'll get yer ass for that

I appreciate your point, and yes the ref missed it. When the play occurred live, I thought DC actually hit him in the face with the ball. The replay showed what actually happened. But consider the ref was caught out of position on the turnover (which happens to everyone, and believe me nothing will you up more than a stupid turnover), and I think he got straight-lined on the actual foul. When you ref, "you don't get no replay." And I'm here to tell ya, the hand is quicker than the eye. Don't ever doubt that.

We're neither perfect nor infallible. What we can be is consistent, and believe me we try. But no ref, nor a team of three of 'em, can make a mutt into an afghan hound. That was a freaking dog of a game, and I mean a GD yellow cur. Both teams played like , and no one could change that. Except the players.

I appreciate that it must be very difficult. Still, as with all things, there are better and worse. This game was officiated horribly. A notably bad one amongst many bad ones this year.

All the calls mentioned in this thread are good examples and of course, all of them went against us. Still, if I'm a GT fan, I would feel like I got jobbed by the refs. Plenty of awfulness to go around.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

To the madding crowd: stop bitching and get out and ref games yourself. Join your local association, and write your exam - you won't get 50% on your first try, I guarantee that. Then learn your mechanics and positioning. And no, don't be expecting to do 3-man with the old fat slow guys right off the hop. Learn how to run and work hard doing two-man before you step up to the that level. Because you have no idea how fast happens at that level. Not a freaking iota. But I also guarantee you you'll love the challenge, because there's nothing more difficult you'll ever do in sport. That's why I do it. And if you can handle it, you'll really like doing something the rest of the basketball universe can't.

I'm sure you have reason to say this, and some points are valid. But how do you explain the vast quality difference between pro and college level refs, or that the refs in college seem just to get worse and not merely in games Syracuse plays in. Also why are refs almost never disciplined by the NCAA? I recall one recent suspension and if I'm correct it's also the first I can remember.

 

[Consigliere]

My favorite was the 20 minute intermission as they kept reviewing the most obvious play ever as G lays hurt on the other side of the court on a no call.

Was hoping "they left the mic on" for that one. Like the Geico commercial.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Well played, Paul. I'll get yer ass for that

I appreciate your point, and yes the ref missed it. When the play occurred live, I thought DC actually hit him in the face with the ball. The replay showed what actually happened. But consider the ref was caught out of position on the turnover (which happens to everyone, and believe me nothing will you up more than a stupid turnover), and I think he got straight-lined on the actual foul. When you ref, "you don't get no replay." And I'm here to tell ya, the hand is quicker than the eye. Don't ever doubt that.

We're neither perfect nor infallible. What we can be is consistent, and believe me we try. But no ref, nor a team of three of 'em, can make a mutt into an afghan hound. That was a freaking dog of a game, and I mean a GD yellow cur. Both teams played like , and no one could change that. Except the players.

Glad you appreciated it. I reffed one game in my entire life and realized all of what you said and more. No way could I ever be a ref. Can't wait for the payback either . Should be a good one!

 

[Timonen]

Funny thing is though...they aren't paid as though there are millions of fans and millions of dollars relying on their competency.

Now I'm not going to go as far as to say they don't make good money because they can make good money, but its not commensurate with top money for most professions and certainly not in the sports professions.

Cowtown can correct me if I'm wrong, but if what I read is correct I think they make a couple grand per game and then have to pay their own expenses (including travel to the game) out of that money. The guys that work the absolute most and only work power conference games might be grossing 350-400K. And I guess that is really good money for an intense period on the road for 5 months.

But how many of those top guys are there out there at that level and then compare that with the number of games that require 3 officials every Saturday? There are a lot of guys doing it as more of a part time gig and I can assure you the best guys aren't getting assigned to the GA Tech v. SU game...I would think they'd be doing the marquee games like UK v. KU, Iowa St. v OU, UVa v. Lville etc.. At least SU is a power 5 team and a marquee program within the power 5. I can only imagine the quality of refereeing that a game like Holy Cross v. Navy sees if they get assigned on a pecking order kind of basis.

With all the money the NCAA makes, maybe it should sink some of its cash into bolstering the system and grooming more guys beyond the ones at the absolute top.

The amount of money they make is irrelevant. They make more than just about anybody else in their industry, which is the measure we should be using.

 

[Cowtown]

I'm sure you have reason to say this, and some points are valid. But how do you explain the vast quality difference between pro and college level refs, or that the refs in college seem just to get worse and not merely in games Syracuse plays in. Also why are refs almost never disciplined by the NCAA? I recall one recent suspension and if I'm correct it's also the first I can remember.

Didn't see this until just now. The answer is "inverted economies of scale." From an old post a while back ...

"You're certainly on to part of the problem with trying to compel consistency. As I've mentioned before, there are approx 350 Div I mens teams, approx 280 Div II and over 300 Div III, Then there's the NAIA with over 260 teams. Now double those numbers to include womens' teams, and we're starting to see the magnitude of the situation. The NBA has what, 30 teams? They also have only about 65-70 referees to train and manage. And they're pros who don't have other jobs, unlike most of the thousands of college level officials.​

Officials are often sanctioned or disciplined for serious mistakes, we just don't see it. And I think it would be less than optimal to publicize it when it does occur, because fans/players/coaches would get ahold of it eventually and would have a negative impact on subsequent games done by that ref. Consider if you will, one John Clougherty who put Rumeal Robinson on the line with three seconds left in the then-tied 1989 NCAA final game. For despite working for over two more decades, Clougherty never saw another game of such magnitude.

 

[Cowtown]

Funny thing is though...they aren't paid as though there are millions of fans and millions of dollars relying on their competency.

Now I'm not going to go as far as to say they don't make good money because they can make good money, but its not commensurate with top money for most professions and certainly not in the sports professions.

Cowtown can correct me if I'm wrong, but if what I read is correct I think they make a couple grand per game and then have to pay their own expenses (including travel to the game) out of that money. The guys that work the absolute most and only work power conference games might be grossing 350-400K. And I guess that is really good money for an intense period on the road for 5 months.

But how many of those top guys are there out there at that level and then compare that with the number of games that require 3 officials every Saturday? There are a lot of guys doing it as more of a part time gig and I can assure you the best guys aren't getting assigned to the GA Tech v. SU game...I would think they'd be doing the marquee games like UK v. KU, Iowa St. v OU, UVa v. Lville etc.. At least SU is a power 5 team and a marquee program within the power 5. I can only imagine the quality of refereeing that a game like Holy Cross v. Navy sees if they get assigned on a pecking order kind of basis.

With all the money the NCAA makes, maybe it should sink some of its cash into bolstering the system and grooming more guys beyond the ones at the absolute top.

Well, let's see. Approx 18 weeks, let's say 5 games/week (yep, some of the top guys work that many) at approx $2500/game, so somewhere around $200,000-225,000 per year. But they give you a flat fee and you arrange your own transportation & accommodations now. They used to give you a game fee and a business class ticket, but many were trading those down and pocketing the difference which was never reported as income, so they had to stop it.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Well, let's see. Approx 18 weeks, let's say 5 games/week (yep, some of the top guys work that many) at approx $2500/game, so somewhere around $200,000-225,000 per year. But they give you a flat fee and you arrange your own transportation & accommodations now. They used to give you a game fee and a business class ticket, but many were trading those down and pocketing the difference which was never reported as income, so they had to stop it.

Their travel expenses must be ridiculous.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Didn't see this until just now. The answer is "inverted economies of scale." From an old post a while back ...

"You're certainly on to part of the problem with trying to compel consistency. As I've mentioned before, there are approx 350 Div I mens teams, approx 280 Div II and over 300 Div III, Then there's the NAIA with over 260 teams. Now double those numbers to include womens' teams, and we're starting to see the magnitude of the situation. The NBA has what, 30 teams? They also have only about 65-70 referees to train and manage. And they're pros who don't have other jobs, unlike most of the thousands of college level officials.​

Officials are often sanctioned or disciplined for serious mistakes, we just don't see it. And I think it would be less than optimal to publicize it when it does occur, because fans/players/coaches would get ahold of it eventually and would have a negative impact on subsequent games done by that ref. Consider if you will, one John Clougherty who put Rumeal Robinson on the line with three seconds left in the then-tied 1989 NCAA final game. For despite working for over two more decades, Clougherty never saw another game of such magnitude.

Thank you. Although presumably the refs who call the majority of the games, at least the televised ones, don't have a day job during the season. The amount of travel required would seem to preclude that.

 

[Cowtown]

Their travel expenses must be ridiculous.

And all deductible, along with all the other expenses like uniforms, shoes, membership & exam fees, etc. A friend of mine - also a university level ref here - moved to Arizona, and puts his chiropractic practice on hold during hoops season because he makes more reffing. And he just does NCAA womens Div I. The old boys clubs at the top of the mens' associations wouldn't even give him the time of day. And that's part of another problem

 

[CusefanATL]

Well, let's see. Approx 18 weeks, let's say 5 games/week (yep, some of the top guys work that many) at approx $2500/game, so somewhere around $200,000-225,000 per year. But they give you a flat fee and you arrange your own transportation & accommodations now. They used to give you a game fee and a business class ticket, but many were trading those down and pocketing the difference which was never reported as income, so they had to stop it.

I'll gladly take $200k in revenue, I'll estimate $75k in deductible expenses on the high side and $125k pre tax pay for 18 weeks out of the year. Run an insurance agency with 2 or 3 sales reps and taking home another $200k and having elite status on airline and hotel of your choice.

Now getting through the good ole boy clubs of Reffing and insurance worlds to get to that level is another story.

 

[RoysRunts]

Just plain incompetence. Im not claiming some agenda against SU or coach or whatever. This was the blue meth of pure incompetence. These guys were just making up crap as they went along.

One of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in years was the foul called on Malachi along the corner in the second half when he was whistled for having an illegal pick set on him. The guy that called it was about 75 feet away while the closer ref called nothing.

Another blue ribbon contender was the lack of a call on the cross body block on Mal the last play of the game where Smith almost tied it. They call you for breathing and then they let THAT go?

Not to mention the What foul called on Mike G that gave Tech two FT to try and tie.

6 SU Players fouled out against BC in the Leo Rautin/Dr Tom Davis era

 

[NYCSUGrad]

And all deductible, along with all the other expenses like uniforms, shoes, membership & exam fees, etc. A friend of mine - also a university level ref here - moved to Arizona, and puts his chiropractic practice on hold during hoops season because he makes more reffing. And he just does NCAA womens Div I. The old boys clubs at the top of the mens' associations wouldn't even give him the time of day. And that's part of another problem

The women's game has improved substantially in the past five years or so. It used to be that Uconn and Tennessee were at one level then there was a big decline in the quality of the game even by top 25 clubs. While Uconn is still the creme de la creme, I can watch a woman's game without cringing much anymore. Whereas the quality of the men's game is down, largely due to players leaving early. (Which also accounts for more upsets probably)

 

[Dave85]

He made a great play and wasn't rewarded. God bless America.

Best post of the thread by a mile!

 

[cuseinseattle]

These guys made Higgins and Burr look good.

I don't believe the officiating today was any worse than it was at Wake Forest. You could put all those zebras in a bag and shake it up and you still wouldn't come out with a competent official.

Making Higgins and Burr look good is quite a statement. It was pretty bad I will admit. I still think the Ohio State Elite 8 game is the worst officiating I have ever witnessed.

 

[realorange]

Making Higgins and Burr look good is quite a statement. It was pretty bad I will admit. I still think the Ohio State Elite 8 game is the worst officiating I have ever witnessed.

I believe that was our good friend Mike Stephens. The number of fouls called against us in that game vs those called on Ohio State was ridiculous. Also against the number of fouls called against us on the average over the year.

 

[Cowtown]

The women's game has improved substantially in the past five years or so. It used to be that Uconn and Tennessee were at one level then there was a big decline in the quality of the game even by top 25 clubs. While Uconn is still the creme de la creme, I can watch a woman's game without cringing much anymore. Whereas the quality of the men's game is down, largely due to players leaving early. (Which also accounts for more upsets probably)

You've touched on a large part of the problem, which is the fact that so many players leave the NCAA early and the impact that has on the quality of play. The SU/GT game was one of the worst played games I've seen in a long time, probably since the blue shorts game against BC. It's impossible for officials to elevate the level of play. Nor has that ever been part of their responsibility.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

You've touched on a large part of the problem, which is the fact that so many players leave the NCAA early and the impact that has on the quality of play. The SU/GT game was one of the worst played games I've seen in a long time, probably since the blue shorts game against BC. It's impossible for officials to elevate the level of play. Nor has that ever been part of their responsibility.

True, and I don't think most people would disagree. I'm sure it is harder to make judgment calls when you have more fouls occurring, though I'm not sure bad play automatically translates to that. But still, things are happening like the referee who is 30+ feet from the play overruling the one who is much closer, just to give one example.