One thing that is a lost art today...

[bpo57]

is the ability of guys to pump fake (particularly from 3), get the defender in the air and then jump into him to draw the shooting foul. Hardly anybody does that well in the college game. Now the shooter often recoils and looks to avoid contact. Back in the day somebody like Larry Bird would do that routinely. He'd get you in foul trouble and then make the foul shots.

 

[jgeorge322]

You must have loved sam young.

 

[alphaorange]

is the ability of guys to pump fake (particularly from 3), get the defender in the air and then jump into him to draw the shooting foul. Hardly anybody does that well in the college game. Now the shooter often recoils and looks to avoid contact. Back in the day somebody like Larry Bird would do that routinely. He'd get you in foul trouble and then make the foul shots.

Can't do that in the NBA anymore.

 

[Toga]

You know who teaches pump fakes? John Calipari.

 

[jgeorge322]

Remember when shammond williams of unc pump faked laron profit of maryland in the acc final, to draw a foul and three shots? It was with like 3 seconds left in regulation. Shammond, a great shooter, sent it to OT and unc ended up winning.

 

[bpo57]

Can't do that in the NBA anymore.

But in college you can.

 

[upperdeck]

still if the called it correctly it would be an offensive foul more often than one on the D

 

[Brooky03]

Bob Knight, is that you?

 

[bpo57]

You know who teaches pump fakes? John Calipari.

Nah he can't coach, he just rolls out the basketballs.

 

[bpo57]

still if the called it correctly it would be an offensive foul more often than one on the D

Not when you're off balance, running out on a shooter so that your momentum carries you forward and not vertically. that's a foul on the defender every time.

 

[jgeorge322]

Not when you're off balance, running out on a shooter so that your momentum carries you forward and not vertically. that's a foul on the defender every time.

Agree. Not sure how a defender jumping into you wouldnt be a defensive foul.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Especially when guys are closing out on shooters so hard. Maybe part of it also is that many shooters struggle putting it on the floor? I don't know. There definitely should be more pump fakes.

 

[Quazzum69]

is the ability of guys to pump fake (particularly from 3), get the defender in the air and then jump into him to draw the shooting foul. Hardly anybody does that well in the college game. Now the shooter often recoils and looks to avoid contact. Back in the day somebody like Larry Bird would do that routinely. He'd get you in foul trouble and then make the foul shots.

Cause it's like the most frustrating in basketball. It's like when some guy just stands there and lets someone run into him and it gets called a charge. THose are Duke plays (it's not actually basketball).

Either shoot the ball or just get the outta the gym. Move your freakin feet and play defense or just leave.

When did basketball become the game of who can con the refs into calling more fouls?

 

[Paul OLeary]

Cause it's like the most frustrating in basketball. It's like when some guy just stands there and lets someone run into him and it gets called a charge. THose are Duke plays (it's not actually basketball).

Either shoot the ball or just get the outta the gym. Move your freakin feet and play defense or just leave.

When did basketball become the game of who can con the refs into calling more fouls?

I guess your a fan of maul ball? Not me. To much grabbing/contact is ruining the college game. This year was better than last year but alot of people don't want to watch L'ville or Virginia beat someone 52 to 38.

I think you're in the minority as the game you describe is not basketball.

 

[Quazzum69]

I guess your a fan of maul ball? Not me. To much grabbing/contact is ruining the college game. This year was better than last year but alot of people don't want to watch L'ville or Virginia beat someone 52 to 38.

I think you're in the minority as the game you describe is not basketball.

Maul ball? I don't care if it's 52-38. The best sports in the world (soccer and football) have much less scoring. It could be 1-0, 3-0 (football conversion, I guess) - if it's fun to watch it's fun to watch. I don't like watching fat old guys blow their whistles and penalty shots.

It's not about the actual event of the ball going the into the basket, it's supposed to be the movement, the passing, etc. Somehow soccer keeps the game moving with limited fouls and relatively infrequent penalty shots. There is just as much shoving and pushing in soccer (certainly more injuries) but the ref manages to keep track of twice as many players with less fouls. I smell a rat.

Basketball is not even a sport considered to other contact sports. It's become a free-throw contest separated by advertisements (part of that is the commercialization aspect, but that is unrelated to the major flaws in the rules).

Naismith is rolling in his grave and its not because of the physical play.

 

[Paul OLeary]

Maul ball? I don't care if it's 52-38. The best sports in the world (soccer and football) have much less scoring. It could be 1-0, 3-0 (football conversion, I guess) - if it's fun to watch it's fun to watch. I don't like watching fat old guys blow their whistles and penalty shots.

It's not about the actual event of the ball going the into the basket, it's supposed to be the movement, the passing, etc. Somehow soccer keeps the game moving with limited fouls and relatively infrequent penalty shots. There is just as much shoving and pushing in soccer (certainly more injuries) but the ref manages to keep track of twice as many players with less fouls. I smell a rat.

Basketball is not even a sport considered to other contact sports. It's become a free-throw contest separated by advertisements (part of that is the commercialization aspect, but that is unrelated to the major flaws in the rules).

Naismith is rolling in his grave and its not because of the physical play.

Not going to debate soccer (2 fouls and your gone for the match) and basketball (3 fouls and your sitting for the half and hurting your team) as it's easier for the ref to control. OP was talking about a simple pump fake as a skill that is lost art. It would work because to many defenders are out of control when they come out to defend without establishing position. That is a foul, even back in Naismith's day. Guess we just disagree on what is wrong with the sport. No one wants to watch a 3-0 NFL game while freezing their arse off in an outdoor stadium in December - unless you have the under.

 

[cuseattle]

Bob Knight, is that you?

You beat me to that line. But, I still like Bobby Knight because of his favorable treatment of SU.

 

[bpo57]

I probably should have put it better. What is a lost art is when the shooter pump fakes and has the defender up in the air but then fails to take advantage by drawing the foul. That move is as old as Naismith and perfectly legal but rarely seen these days. Once or twice a game you'll see a shooter that fails to draw a foul on a guy off his feet and out of position.

 

[Cowtown]

is the ability of guys to pump fake (particularly from 3), get the defender in the air and then jump into him to draw the shooting foul. Hardly anybody does that well in the college game. Now the shooter often recoils and looks to avoid contact. Back in the day somebody like Larry Bird would do that routinely. He'd get you in foul trouble and then make the foul shots.

Here's your guy, then ...

(watch the first 35 seconds)

 

[alphaorange]

Agree. Not sure how a defender jumping into you wouldnt be a defensive foul.

That's not what he originally said. He said to jump into the defender, not have the defender jump into him. There is quite a distinction there. To quote: "get the defender in the air and then jump into him".

 

[jgeorge322]

That's not what he originally said. He said to jump into the defender, not have the defender jump into him. There is quite a distinction there. To quote: "get the defender in the air and then jump into him".

If the defender goes straight up its not a foul obviously.

 

[alphaorange]

Drawing a foul is only part of the reason for a pump fake. In fact, the primary reason for the fake is to put the defender off balance and out of position. Once that occurs, the offensive player gains an advantage and has multiple options, of which drawing contact on the shot is but one. Getting the player in the air and driving, for example, forces the rest of the defensive team to rotate while trying to cover, leading to open jump shots or dishes for layups and dunks. It's just a great move that can put more than just the initial defender at a disadvantage.

 

[alphaorange]

If the defender goes straight up its not a foul obviously.

It's also not a defensive foul if the offensive player jumps into the defender in the NBA. Like always, college will soon follow, mostly because it's the correct call. I've seen guys jump sideways to draw contact and get to the line. I'm not sure how anyone ever thought that was correct. It is supposed to be a foul if you jump into a shooter while he is taking his natural shot but somehow that got perverted over the years.

 

[bpo57]

Drawing a foul is only part of the reason for a pump fake. In fact, the primary reason for the fake is to put the defender off balance and out of position. Once that occurs, the offensive player gains an advantage and has multiple options, of which drawing contact on the shot is but one. Getting the player in the air and driving, for example, forces the rest of the defensive team to rotate while trying to cover, leading to open jump shots or dishes for layups and dunks. It's just a great move that can put more than just the initial defender at a disadvantage.

I agree with all of that. I am specifically talking about the defender running out on a guy shooting a 3 because the shooter appears ready to take the shot. All the shooter needs to do is continue with the shot. He's gonna absorb some contact but he'll go to the line for three shots while the defender picks up the foul . And the foul will be called on the defender every single time- and rightly so.

 

[bpo57]

It's also not a defensive foul if the offensive player jumps into the defender in the NBA. Like always, college will soon follow, mostly because it's the correct call. I've seen guys jump sideways to draw contact and get to the line. I'm not sure how anyone ever thought that was correct. It is supposed to be a foul if you jump into a shooter while he is taking his natural shot but somehow that got perverted over the years.

Dickie V used to talk about this- the principle of verticality. I'm talking about the defender moving forward off his feet.