OT: ADs Gross and White Sold UL to the ACC

[Scooch]

I doubt a lawsuit from 10 years ago, when the majority of current ACC Presidents and ADs weren't even at their respective schools, had much impact at all, if any whatsoever.

UConn was a victim of bad timing. If there wasn't the Big 12/B1G stuff swirling about the football-centric schools wouldn't have had much leverage and I bet UConn gets an invite. Hell, if they had replaced Edsall with some hotshot new coach that got them to a paper tiger 10 win football season ala Rutgers 2006, they might have gotten an invite.

UConn's a good fi for the ACC, they just ran into a buzzsaw of bad circumstances.

 

[Btstimpy]

UConn is on borrowed time. They like Syracuse, Boston College have to rely on NY/NJ/MA/CT/FL/PA as their home base for recruiting. If UConn isn't in a P5 in 3 years they will fade away in football. Atleast Temple has PA as its home base and if they are smart can become a MAC esque program for young coaches. The next AAC schools to be expansion fodder are Cincinnati and Central Florida because of football/media market/recruiting ground. UConn needed Syracuse to support them for the ACC, but their AD was too lazy to even call Dr. Gross unlike Louisville's AD Tom Jurich who took nothing for granted. UConn isn't going to be picked by the B1G. The B1G schools already hate Rutgers/Maryland the only expansion left that the B1G will do is North Carolina/Virginia(which neither wants) or Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas combinations for its Western Division.

Do you think that the ACC would add another Florida School? Central Florida and South Florida are intriguing, but the ACC already has 2 Florida Schools. I see where some of the Florida State faithful want one of them primarily because they can travel to those road games easily. I can see the Big XII looking at one of them because they don't have Florida access.

 

[NKR1978]

Do you think that the ACC would add another Florida School? Central Florida and South Florida are intriguing, but the ACC already has 2 Florida Schools. I see where some of the Florida State faithful want one of them primarily because they can travel to those road games easily. I can see the Big XII looking at one of them because they don't have Florida access.

I hope the ACC stands where it is until and unless ND is ready to join full time. At that point, if we're bringing in Notre Dame, might as well swing for the fences and go hard after Texas.

 

[Btstimpy]

I feel a little bad for UConn, but they keep acting like that relative/friend who feels like if you get invited to a party you have to bring them with you just because they are your relative/friend. Syracuse was not part of the 2003 ACC lawsuit and don't think the ACC schools never forget that. Its why we were their first choice for future expansion as 13 now Virginia Tech and Pitt were also part of that lawsuit, but UVA got the screws put to them by Marc Warner and that is how VPI got in, and whether its fair or not the perception that Bluthemal leading the lawsuit as the face for UConn made UConn the number 1 target for angst from the ACC and if BC/Miami blackballed UConn in favor of Pitt that is their own fault.

What annoys me is that it took so long for UConn to get into the D-1 game and they act like they should be given a lottery ticket as a result. While teams like TCU, SMU have history from the 70's and Louisville built itself from C-USA. Okay, UConn you stepped up in 1998 Congrats buddy, but how about earning your way into an elite league. Syracuse football was bad from 2005 till 2009 and they want to make that era seem like it wipes out our decades of history prior while they have none. We beat Kansas State, West Virginia, Minnesota in bowl games UConn's best bowl wins are South Carolina, Toledo, Buffalo. I mean Congrats you guys achieved mediocrity pretty easily by being given a golden ticket in a BCS league, but you have not accomplished that much so and when your small league and people will give you respect. Respect is earned NOT GIVEN.

This is my problem with the UConn program.

At this point in time, I'm glad that the Virginia Tech invite happened like it did. I think had Virginia Tech not gotten an ACC invite in 2002, they might have gotten an SEC invite in 2010. I don't want the SEC in the state.

The UConn thing to me for the ACC is to further secure the East and the New York City/New England area as an ACC area. UConn also brings good basketball, which the ACC likes. The ACC runs the risk of the Big Ten further expanding into that region and competing for mindshare. But as you state, the Big Ten is integrating Rutgers and Maryland at this time, and some of those midwestern schools are underwhelmed by those additions. The Big Ten might be gun shy about adding another school without football tradition.

 

[omniorange]

Fascinating article, thanks for posting it!

As hard as Jurich worked, and he clearly is an incredibly talented AD, I think UL had the inside track because of the way the landscape looked at the time. Let's not forget the FSU/Clemson to Big 12 rumors swirling about, along with the UNC/UVA to Big Ten stuff. Both may have been a good deal of hogwash, but they contributed to a climate of instability. The football-centric schools of the ACC had leverage, as did the traditional southern geographic base. I think those folks all had enough of adding basketball-centric, northern schools and wanted one of their own. UL was fortunate that they're football program was on a significant upswing.

Great post. Going to post something similar. Key to me in the article was how Jurich reached out to FSU and Clemson moreso than even TGD and White. And, as Tom said, let's not underestimate the unspoken anti-Yankee sentiment for some in the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

I doubt a lawsuit from 10 years ago, when the majority of current ACC Presidents and ADs weren't even at their respective schools, had much impact at all, if any whatsoever.

UConn was a victim of bad timing. If there wasn't the Big 12/B1G stuff swirling about the football-centric schools wouldn't have had much leverage and I bet UConn gets an invite. Hell, if they had replaced Edsall with some hotshot new coach that got them to a paper tiger 10 win football season ala Rutgers 2006, they might have gotten an invite.

UConn's a good fi for the ACC, they just ran into a buzzsaw of bad circumstances.

Not sure I agree with this. I think you are underestimating the anti-Yankee sentiment with some in the ACC, particularly the two most powerful programs UNC and FSU.

Louisville would have had to have been Kragthorpe bad for them not to get in over UConn, even if UConn football hadn't fallen off the map entirely at that point in time.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

Do you think that the ACC would add another Florida School? Central Florida and South Florida are intriguing, but the ACC already has 2 Florida Schools. I see where some of the Florida State faithful want one of them primarily because they can travel to those road games easily. I can see the Big XII looking at one of them because they don't have Florida access.

Not the poster you are asking the question of, but I don't see the ACC adding another Florida school. I think that is the last thing the institutions of FSU or Miami would want to see, regardless of what some FSU fans may say on a message board.

Big 12 is still a possibility though.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Scooch]

Not sure I agree with this. I think you are underestimating the anti-Yankee sentiment with some in the ACC, particularly the two most powerful programs UNC and FSU. Louisville would have had to have been Kragthorpe bad for them not to get in over UConn, even if UConn football hadn't fallen off the map entirely at that point in time. Cheers, Neil

Anti-Yankee sentiment from the administrations or the fanbases? Aren't most people in power at those schools, all ACC schools really, products of the geographically-agnostic backgrounds of elite universities? They didn't seem to have anti-Yankee feelings when pursuing Notre Dame or Penn State. I think they just didn't like that UConn basically sucks at football.

 

[Alsacs]

Do you think that the ACC would add another Florida School? Central Florida and South Florida are intriguing, but the ACC already has 2 Florida Schools. I see where some of the Florida State faithful want one of them primarily because they can travel to those road games easily. I can see the Big XII looking at one of them because they don't have Florida access.

ACC is standing pat IMO until either ND wants to commit fully or a team from another power league makes sense. UCF/Cincinnati are obvious additions for the Big XII when they need a championship game like the other 4 power conferences.

 

[Chip]

Anti-Yankee sentiment from the administrations or the fanbases? Aren't most people in power at those schools, all ACC schools really, products of the geographically-agnostic backgrounds of elite universities? They didn't seem to have anti-Yankee feelings when pursuing Notre Dame or Penn State. I think they just didn't like that UConn basically sucks at football.

I also think the ACC doesn't want anything to do with a college football program that's only 12 or 13 years old as a 1A. The Big East clung to schools like that out of desperation. For the ACC, I bet that's a big black eye.

Louisville was a no brainer. Top shelf hoops, emerging as a consistent high level football team, one of the best AD's in the country, and a sizeable athletics budget.

 

[Alsacs]

At this point in time, I'm glad that the Virginia Tech invite happened like it did. I think had Virginia Tech not gotten an ACC invite in 2002, they might have gotten an SEC invite in 2010. I don't want the SEC in the state.

The UConn thing to me for the ACC is to further secure the East and the New York City/New England area as an ACC area. UConn also brings good basketball, which the ACC likes. The ACC runs the risk of the Big Ten further expanding into that region and competing for mindshare. But as you state, the Big Ten is integrating Rutgers and Maryland at this time, and some of those midwestern schools are underwhelmed by those additions. The Big Ten might be gun shy about adding another school without football tradition.

Adding VPI was smart for the ACC, but SU fans wouldn't admit this until we got in as well. It hurt SU to spend 2004 till 2012 in purgatory in the Big East.

VPI as you said would be in the SEC if they didn't join the ACC in 2004. They would have been a perfect 14th team with Texas A&M in 2011. A&M and VPI are two of the top ROTC schools in the country and would have opened the SEC into VA. The SEC has nobody in VA and NC and those are two of the big Southern states.

UConn isn't a bad school, but they are like our Virginia Tech for you guys. They have good hoops/mediocre football and think we should look out for them when they are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves. VPI depended on UVA to get into the ACC and UConn acts like SU should do the same to them.

 

[omniorange]

Anti-Yankee sentiment from the administrations or the fanbases? Aren't most people in power at those schools, all ACC schools really, products of the geographically-agnostic backgrounds of elite universities? They didn't seem to have anti-Yankee feelings when pursuing Notre Dame or Penn State. I think they just didn't like that UConn basically sucks at football.

You always ignore your biases when it comes to $$$$ Kings in college athletics. You know that.

But when all things were equal, VT versus SU, who won out in the end? Five schools voted to get VT a site visit back in 2003 and you can bet that FSU, Clemson, and GT along with UVa were four of those five. And UNC and Duke agreed to consider expansion to 12, but wanted to make it clear with that vote that they reserved the right not to vote for expansion later on, which is what happened except for their Miami only proposal. Go back and research the articles from UNC's Moessner and read some of his anti-northern sentiments and how he didn't see how taking Miami, BC, and SU would make the ACC the conference from Boston to Miami. Look at the recent e-mails from UNC about Maryland's recent exodus and you can see the sentiment there again amongst UNC's booster base to the administrators with a clear preference for the SEC over the northern BiG - 149 to 1.

Maryland doesn't move to the BiG without Under Armour's blessing and support. UNC would be in a similar bind but with their major boosters and donors wanting the SEC over the BiG regardless that the president may prefer the BiG's academics, imho.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

Adding VPI was smart for the ACC, but SU fans wouldn't admit this until we got in as well. It hurt SU to spend 2004 till 2012 in purgatory in the Big East.

VPI as you said would be in the SEC if they didn't join the ACC in 2004. They would have been a perfect 14th team with Texas A&M in 2011. A&M and VPI are two of the top ROTC schools in the country and would have opened the SEC into VA. The SEC has nobody in VA and NC and those are two of the big Southern states.

UConn isn't a bad school, but they are like our Virginia Tech for you guys. They have good hoops/mediocre football and think we should look out for them when they are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves. VPI depended on UVA to get into the ACC and UConn acts like SU should do the same to them.

VT to the SEC may happen yet if the ACC doesn't close the gap. It may just take longer now due to the GOR. I still think that had the ACC gone with the original expansion back in 2003, in 2004 ND comes knocking on the ACC's doors and tries to get a similar deal as they have now which likely means by 2005 or 2006 at the latest, Pitt and VT are added as #s 13 and 14 and the ACC puts on the full-court press to get PSU and ND by 2007 or 2008 (a timetable that would have to be pushed up from 2011 due to the BiG's BTN in its infancy). Whether or not that effort would have succeeded is still doubtful though.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

VT to the SEC may happen yet if the ACC doesn't close the gap. It may just take longer now due to the GOR. I still think that had the ACC gone with the original expansion back in 2003, in 2004 ND comes knocking on the ACC's doors and tries to get a similar deal as they have now which likely means by 2005 or 2006 at the latest, Pitt and VT are added as #s 13 and 14 and the ACC puts on the full-court press to get PSU and ND by 2007 or 2008 (a timetable that would have to be pushed up from 2011 due to the BiG's BTN in its infancy). Whether or not that effort would have succeeded is still doubtful though.

Cheers,
Neil

Yeah, this is realistic. Penn State's chances to leave the B1G are only when their TV contracts expire and they did in 2008 and they are again in 2016. Every TV contract the B1G signs all the teams sign a GOR when they are negotiated. Penn State could have left the B1G in the last couple rounds of expansion and that is why the B1G threw them a bone and added Maryland and Rutgers along with their TV markets. If the B1G didn't add RU/UMD now then the ACC could have made a run at Penn State along with Notre Dame and blown the B1G out. However, Delaney wasn't an idiot like the Big East commissioners and made a per-emptive strike at the ACC taking the ONLY weak link Maryland because Debbie Yow left that AD in so bad of shape they had to cut all those sports programs. If Debbie Yow wasn't a bad AD for UMD I don't think they would have left even though their President had B1G ties.

 

[omniorange]

Yeah, this is realistic. Penn State's chances to leave the B1G are only when their TV contracts expire and they did in 2008 and they are again in 2016. Every TV contract the B1G signs all the teams sign a GOR when they are negotiated. Penn State could have left the B1G in the last couple rounds of expansion and that is why the B1G threw them a bone and added Maryland and Rutgers along with their TV markets. If the B1G didn't add RU/UMD now then the ACC could have made a run at Penn State along with Notre Dame and blown the B1G out. However, Delaney wasn't an idiot like the Big East commissioners and made a per-emptive strike at the ACC taking the ONLY weak link Maryland because Debbie Yow left that AD in so bad of shape they had to cut all those sports programs. If Debbie Yow wasn't a bad AD for UMD I don't think they would have left even though their President had B1G ties.

ACC won't bother to make a run at PSU in 2016. It will have to wait until the next go-round, if ever again.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-kevin-white,0,1385903.post

The Big Ten “clearly became McDonald’s in our industry, and anyone that would argue with that doesn’t know what they’re talking about,” White said. “I think unfortunately there was a time 3-4 years ago where, I don’t know who we were. We weren’t Whataburger, but we were between Whataburger and Wendy’s. We had fallen into that position. And I think the SEC was clearly Burger King.

ACC is just trying to get to Wendy's level right now.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Chip]

ACC won't bother to make a run at PSU in 2016. It will have to wait until the next go-round, if ever again.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-kevin-white,0,1385903.post

The Big Ten “clearly became McDonald’s in our industry, and anyone that would argue with that doesn’t know what they’re talking about,” White said. “I think unfortunately there was a time 3-4 years ago where, I don’t know who we were. We weren’t Whataburger, but we were between Whataburger and Wendy’s. We had fallen into that position. And I think the SEC was clearly Burger King.

ACC is just trying to get to Wendy's level right now.

Cheers,
Neil

Maybe we're Subway. Doing just fine, but a little different flavor. (I have no idea if Subway is doing well, I just know I see one every 3 blocks).

AAC is Arthur Treacher's. Fried fish with a unique seasoning combo of dirt and hair.

 

[Scooch]

You always ignore your biases when it comes to $$$$ Kings in college athletics. You know that. But when all things were equal, VT versus SU, who won out in the end? Five schools voted to get VT a site visit back in 2003 and you can bet that FSU, Clemson, and GT along with UVa were four of those five. And UNC and Duke agreed to consider expansion to 12, but wanted to make it clear with that vote that they reserved the right not to vote for expansion later on, which is what happened except for their Miami only proposal. Go back and research the articles from UNC's Moessner and read some of his anti-northern sentiments and how he didn't see how taking Miami, BC, and SU would make the ACC the conference from Boston to Miami. Look at the recent e-mails from UNC about Maryland's recent exodus and you can see the sentiment there again amongst UNC's booster base to the administrators with a clear preference for the SEC over the northern BiG - 149 to 1. Maryland doesn't move to the BiG without Under Armour's blessing and support. UNC would be in a similar bind but with their major boosters and donors wanting the SEC over the BiG regardless that the president may prefer the BiG's academics, imho. Cheers, Neil

I guess I just see a difference between expansion and changing conferences. Hell, I would prefer SU be in a northern anchored conference, just like UNC apparently would prefer to be in a southern anchored conference. Doesn't surprise me UNC fans would prefer SEC to Big Ten in the abstract. I'd prefer a viable Big East to the ACC, but that wasn't in the cards.

Hey, I have no idea what the hell these people think. I find the whole northern/southern thing to be abject nonsense, especially seeing as within a decade or two a huge chunk of the VA, NC and GA populations will be 1st and 2nd generation displaced northerners. If some 60 year old white dudes want to keep fighting the Civil War they can have at it.

I have to admit, as much as I know that joining the ACC was critically necessary for SU, I'm surprised how unenthusiastic I have been about it so far this year. Maybe SU hoops will get me in gear.

 

[omniorange]

I guess I just see a difference between expansion and changing conferences. Hell, I would prefer SU be in a northern anchored conference, just like UNC apparently would prefer to be in a southern anchored conference. Doesn't surprise me UNC fans would prefer SEC to Big Ten in the abstract. I'd prefer a viable Big East to the ACC, but that wasn't in the cards.

Hey, I have no idea what the hell these people think. I find the whole northern/southern thing to be abject nonsense, especially seeing as within a decade or two a huge chunk of the VA, NC and GA populations will be 1st and 2nd generation displaced northerners. If some 60 year old white dudes want to keep fighting the Civil War they can have at it.

I have to admit, as much as I know that joining the ACC was critically necessary for SU, I'm surprised how unenthusiastic I have been about it so far this year. Maybe SU hoops will get me in gear.

As pointed out in another post, I think our slow starts puts a damper on our football feelings more so than the conference slate. Had we started out 3-1, I think the ACC slate would have been more appealing. Also, it's an area that while we can appreciate defense, we want offense. So we started out our first ACC football season with two strikes right away. I think next year will be more exciting with more offensive playmakers.

As for basketball, other than Duke and UNC, not really caring for the conference foes but love this team. I'm glad we played both St. John's and Nova OOC. I think this might be our year. Last time I had that feeling was 2009-10.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

ACC won't bother to make a run at PSU in 2016. It will have to wait until the next go-round, if ever again.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-kevin-white,0,1385903.post

The Big Ten “clearly became McDonald’s in our industry, and anyone that would argue with that doesn’t know what they’re talking about,” White said. “I think unfortunately there was a time 3-4 years ago where, I don’t know who we were. We weren’t Whataburger, but we were between Whataburger and Wendy’s. We had fallen into that position. And I think the SEC was clearly Burger King.

ACC is just trying to get to Wendy's level right now.

Cheers,
Neil

ACC isn't going to make a run at Penn State because the B1G finally listened to them and added Eastern schools and they are happier. I can tell you the Penn State people I know hate the B1G office, and would have listened to the ACC after the crap of Sandusky and the perceived piling on of the B1G after what the NCAA did. The B1G knew the ACC could have made a play so Delaney pre-emptively went after the ACC like the ACC did to the Big East. Maryland was the weak link because of Debbie Yow killing that AD with so much debt they needed the cash.

The B1G as McDonald's is a back handed complement. McDonald's was the first super fastfood chain, but nowadays nobody goes their for a burger they go their if they have young kids and want them to get toys with their Happy meals. The SEC as Burger King makes sense because it is better than McDonald's and if I have to eat at a burger fastfood place its more liely to be BK than McDonald's. TexanMar has already called the ACC Chick-Fil-A. Which is perfect Chick-Fil-A is regional, but growing doesn't make anything but chicken sandwiches/nuggets and tastes so good you go back. The employees good attitude freaks you out the first couple of times you go there.

 

[omniorange]

ACC isn't going to make a run at Penn State because the B1G finally listened to them and added Eastern schools and they are happier. I can tell you the Penn State people I know hate the B1G office, and would have listened to the ACC after the crap of Sandusky and the perceived piling on of the B1G after what the NCAA did. The B1G knew the ACC could have made a play so Delaney pre-emptively went after the ACC like the ACC did to the Big East. Maryland was the weak link because of Debbie Yow killing that AD with so much debt they needed the cash.

The B1G as McDonald's is a back handed complement. McDonald's was the first super fastfood chain, but nowadays nobody goes their for a burger they go their if they have young kids and want them to get toys with their Happy meals. The SEC as Burger King makes sense because it is better than McDonald's and if I have to eat at a burger fastfood place its more liely to be BK than McDonald's. TexanMar has already called the ACC Chick-Fil-A. Which is perfect Chick-Fil-A is regional, but growing doesn't make anything but chicken sandwiches/nuggets and tastes so good you go back. The employees good attitude freaks you out the first couple of times you go there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/mcdonalds-sales_n_3671043.html

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/mcdonalds-sales_n_3671043.html

Cheers,
Neil

Again, I don't dispute McDonald's is #1. It is #1 because they have the most franchises and their brand is supreme I just said nobody goes their if they want a burger. I wouldn't eat at McDonald's unless my life depended on eating or I had a young child to get them a meal and toy which kids love. If I had to choose between McDonald's or Burger King I would choose Burger King. Same with Subway, Chick-Fil-A.

 

[omniorange]

Again, I don't dispute McDonald's is #1. It is #1 because they have the most franchises and their brand is supreme I just said nobody goes their if they want a burger. I wouldn't eat at McDonald's unless my life depended on eating or I had a young child to get them a meal and toy which kids love. If I had to choose between McDonald's or Burger King I would choose Burger King. Same with Subway, Chick-Fil-A.

Actually, Subway has over 10K more franchises than does McDonald's per the attached article in my post. I prefer Wendy's myself.

But the real point is once again you are taking your own personal perspective and then applying it to the rest of the world and making your personal preference sound like FACT when it simply is not.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

Actually, Subway has over 10K more franchises than does McDonald's per the attached article in my post. I prefer Wendy's myself.

But the real point is once again you are taking your own personal perspective and then applying it to the rest of the world and making your personal preference sound like FACT when it simply is not.

Cheers,
Neil

I equate this shot to like when I deal with somebody who wants to argue how something is said(style) rather than what is actually said(substance). I could honestly careless if somebody disagrees with me, but when I get attacked nothing unleashes my inner lawyer more than that. I don't care if its McDonald's, Subway, Burger King I understood your point and you understood my point. I do not make a personal preference sound like a fact its how you interrupt what I say that gives you that idea. I am reasonable and when I am wrong I acknowledge it. I was wrong McDonald's doesn't have the most franchises is Subway I guess, but people who don't like how I say things(I am not saying you this time) like to take ONE thing and make it mean everything I say is opinion. I know my stuff and I am not afraid to be bombastic when I care about something. However, Penn State was why the B1G added Rutgers/Maryland. Missouri was available for the B1G and they are better than Rutgers, but the B1G went East for multiple reasons TV/Cable boxes, and to appease Penn State and prevent them from being poachable by the ACC. However, because I incorrectly said McDonald's had the most franchises you make it sound like I say EVERYTHING with a personal preference sound like a fact. Instead, that is how YOU and OTHERS interrupt it. I bet not everybody thinks the same way about how I talk, but you don't seem to want acknowledge that instead I take ALL my personal perspective and give them off as FACTS. I am now going to copy PoppyHart and put in my signature everything I say is an opinion so its not misinterpreted.