OT - HS Hoops Referees

[CuseFaninVT]

I didn't get any responses over on the Other Sports board, and I'm still infuriated with this, so I thought I would share here as well.

And with all respect to my good friend Cowtown, HS refs in VT suck and no, I'm not going to pick up the whistle myself.

This is a picture of one of the most cleanly blocked 3 point shots in the history of time, and yet, our player (in blue) was whistled for the foul. The ref making the call explained to our coach that he got a ton of arm. Not possible, but that was the explanation. Our player came from behind the shooter and made this play. As I look at it now, I'm fairly certain the ref who made the call was probably shielded by our player.

 

[two3zone]

Wow!

 

[upperdeck]

what happened the next second or two on the follow thru of the block?

reffing at the HS level you get what you pay for.. few want to do it but everyone wants to complain.

here is what I tried to explain to kids.. Block dont swat.. the best shot blocker of all time Mr Russell. said in the Red Check series. A block that you dont control is not a block worth making. never block a shot out of bounds unless its the only resort you have

that kid could have caught the ball in mid air instead he is taking a home run swing, the shooters arm probably went backwards and at speed it will look like a foul. Its terrible form for a block. i good shot block the ball should never move more than a ft or 2.

 

[rrlbees]

I've seen a LOT of HS games over the years, both boys and girls. I get FAR less frustrated with HS refs than I do with college refs.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

what happened the next second or two on the follow thru of the block?

reffing at the HS level you get what you pay for.. few want to do it but everyone wants to complain.

here is what I tried to explain to kids.. Block dont swat.. the best shot blocker of all time Mr Russell. said in the Red Check series. A block that you dont control is not a block worth making. never block a shot out of bounds unless its the only resort you have

that kid could have caught the ball in mid air instead he is taking a home run swing, the shooters arm probably went backwards and at speed it will look like a foul. Its terrible form for a block. i good shot block the ball should never move more than a ft or 2.

Pushed the ball down, and never swung his arm before the block. I’m very aware of that because my own son does the full on karate chop wayyyyy too often.

Question for the rule-knowledgeable. If there is arm contact after the block like this, is that a foul? In this case, it should have been a jump ball, which would have stopped the clock and the play.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I've seen a LOT of HS games over the years, both boys and girls. I get FAR less frustrated with HS refs than I do with college refs.

And now for the rest of the story. Yes, I’ve been holding out.

This ref seems to truly hate our coach. During a playoff game last year in Rutland, this ref was berating our coach during live action, with his back completely turned to the court. I’ve never seen another ref give up on the play to get into it with a coach like this.

The other thing about this one is we had three refs for the game.

 

[patcuse]

I've seen a LOT of HS games over the years, both boys and girls. I get FAR less frustrated with HS refs than I do with college refs.

The section 3 refs are pretty decent a lot of them do college d3 also. The girls, little that I watched yikes.

 

[Brooky03]

It’s not just HS refs.

I’m still bothered by a last second 3 that Paul George, a garbage player all around, completely air balled against the Knicks to win the game. He wasn’t in the realm of even being touched by a Knicks player but because he airballed, the refs assumed he was fouled. Went to the stripe and won the game there.

 

[UpstateSM]

The section 3 refs are pretty decent a lot of them do college d3 also. The girls, little that I watched yikes.

A Section 3 ref or two came all the way to Saranac Lake when I played juco. I don't remember if they were great refs but the one I struck a conversation with pregame was a nicer guy than I envisioned him being when I was playing in high school.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I didn't get any responses over on the Other Sports board, and I'm still infuriated with this, so I thought I would share here as well.

And with all respect to my good friend Cowtown, HS refs in VT suck and no, I'm not going to pick up the whistle myself.

This is a picture of one of the most cleanly blocked 3 point shots in the history of time, and yet, our player (in blue) was whistled for the foul. The ref making the call explained to our coach that he got a ton of arm. Not possible, but that was the explanation. Our player came from behind the shooter and made this play. As I look at it now, I'm fairly certain the ref who made the call was probably shielded by our player.

View attachment 175592

They get paid very little. Many of them are way past their prime physically and/or look like they are about to give birth to twins. They take a ton of abuse, most of it from parent spectators who don't know the rules and have absolutely no idea what they are screaming about.

Having watched and coached my two kids play football, soccer, basketball, lacrosse and baseball and seeing how some coaches, some players and a lot of parents behave towards them, I honestly have no idea why anyone would want to be one.

 

[OrangeDW]

Many of them aren’t very good, but hardly anybody wants to do it. I wouldn’t want to do it. Without them, there’s no game.

People in general need to calm down at high school sports games. They really mean very little.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

They get paid very little. Many of them are way past their prime physically and/or look like they are about to give birth to twins. They take a ton of abuse, most of it from parent spectators who don't know the rules and have absolutely no idea what they are screaming about.

Having watched and coached my two kids play football, soccer, basketball, lacrosse and baseball and seeing how some coaches, some players and a lot of parents behave towards them, I honestly have no idea why anyone would want to be one.

Very true on the JV level up here, but these three look like they could run a 10k tomorrow. Two of these guys are considered best in the state. The guy who blew this whistle looks like he could pump out 50 pushups at any time.

 

[NineOneSeven]

It’s not just HS refs.

I’m still bothered by a last second 3 that Paul George, a garbage player all around, completely air balled against the Knicks to win the game. He wasn’t in the realm of even being touched by a Knicks player but because he airballed, the refs assumed he was fouled. Went to the stripe and won the game there.

Wait, what?

 

[MSOrange]

Many of them aren’t very good, but hardly anybody wants to do it. I wouldn’t want to do it. Without them, there’s no game.

People in general need to calm down at high school sports games. They really mean very little.

Heck two of my best friends in college did little league baseball our freshman year. They made it through the year to honor their commitment but didn't even think about doing it any more after that.

 

[malpearl31]

I didn't get any responses over on the Other Sports board, and I'm still infuriated with this, so I thought I would share here as well.

And with all respect to my good friend Cowtown, HS refs in VT suck and no, I'm not going to pick up the whistle myself.

This is a picture of one of the most cleanly blocked 3 point shots in the history of time, and yet, our player (in blue) was whistled for the foul. The ref making the call explained to our coach that he got a ton of arm. Not possible, but that was the explanation. Our player came from behind the shooter and made this play. As I look at it now, I'm fairly certain the ref who made the call was probably shielded by our player.

View attachment 175592

Certainly looks like a bad call (with the caveat that you can't really make a full judgment of a call like this with a picture). And as the son of a NY State HS referee - and a friend of a current NBA referee - I'll add two comments from my conversations/experience talking with them: 1) Most bad/missed calls are primarily the result of the ref being out of position or blocked from a perfect view. 2) Most referees really, really want to get every call right and would be sick to their stomach to know that they badly botched one.

At the NBA level, the referees have access to video of every second of every game and they get teaching clips / training all the time. (And when they're not refereeing, they're watching NBA games and texting one another about calls and/or rules interpretations.) I can email the NBA ref that I know about any play from any game and he'll typically respond by the next morning at the latest with a thorough analysis of exactly what the correct call was. The NBA guys are basketball junkies and perfectionists... but you'll never get that at the HS level, unfortunately.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Certainly looks like a bad call (with the caveat that you can't really make a full judgment of a call like this with a picture). And as the son of a NY State HS referee - and a friend of a current NBA referee - I'll add two comments from my conversations/experience talking with them: 1) Most bad/missed calls are primarily the result of the ref being out of position or blocked from a perfect view. 2) Most referees really, really want to get every call right and would be sick to their stomach to know that they badly botched one.

At the NBA level, the referees have access to video of every second of every game and they get teaching clips / training all the time. (And when they're not refereeing, they're watching NBA games and texting one another about calls and/or rules interpretations.) I can email the NBA ref that I know about any play from any game and he'll typically respond by the next morning at the latest with a thorough analysis of exactly what the correct call was. The NBA guys are basketball junkies and perfectionists... but you'll never get that at the HS level, unfortunately.

I’m thinking of blowing up that pic and handing out a couple hundred copies so that folks can provide a teaching moment to that ref. I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

 

[OrangeDW]

Heck two of my best friends in college did little league baseball our freshman year. They made it through the year to honor their commitment but didn't even think about doing it any more after that.

Oh yeah, a lot of those parents are just ridiculous. I said high school means very little...well youth sports mean absolutely NOTHING in terms of who wins. I’m in favor of permanent bans for any parents who say anything to the umps at that level. Seriously, who cares who wins those games or if there’s a bad call? It will have zero effect on anyone’s life either way. Letting the kids play and have fun and learn the basics(and learn not to be friggin babies who can’t handle bad calls or any adversity) is all that matters at that level.

 

[20plus]

My IAABO BOARD 38 for section 3 here locally is the best thing I’ve joined in quite some time! It is stacked with tons of top talent.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I didn't get any responses over on the Other Sports board, and I'm still infuriated with this, so I thought I would share here as well.

And with all respect to my good friend Cowtown, HS refs in VT suck and no, I'm not going to pick up the whistle myself.

This is a picture of one of the most cleanly blocked 3 point shots in the history of time, and yet, our player (in blue) was whistled for the foul. The ref making the call explained to our coach that he got a ton of arm. Not possible, but that was the explanation. Our player came from behind the shooter and made this play. As I look at it now, I'm fairly certain the ref who made the call was probably shielded by our player.

View attachment 175592

have you watched an nba game? a college game? have you seen how bad those officials are? you think the gems are being hidden in high school?

 

[pfister1]

Oh yeah, a lot of those parents are just ridiculous. I said high school means very little...well youth sports mean absolutely NOTHING in terms of who wins. I’m in favor of permanent bans for any parents who say anything to the umps at that level. Seriously, who cares who wins those games or if there’s a bad call? It will have zero effect on anyone’s life either way. Letting the kids play and have fun and learn the basics(and learn not to be friggin babies who can’t handle bad calls or any adversity) is all that matters at that level.

Kids would be 100% better off if they played youth sports with one game coach per team and didn't allow other adults to attend.

 

[Brooky03]

Wait, what?

I don’t like Paul George. And I think he’s overrated.

Do we have to take this outside?

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

I’m thinking of blowing up that pic and handing out a couple hundred copies so that folks can provide a teaching moment to that ref. I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

I hope you’re kidding because, all due respect, that’d be a horrific example for the kids on the team.

Judging by the still photo, the call was botched. It’s unfortunate, but teach the kids get over it & play through it. That’s a lesson that will carry on through life.

 

[CusefanATL]

you cant make a decision on a still photo. need video. no one can argue a call right or wrong based solely on that picture. not saying it was a foul or wasnt a foul, but 1 still picture is never evidence that can be used.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

you cant make a decision on a still photo. need video. no one can argue a call right or wrong based solely on that picture. not saying it was a foul or wasnt a foul, but 1 still picture is never evidence that can be used.

If you were a betting man, which way would you lean?

It wasn’t a foul. Should have been a jump ball if he really needed to blow the whistle.

 

[OrangeDW]

have you watched an nba game? a college game? have you seen how bad those officials are? you think the gems are being hidden in high school?

lol, yup. Basketball is just a tough sport to officiate in general IMO.

Coming from a guy known to spazz about the refs. Really what I hate in college hoops is the general way the block/charge is handled and flops and undercuts are rewarded...though it doesn’t seem quite as bad this year? Maybe because we don’t really get to the rack anyway? Anyways, that’s more of a big picture issue IMO.

Really good refs are going to miss calls in every games, sometimes in brutal fashion.