OT: i remember when this board said flynn was better than harden

[orangehomer]

i didn't know what to think, i am not an nba scout. it is interesting that some scouts whiffed on flynn but someone hit on harden. i don't think it is very hard to see which guy is better.

 

[SUskibum]

I remember when this board said melo was better than darko

 

[orangehomer]

everyone said melo was better than darko

 

[BlackKnight76]

People overreacted because most only saw Harden in the one game against us in the second round of the tourney, when he was sick and we dominated them. Jonny was really good, but Harden was one of the best players in the country all season.

 

[rrlbees]

Did this board say that or did some posters say that?

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[JackBauer44]

People overreacted because most only saw Harden in the one game against us in the second round of the tourney, when he was sick and we dominated them. Jonny was really good, but Harden was one of the best players in the country all season.

Spot on BK. It would have been an interesting matchup to see what a healthy Harden combined with Pendergast, who was a very underrated player as well.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I also remember people saying that JF was the next chris paul.

now im hearing similar things likening waiters to wade.

homerism is a hell of a drug

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Even with Flynn doing next to nothing with his chances to date...we still have folks who think he will be a great fit in NY...

There are none so blind...

 

[DeGrozz]

i didn't know what to think, i am not an nba scout. it is interesting that some scouts whiffed on flynn but someone hit on harden. i don't think it is very hard to see which guy is better.

I'm going to sound like a homer, but:

Harden is better than Flynn because Flynn had a career de-railing surgery in his first off-season as an NBA player and has never recovered. In the same time, Harden has had years to improve his game instead of rehab it. Flynn hasn't regained his first step or explosiveness that he used to his advantage during his rookie campaign. Before the injury though, Flynn had a more promising first year than Harden. If anything, the difference in career trajectories shows how an injury can have huge consequences on young players -- this has no correlation with scouting...

 

[PoppyHart]

Even with Flynn doing next to nothing with his chances to date...we still have folks who think he will be a great fit in NY...

There are none so blind...

It's not his fault. There's something in the water in Minnesota.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm going to sound like a homer, but:

Harden is better than Flynn because Flynn had a career de-railing surgery in his first off-season as an NBA player and has never recovered. In the same time, Harden has had years to improve his game instead of rehab it. Flynn hasn't regained his first step or explosiveness that he used to his advantage during his rookie campaign. Before the injury though, Flynn had a more promising first year than Harden. If anything, the difference in career trajectories shows how an injury can have huge consequences on young players -- this has no correlation with scouting...

Well I do agree with the first part of your post...

Their first years were pretty close, Harden had a better PER (14-13) for whatever that is worth, which admittedly isn't much. By win shares, Harden was much better, which once again, may not be worth much. But I don't really think you can definitively say that Flynn was better than Harden as a rookie. Flynn struggled to score efficiently (which was always going to be an issue for him) and Harden had a 55% true shooting, which for a rookie is really good.

Flynn's career was derailed by injuries, to be sure. But his rookie year, to me, was nothing more than ok. He's a short guard who was always going to have trouble scoring with good efficiency, and his rookie year did nothing to dispel that knock on him. Seems like more often than not, a player who sees his draft stock shoot up with a post season run is going to end up overrated. (I'm totally making this up but it makes sense).

I guess the bottom line is because of the injury, everyone in this case is going to think they were right.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

There are a ton of lottery picks who never made it...and they all have a story as to why. The NBA isn't for everyone...especially 5'11 point guards. There have been some exceptions, but not many.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Well I do agree with the first part of your post...

Their first years were pretty close, Harden had a better PER (14-13) for whatever that is worth, which admittedly isn't much. By win shares, Harden was much better, which once again, may not be worth much. But I don't really think you can definitively say that Flynn was better than Harden as a rookie. Flynn struggled to score efficiently (which was always going to be an issue for him) and Harden had a 55% true shooting, which for a rookie is really good.

Flynn's career was derailed by injuries, to be sure. But his rookie year, to me, was nothing more than ok. He's a short guard who was always going to have trouble scoring with good efficiency, and his rookie year did nothing to dispel that knock on him. Seems like more often than not, a player who sees his draft stock shoot up with a post season run is going to end up overrated. (I'm totally making this up but it makes sense).

I guess the bottom line is because of the injury, everyone in this case is going to think they were right.

I thought Flynns stock improved after the predraft workouts. There were a lot of concerns that Flynn was going to be fringe first round after he initially declared.

 

[Knicks411]

I thought Flynns stock improved after the predraft workouts. There were a lot of concerns that Flynn was going to be fringe first round after he initially declared.

I could be wrong on the timeline, I'll cop to that. Though I'd say a lot of the same stuff about workouts as I would great p ostseason runs. I seem to remember his stock shooting up after the BET. I'll do some digging.

http://walterfootball.com/nbadraftdata2009.php

Mock draft history; really cool. Jonny didn't shoot into the top 5 until very close to the draft. I thought he was considered a lotto pick before that.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

i didn't know what to think, i am not an nba scout. it is interesting that some scouts whiffed on flynn but someone hit on harden. i don't think it is very hard to see which guy is better.

Dion could be a Hardin like guy: stymied in the college game, explosive in the NBA's game.

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[HOFCeluck]

Dion could be a Hardin like guy: stymied in the college game, explosive in the NBA's game.

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Year G-GS Min-Avg FG-A Pct FG3-A Pct FT-A Pct Rb-Avg -D Ast To Bk St Pts-Avg
07-08 34-33 1150-34.1 196-372 .527 44-108 .407 169-224 .754 179-5.3 72-2 110 89 19 73 605-17.8
08-09 35-35 1254-35.8 221-452 .489 58-163 .356 204-270 .756 195-5.6 99-4 148 118 11 59 704-20.1
Totals 69-68 2412-35.0 417-824 .506 102-271 .376 373-494 .755 374-5.4 171-6 258 207 30 132 1309

Avg'd 20.1 pts, 5.6 rbs. Led the league in steals per game Soph year. First team All-American and PAC-12 POY in 2009.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Year G-GS Min-Avg FG-A Pct FG3-A Pct FT-A Pct Rb-Avg -D Ast To Bk St Pts-Avg
07-08 34-33 1150-34.1 196-372 .527 44-108 .407 169-224 .754 179-5.3 72-2 110 89 19 73 605-17.8
08-09 35-35 1254-35.8 221-452 .489 58-163 .356 204-270 .756 195-5.6 99-4 148 118 11 59 704-20.1
Totals 69-68 2412-35.0 417-824 .506 102-271 .376 373-494 .755 374-5.4 171-6 258 207 30 132 1309

Avg'd 20.1 pts, 5.6 rbs. Led the league in steals per game Soph year. First team All-American and PAC-12 POY in 2009.

How does that equate adjusted for minutes and competition level.

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[Knicks411]

How does that equate adjusted for minutes and competition level.

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Wasn't the Pac 12 pretty damn good when Harden was there? I don't see how you could say Harden was stymied in the college game

 

[HOFCeluck]

How does that equate adjusted for minutes and competition level.

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If you average 20 per game in a BCS conference and are a first team AA, I don't think it matters. Even if it's the Pac 10.

I certainly wouldn't call that "Stymied" by any definition. People only seem to remember the 2009 NCAA tournament 2nd round.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Wasn't the Pac 12 pretty damn good when Harden was there? I don't see how you could say Harden was stymied in the college game

three teams in Kenpom's top 25, 8 in the top 50. Not a lot of elite teams, but pretty good competition.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

If you average 20 per game in a BCS conference and are a first team AA, I don't think it matters. Even if it's the Pac 10.

I certainly wouldn't call that "Stymied" by any definition. People only seem to remember the 2009 NCAA tournament 2nd round.

That is the only time I ever saw him.

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[44cuse]

i didn't know what to think, i am not an nba scout. it is interesting that some scouts whiffed on flynn but someone hit on harden. i don't think it is very hard to see which guy is better.

Most people on this board seemingly watch Syracuse...not college basketball.

44cuse

 

[SWC75]

I remember posting after that game that there must have been somehting wrong with Harden because he couldn't have put up those numbers or won those awards playing like that. it was obvious that he shouldn't be judged on that game. Also, he wasn't a point guard so a direct comparison to Flynn was irrelevant.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

One could argue Flynn is not a point guard either...he was always kind of a sheep in wolves clothing (pun not intended).

 

[DoctorBombay]

In Jonny's defense, the injury and being force-fed the Triangle Offense as a rookie by the inept Kurt Rambis, had alot to do with his drop-off. JF is, was, and always will be a a pick-n-roll PG, hence the Chris Paul comparisons. The brilliant Wolves coaching staff apparently thought otherwise...as a rookie...in the Western Conference...on a young team.
Harden, OTOH, landed in a great organization with the NBA's emerging dominant player- he's had the luxury of Durant and Westbrook and there was little pressure. He's a great player obviously, but if he'd been drafted by the Clippers or Nets or Raptors, would he be the player he is today?
Jonny? He only had Rubio looking over his shoulder, the bumbling Kahn front office, an angry fanbase, and incompetent coaching staff.
Hopefully JF will find a place to grow and make a comeback- he's still young and very capable, IMO.