OT : if you think we got whupped

[tbonezone]

we see these kinds of stories pop up from time to time. HS girls teams loses 161-2. winning coach suspended

link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rls-basketball-coach-suspended-161-2-win.html

thoughts?

 

[Brooky03]

From the losing team's perspective, I'd be more embarrassed by an opposing coach putting all the subs in, and those subs still having to play half-a$$ed just so they don't beat us by 100+, than getting beat by 150+ by a team that's playing their best the whole way through.

High school is tricky because there are such large talent discrepancies, but I don't agree that the coach should have to change the team's strategy or change their effort just to avoid beating a team by too much. As long as the second string players play roughly half the game, the coach did the right thing; the starters deserve to play half the game, too.

 

[CusefanATL]

we see these kinds of stories pop up from time to time. HS girls teams loses 161-2. winning coach suspended

link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rls-basketball-coach-suspended-161-2-win.html

thoughts?

The losing coach should be suspended for not having her girls play physical. How is 0 fouls even possible?

 

[bevosu]

We're those losers playing zone?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

we see these kinds of stories pop up from time to time. HS girls teams loses 161-2. winning coach suspended

link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rls-basketball-coach-suspended-161-2-win.html

thoughts?

The new America. Punish excellence.
Maybe the other coaches can learn from this guy.
The more I read about dominate teams at different schools (locally F-M cross country, Bville girls volleyball), the more convinced I am that kids will deliver excellence, when it is a requirement. The same goes for the classroom and in life.

 

[pfister1]

How do you keep a press on to create a 100+ point differential?? It sounds like the losing team had no ball handlers. Maybe once you are up 20 or 30 points and its clear you're beating the opponent into submission you should think about a different approach to the game.

The winning coach has to be a real tool. "The game just got away from me." That sounds like a game with a 40 or 50 point margin, not a 103 point margin at half time in which you keep a press on.

Maybe whoever put the winning school in the same division as the losing school should be be suspended. Obviously, they don't even come close to taking the same approach to athletics.

And if the winning team is regularly trouncing opponents by 50+ points there is a real problem. High School Athletics is supposed to be about competition and it sounds like this team has a schedule that affords it very little competition. Maybe that coach or AD is only interested in racking up wins. What value are the games when they are as lopsided as the ones mentioned in that article?

 

[tbonezone]

perhaps an easy solution would be that at halftime the game could have been officially conceded. then simply wipe the slate clean,mix up the teams a little and play a competitive scrimmage second half. probably more fun for both teams.

 

[Ghost]

So the losing team had zero field goals for the entire game?

1 point in the first half.

1 point in the second half.

Sounds like the losing team needs a new coach.

 

[Cowtown]

From the losing team's perspective, I'd be more embarrassed by an opposing coach putting all the subs in, and those subs still having to play half-a$$ed just so they don't beat us by 100+, than getting beat by 150+ by a team that's playing their best the whole way through.

High school is tricky because there are such large talent discrepancies, but I don't agree that the coach should have to change the team's strategy or change their effort just to avoid beating a team by too much. As long as the second string players play roughly half the game, the coach did the right thing; the starters deserve to play half the game, too.

Okay, but everyone knows the press should come off after +20 points, which they must have reached at somewhere around 2 minutes in. If he pressed the whole first half, he deserved a sanction of some kind.

 

[tptcuse]

Okay, but everyone knows the press should come off after +20 points, which they must have reached at somewhere around 2 minutes in. If he pressed the whole first half, he deserved a sanction of some kind.

Clearly utilizing the press was the problem here. If he wanted to "practice for future games," he should have done that in practice, not humiliate a bunch of opposing high school girls.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Guys...every kid deserves a trophy. Remember that.

 

[jncuse]

Coach probably suspended the girl who allowed the other team to score 2 points.

 

[Brooky03]

Okay, but everyone knows the press should come off after +20 points, which they must have reached at somewhere around 2 minutes in. If he pressed the whole first half, he deserved a sanction of some kind.

I don't agree. If the press is his team's main defense - sounds like it is - then he should stay in that defense.

 

[sabach]

I am currently coaching a girls varsity basketball team which is very young and inexperienced. We have not won a game all season. Most games are out of touch by halftime. If some teams wanted to, they could press us all game and win 100-10. I'm sure all of you "tough guys" who demand excellence and can't see what is wrong with this 161-2 score have never had to enter a locker room with players after losing our 16th blowout game in a row and try to think of something positive to say to the girls who played their hearts out but just are not very gifted athletes.

 

[jordoo]

I fail to see why the coach who's team could only manage 2 points and 0 fouls (at least in the second half) has an reason to say anything about the winning coach. There is no inherent right not to be embarrassed in competitive sport once you are at the high school level. Should the coach make his second string players not play hard, not play the system he coaches or generally not ask and expect a good performance and effort from them? What kind of message is that? It is in no way his fault that apparently the other team has no basketball players at all. I mean they must have no one who can dribble or pass at all. That is more of a failing of the losing coach than the winning coach. Many of these High schoolers may be trying to get schollies they can't be letting other teams not look so horrid.

 

[sabach]

I fail to see why the coach who's team could only manage 2 points and 0 fouls (at least in the second half) has an reason to say anything about the winning coach. There is no inherent right not to be embarrassed in competitive sport once you are at the high school level. Should the coach make his second string players not play hard, not play the system he coaches or generally not ask and expect a good performance and effort from them? What kind of message is that? It is in no way his fault that apparently the other team has no basketball players at all. I mean they must have no one who can dribble or pass at all. That is more of a failing of the losing coach than the winning coach. Many of these High schoolers may be trying to get schollies they can't be letting other teams not look so horrid.

You see no value at the high school level of teaching lessons on sportsmanship and class?

 

[jordoo]

You see no value at the high school level of teaching lessons on sportsmanship and class?

I do but competing at a lessor level to make your opponent not "feel so bad" is not sportsmanship IMO its the opposite of it and makes the whole competition disingenuous. I have no problem with holding the ball and or not trying to score later in the game but how can you tell your kids not to play defense? They pressed the first half and it was 100 something to 2. How much better do you think they would do against half court defense? They obviously cannot dribble or pass. The coaches scheme is full court press which likely is because handling and passing is a weakness at that level yet his team must be able to do it. Should the 2nd and 3rd string kids not get a chance to play in his system so they are more ready next year? Should they not get a chance to score just because the other team blows? I have been told I am way too competitive so I'm probably in the minority. I crushed my oldest daughter on Mario Cart Wii for 2 years but she crushes all her friends because of it and beats me from time to time now because I rarely play and I'm rusty. The joy she gets from beating me once knowing that I tried my hardest likely outweighs letting her win 10000 times.

 

[tbonezone]

sorry but there is no joy in beating an opponent 161-2. that's just kicking helpless puppies. and if you enjoy it , seek help.

 

[sabach]

I do but competing at a lessor level to make your opponent not "feel so bad" is not sportsmanship IMO its the opposite of it and makes the whole competition disingenuous. I have no problem with holding the ball and or not trying to score later in the game but how can you tell your kids not to play defense? They pressed the first half and it was 100 something to 2. How much better do you think they would do against half court defense? They obviously cannot dribble or pass. The coaches scheme is full court press which likely is because handling and passing is a weakness at that level yet his team must be able to do it. Should the 2nd and 3rd string kids not get a chance to play in his system so they are more ready next year? Should they not get a chance to score just because the other team blows? I have been told I am way too competitive so I'm probably in the minority. I crushed my oldest daughter on Mario Cart Wii for 2 years but she crushes all her friends because of it and beats me from time to time now because I rarely play and I'm rusty. The joy she gets from beating me once knowing that I tried my hardest likely outweighs letting her win 10000 times.

Let me see if I'm getting you. If a coach who is up 100-2 at halftime calls the dogs off in the second half so as not to embarrass the other team anymore than they already are, that would make the competition disingenuous? The purpose of a press is to cause turnovers and easy transition baskets. Going back on defense and playing a soft MTM or a soft 2-3 zone limits the ability to run up the score because you can take the air out of the ball even on defense. I have no problem with beating up on my own kids to make them tough. I do the same with my sons and daughters. However, for your kids sake I hope they don't ever play game after game where they are playing against teams with coaches who think like you. My daughters are going through that right now and it is hell.

 

[jordoo]

Let me see if I'm getting you. If a coach who is up 100-2 at halftime calls the dogs off in the second half so as not to embarrass the other team anymore than they already are, that would make the competition disingenuous? The purpose of a press is to cause turnovers and easy transition baskets. Going back on defense and playing a soft MTM or a soft 2-3 zone limits the ability to run up the score because you can take the air out of the ball even on defense. I have no problem with beating up on my own kids to make them tough. I do the same with my sons and daughters. However, for your kids sake I hope they don't ever play game after game where they are playing against teams with coaches who think like you. My daughters are going through that right now and it is hell.

His system is pressing though right? Shouldn't the 2nd and 3rd string kids be learning that system as well in game situations. Yes he could have had the 1st string who already knows the system change defense 5-10min in if he wanted to play them the whole first half. But the 2nd and 3rd string kids at lest need to have a chance at playing the main defense IMO. Certainly the margin would have been smaller but I doubt a team that could only manage 2 against a press was going to score that much against any defense. Perhaps his team cannot score either in the half court, who knows. Either way is it nice to show some mercy? sure. I just don't think that its something that is required and kids need to learn hard lessons as well. I am not and will never coach any sport on any level. I help my own kids practice ball skills and such but tell them to listen to the coach. I cheer, encourage and let them know when they aren't giving effort but other than that at the games I refuse to yell at the refs, coaches or shout out instructions other than telling my own children to put more effort in if they are obviously dragging. I would not be a good coach, don't have the patience for it and I would likely coach to go for the kill all the time which judging by this thread wouldn't go over well. God bless the coaches my girls have had though, they've been great IMO. Teaching an actual system and spacing in soccer, very supportive upbeat and encouraging.

I understand that its likely not that much fun for either team in a 151-2 game but its not the better teams fault, that's my main point.

 

[sabach]

His system is pressing though right? Shouldn't the 2nd and 3rd string kids be learning that system as well in game situations. Yes he could have had the 1st string who already knows the system change defense 5-10min in if he wanted to play them the whole first half. But the 2nd and 3rd string kids at lest need to have a chance at playing the main defense IMO. Certainly the margin would have been smaller but I doubt a team that could only manage 2 against a press was going to score that much against any defense. Perhaps his team cannot score either in the half court, who knows. Either way is it nice to show some mercy? sure. I just don't think that its something that is required and kids need to learn hard lessons as well. I am not and will never coach any sport on any level. I help my own kids practice ball skills and such but tell them to listen to the coach. I cheer, encourage and let them know when they aren't giving effort but other than that at the games I refuse to yell at the refs, coaches or shout out instructions other than telling my own children to put more effort in if they are obviously dragging. I would not be a good coach, don't have the patience for it and I would likely coach to go for the kill all the time which judging by this thread wouldn't go over well. God bless the coaches my girls have had though, they've been great IMO. Teaching an actual system and spacing in soccer, very supportive upbeat and encouraging.

I understand that its likely not that much fun for either team in a 151-2 game but its not the better teams fault, that's my main point.

Fair enough Jordoo. The point of not pressing is not to give the other weaker team a better chance to score against you in the half court offense, it is to take the air out of the ball on defense so that the game is shortened and the score is not run up more. Just like you would do on offense when you tell the players to pass 10 times before a shot is taken. There is no doubt in my mind that given the score of this game, the second and third strings got nothing out of playing in this game. Certainly, practicing against each other in a scrimmage would be better practice for them. I've been in these games as a coach from both sides and it is not fun either way. The only lesson that is learned by a score of 161-2 is that the coach of the 161 team is a jerk.

 

[jordoo]

Fair enough Jordoo. The point of not pressing is not to give the other weaker team a better chance to score against you in the half court offense, it is to take the air out of the ball on defense so that the game is shortened and the score is not run up more. Just like you would do on offense when you tell the players to pass 10 times before a shot is taken. There is no doubt in my mind that given the score of this game, the second and third strings got nothing out of playing in this game. Certainly, practicing against each other in a scrimmage would be better practice for them. I've been in these games as a coach from both sides and it is not fun either way. The only lesson that is learned by a score of 161-2 is that the coach of the 161 team is a jerk.

You are probably right, but I still just have issues with coming down on coaches/teams for winning big. My question would be more along the lines of why is there such a disparity in competition level of teams that are playing each other and is there some way to fix that. Also what is going on with the coach who's team scored 2 points? What is he doing. My older daughter wants to play bball next year and so far its just been soccer which even when its bad your only losing by 10-12 so it doesn't seem as devastating. I'm sure watching my own children's team get destroyed would give me a different outlook but in general my issue would still be more or less why are two teams with an obviously huge difference in talent and skill facing off?

 

[Cowtown]

I don't agree. If the press is his team's main defense - sounds like it is - then he should stay in that defense.

Well, you don't learn anything from pressing teams that can't break the press. If anything, your kids will just pick up bad habits and start loafing, because it's just too easy.

 

[Cowtown]

Fair enough Jordoo. The point of not pressing is not to give the other weaker team a better chance to score against you in the half court offense, it is to take the air out of the ball on defense so that the game is shortened and the score is not run up more. Just like you would do on offense when you tell the players to pass 10 times before a shot is taken. There is no doubt in my mind that given the score of this game, the second and third strings got nothing out of playing in this game. Certainly, practicing against each other in a scrimmage would be better practice for them. I've been in these games as a coach from both sides and it is not fun either way. The only lesson that is learned by a score of 161-2 is that the coach of the 161 team is a jerk.

I've been on both sides of that. One year I had a very strong team and we played a new school in their first year, and some of their kids had never played before. We didn't press, partly for the reason shown above, but mostly because it just would have been wrong. So I made the rule that day that everyone had to touch the ball before anyone could shoot. On D, no one was allowed to defend outside the arc, and NO fast breaks - walk it up and run the offense. And you should have seen the joy in the other team's faces when they actually scored some baskets. At the end of about a 50 point win, their coach and even a couple parents said thanks for doing what I could to hold it down. I still see that coach sometimes when I ref, and he knows I'm doing my best to be fair.

Another year we were quite weak, and I even kept 4 kids who had never played before (should tell you what I had to cut!). And this was at the varsity level. Nobody pressed us, and didn't win a single game (0-10), nor did we even come close. The worst score I remember was 88-12. We had a lot more fun in practice than during the games, and they were really nice kids and I had a lot of fun with them, but the games were awful. We didn't even accept any tournament invitations because they were just tired of being embarrassed.

 

[shermstheman]

I've been on both sides of that. One year I had a very strong team and we played a new school in their first year, and some of their kids had never played before. We didn't press, partly for the reason shown above, but mostly because it just would have been wrong. So I made the rule that day that everyone had to touch the ball before anyone could shoot. On D, no one was allowed to defend outside the arc, and NO fast breaks - walk it up and run the offense. And you should have seen the joy in the other team's faces when they actually scored some baskets. At the end of about a 50 point win, their coach and even a couple parents said thanks for doing what I could to hold it down. I still see that coach sometimes when I ref, and he knows I'm doing my best to be fair.

Another year we were quite weak, and I even kept 4 kids who had never played before (should tell you what I had to cut!). And this was at the varsity level. Nobody pressed us, and didn't win a single game (0-10), nor did we even come close. The worst score I remember was 88-12. We had a lot more fun in practice than during the games, and they were really nice kids and I had a lot of fun with them, but the games were awful. We didn't even accept any tournament invitations because they were just tired of being embarrassed.

I'm of that school of thought too. In my limited time coaching I always had a good team. When we got up big we focused on doing things well that weren't strengths, like better ball movemebt, getting non scorers the ball where they could do something with it. No threes, seek a lay up. Have a shooting guard take the point, see what kids could do in different roles- you might benefit down the road. We had to keep up the effort though we would stop pressing and breaking. It always worked well.