OT-NFL punishments are messed up

[Alsacs]

Josh Gordon is an idiot, but all the guy got suspended for was smoking marijuana and now they suspended him for a season while Ray Rice beats his girlfriend/wife up and only gets 2 games. So basically Gordon would have been better off beating a person rather than failing a second marijuana test.

Honesty, this is a joke and Mr. Goodell shows the NFL discipline system is plain pathetic.

 

[Orangepace]

This was a bizzare case no matter what way you look at it... His specimen was separated into two samples as is standard for the testing procedures. His A sample tested at 16 nanograms/liter, the testing threshold is set to 15 ng/l. His B sample tested at 13.6 ng/l, which is below the threshold. The NFL disregarded the second test even though typically both samples are consistent. Further, a 16 ng/l test is also consistent with tests performed on individuals subjected only to second hand smoke. The whole debacle should have subjected Gordon to a retest.

And just to be clear, I have no horse in the race... didn't pick him in fantasy drafts and don't particularly have any feelings one way or the other toward the guy. Just think that the facts don't justify the upheld suspension at all. Hate to see a guy lose a year of compensation for something this botched, yet another beat his wife with the videos surfacing and only grabbing a 2 game suspension.

 

[Alsacs]

This was a bizzare case no matter what way you look at it... His specimen was separated into two samples as is standard for the testing procedures. His A sample tested at 16 nanograms/liter, the testing threshold is set to 15 ng/l. His B sample tested at 13.6 ng/l, which is below the threshold. The NFL disregarded the second test even though typically both samples are consistent. Further, a 16 ng/l test is also consistent with tests performed on individuals subjected only to second hand smoke. The whole debacle should have subjected Gordon to a retest.

And just to be clear, I have no horse in the race... didn't pick him in fantasy drafts and don't particularly have any feelings one way or the other toward the guy. Just think that the facts don't justify the upheld suspension at all. Hate to see a guy lose a year of compensation for something this botched, yet another beat his wife with the videos surfacing and only grabbing a 2 game suspension.

If the NFL wanted to slap him around since this was his second marijuana failing give him 8 games and make him lose half a season. 1 year suspension for a drug that shouldn't be a class 1 drug is a joke while Ray Rice beats a women on TAPE and only gets 2 games.

Goodell is a joke and is becoming Ozymandias.

 

[Upstate]

Wasn't the suspension severity/length part of the NFLPA CBA?

 

[CU44SE]

This was a bizzare case no matter what way you look at it... His specimen was separated into two samples as is standard for the testing procedures. His A sample tested at 16 nanograms/liter, the testing threshold is set to 15 ng/l. His B sample tested at 13.6 ng/l, which is below the threshold. The NFL disregarded the second test even though typically both samples are consistent. Further, a 16 ng/l test is also consistent with tests performed on individuals subjected only to second hand smoke. The whole debacle should have subjected Gordon to a retest.

And just to be clear, I have no horse in the race... didn't pick him in fantasy drafts and don't particularly have any feelings one way or the other toward the guy. Just think that the facts don't justify the upheld suspension at all. Hate to see a guy lose a year of compensation for something this botched, yet another beat his wife with the videos surfacing and only grabbing a 2 game suspension.

After a positive test (over 15) the second urine is tested. Any amount above 0 for sample B will constitute an automatic fail. However, if they grab his sample B first and test it ( it was 13), they would have never tested the other sample (the one that was 16) and he would have passed the test. He truly was very unlucky, basically a 50/50 chance.

 

[Crusty]

All I have to say is that you guys know an awful lot about these tests!

 

[SUfanNC]

After a positive test (over 15) the second urine is tested. Any amount above 0 for sample B will constitute an automatic fail. However, if they grab his sample B first and test it ( it was 13), they would have never tested the other sample (the one that was 16) and he would have passed the test. He truly was very unlucky, basically a 50/50 chance.

If that doesn't scream inconsistent...

By the way do they show you which they tested first? How exactly does that work?

 

[DeGrozz]

Josh Gordon is an idiot, but all the guy got suspended for was smoking marijuana and now they suspended him for a season while Ray Rice beats his girlfriend/wife up and only gets 2 games. So basically Gordon would have been better off beating a person rather than failing a second marijuana test.

Honesty, this is a joke and Mr. Goodell shows the NFL discipline system is plain pathetic.

Gordon has failed multiple drug tests. I get that it's a low-level drug. I get that he barely had any in his system. I get that it probably should be legalized and regulated like alcohol is. But his employer has still asked him not to use the drug, he has agreed to that by signing an employment contract, but he has still been caught doing it multiple times. In his employment agreement it explicitly states the consequences if he has it in his system -- I don't have any issue with the NFL holding him to that agreement.

My issue is that Ray Rice will don an NFL jersey this year. He should be banned.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Gordon has failed multiple drug tests. I get that it's a low-level drug. I get that he barely had any in his system. I get that it probably should be legalized and regulated like alcohol is. But his employer has still asked him not to use the drug, he has agreed to that by signing an employment contract, but he has still been caught doing it multiple times. In his employment agreement it explicitly states the consequences if he has it in his system -- I don't have any issue with the NFL holding him to that agreement.

My issue is that Ray Rice will don an NFL jersey this year. He should be banned.

You are right. The two are apples and oranges. Bottom line on paring any suspension to that of Ray Rice would be skewed because that was the biggest crock of ever. Roger good ell has carried a big stick for years, and he left it at home that day.

 

[CU44SE]

One was collectively bargained by the union (drug policy) which has a standard suspension policy for failures to obey. Rice and domestic abuse, as disgusting as it is, isn't a policy or collectively bargained. Therefore as much as people disagree, you cannot compare the two punishments.

 

[retro44]

One was collectively bargained by the union (drug policy) which has a standard suspension policy for failures to obey. Rice and domestic abuse, as disgusting as it is, isn't a policy or collectively bargained. Therefore as much as people disagree, you cannot compare the two punishments.

when the Rice punishment was doled out the National airwaves and T.V. talked to death how the punishment was not in the collective bargain agreement and that Goodell was a coward for not handing out a precedent that would deter more cases...chicken stuff Goodell

 

[djcon57]

Better question is when will Jim Irsay be suspended? I wouldn't hold my breath

 

[Jamesvillecuse]

Josh Gordon actually said he wished the NFL had used better discretion and judgement in denying his appeal...lol

 

[Symphony Steve]

Better question is when will Jim Irsay be suspended? I wouldn't hold my breath

Another good question is why the NFL rushed to clear the name of that Cleveland Browns' owner after his company paid a multi-million dollar penalty for fraud, $92 mill to be exact:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11214330/jimmy-haslam-company-pilot-flying-j-pay-92m-fine

I'll answer it. Most of the league's owners are guys who either inherited their money or used shady tactics to become the billionaires they are today. They run the league, the commissioner serves at their pleasure, so they get passes for offenses far more serious than smoking too much reefer.

 

[Orangepace]

After a positive test (over 15) the second urine is tested. Any amount above 0 for sample B will constitute an automatic fail. However, if they grab his sample B first and test it ( it was 13), they would have never tested the other sample (the one that was 16) and he would have passed the test. He truly was very unlucky, basically a 50/50 chance.

Thanks for the clarification. This method of testing seems illogical, but I understand it is what it is. If I were writing the policy, if Sample A tests above the limit and Sample B tests below the limit, it should be discarded and a new test run. I'm an accountant, not a scientist, but the FDA forces companies to run trials and not just one quick sample to prove effectiveness. To me, if both samples test the same, you have your sample size. If the results differ, the test was not effective and a breakdown of controls seems to have occurred.

 

[dollarbill44]

Gordon has failed multiple drug tests. I get that it's a low-level drug. I get that he barely had any in his system. I get that it probably should be legalized and regulated like alcohol is. But his employer has still asked him not to use the drug, he has agreed to that by signing an employment contract, but he has still been caught doing it multiple times. In his employment agreement it explicitly states the consequences if he has it in his system -- I don't have any issue with the NFL holding him to that agreement.

My issue is that Ray Rice will don an NFL jersey this year. He should be banned.

Gordon has failed exactly TWO NFL issued drug tests. He came into the league on the probation list because of his pot issues in college. The first positive test was last year when he tested positive for codeine from a prescription cold medication he was taking. The second was the 16 ng test that is in play here (I won't even get into how preposterously low that threshhold is compared to other testing protocols). Meanwhile, he has passed 72 NFL drug tests (according to his agent) in his 2+ years in the league.

He's clearly not the brightest guy out there given his multiple traffic stops, including his pending DUI from NC and his earlier traffic stop in Ohio from this spring where one of his passengers was ticketed for pot possession. In fact, if Josh Gordon didn't have bad judgment, he wouldn't have any judgment at all.

He is guilty of being stupid and he should certainly shoulder some of the blame here, but the NFL drug program is a joke and shame on the NFLPA for ever agreeing to it. The way the NFL doles out their player punishments with no regard for the bigger picture (i.e. 2 games for aggravated assault and 16 games for second-hand pot smoke), it reminds me a little of how another sports institution hands out penalties - the NCAA.

 

[CU44SE]

Thanks for the clarification. This method of testing seems illogical, but I understand it is what it is. If I were writing the policy, if Sample A tests above the limit and Sample B tests below the limit, it should be discarded and a new test run. I'm an accountant, not a scientist, but the FDA forces companies to run trials and not just one quick sample to prove effectiveness. To me, if both samples test the same, you have your sample size. If the results differ, the test was not effective and a breakdown of controls seems to have occurred.

Ya, even if they took the average he would have been below the illegal limit and passed which is crazy. Olympics actually just raised their threshold from 15 to 150. This article says for someone to fail 150 they would have to smoke a lot and they are only trying to catch people that test positive during the competition. So maybe the NFL should change it to like 50 or 75. But you should never have a level which can be set off by second hand smoke. Obviously he wasn't and should have been smarter considering the circumstances he was under, but imagine if a Denver Bronco failed a test under this scenario? Its legal in Colorado and therefore how can you suspend someone that was exposed to second hand smoke from legal smoking?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...iati-olympics-marijuana-drug-testing/2528283/

 

[Upstate]

Jane McManus ‏@janesports 1m
The NFL announced sweeping new measures on domestic violence in a letter to owners today; Six games for 1st offense, lifetime ban for 2nd.

 

[DeGrozz]

Gordon has failed exactly TWO NFL issued drug tests. He came into the league on the probation list because of his pot issues in college. The first positive test was last year when he tested positive for codeine from a prescription cold medication he was taking. The second was the 16 ng test that is in play here (I won't even get into how preposterously low that threshhold is compared to other testing protocols). Meanwhile, he has passed 72 NFL drug tests (according to his agent) in his 2+ years in the league.

He's clearly not the brightest guy out there given his multiple traffic stops, including his pending DUI from NC and his earlier traffic stop in Ohio from this spring where one of his passengers was ticketed for pot possession. In fact, if Josh Gordon didn't have bad judgment, he wouldn't have any judgment at all.

He is guilty of being stupid and he should certainly shoulder some of the blame here, but the NFL drug program is a joke and shame on the NFLPA for ever agreeing to it. The way the NFL doles out their player punishments with no regard for the bigger picture (i.e. 2 games for aggravated assault and 16 games for second-hand pot smoke), it reminds me a little of how another sports institution hands out penalties - the NCAA.

I absolutely understand where you are coming from on this, but I also think it might miss the point on the NFL drug program. The NFL drug program wasn't developed because they were terrified their players might get high. The NFL drug program was developed because the NFL has to do everything that it possibly can to protect its brand. They've developed one of the most successful and profitable family-friendly businesses in the world and they have every right to demand their employees, who are constantly in the public eye, uphold that image.

The NFL makes these players richer than most of us could ever imagine, I have no problem with them saying -- "By the way, for the 5 or 10 years you're in my league, you need to stay away from drugs and trouble with the law."

But like I said, the Rice punishment was a mistake and it looks like the NFL admitted that much today.

 

[dollarbill44]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from on this, but I also think it might miss the point on the NFL drug program. The NFL drug program wasn't developed because they were terrified their players might get high. The NFL drug program was developed because the NFL has to do everything that it possibly can to protect its brand. They've developed one of the most successful and profitable family-friendly businesses in the world and they have every right to demand their employees, who are constantly in the public eye, uphold that image.

The NFL makes these players richer than most of us could ever imagine, I have no problem with them saying -- "By the way, for the 5 or 10 years you're in my league, you need to stay away from drugs and trouble with the law."

But like I said, the Rice punishment was a mistake and it looks like the NFL admitted that much today.

Fair enough, but don't you think the positive test level of 15 ng/ml is ridiculously low? Compare it to other sports governing bodies (MLB = 50 ng; IOC = 150 ng) as well as widespread corporate and federal drug testing guidelines (DOT standard of 50 ng is the established baseline). 50 ng is considered the baseline because it rules out second-hand smoke as a cause whereas 15 ng does not. When you consider that it is a semi-legal substance, it makes the NFL standard even more preposterous. I bet if the NFL took a survey of fans, most wouldn't care if the NFL did away with it's pot testing.

 

[DeGrozz]

Fair enough, but don't you think the positive test level of 15 ng/ml is ridiculously low? Compare it to other sports governing bodies (MLB = 50 ng; IOC = 150 ng) as well as widespread corporate and federal drug testing guidelines (DOT standard of 50 ng is the established baseline). 50 ng is considered the baseline because it rules out second-hand smoke as a cause whereas 15 ng does not. When you consider that it is a semi-legal substance, it makes the NFL standard even more preposterous. I bet if the NFL took a survey of fans, most wouldn't care if the NFL did away with it's pot testing.

I hear ya, man.

I'm not really coming to the defense of their policies -- the way that I am looking at it is that they are a private organization, with at-will employees, that has a policy about federally banned substances.

My point isn't that their stance is correct or fair, but that they have their own rights to set and enforce standards/guidelines for their employees that they believe will protect their business, especially in such a public industry.

 

[TDTOrange]

Fair enough, but don't you think the positive test level of 15 ng/ml is ridiculously low? Compare it to other sports governing bodies (MLB = 50 ng; IOC = 150 ng) as well as widespread corporate and federal drug testing guidelines (DOT standard of 50 ng is the established baseline). 50 ng is considered the baseline because it rules out second-hand smoke as a cause whereas 15 ng does not. When you consider that it is a semi-legal substance, it makes the NFL standard even more preposterous. I bet if the NFL took a survey of fans, most wouldn't care if the NFL did away with it's pot testing.

Not that I really want to jump in here, but there are many facts missing from this discussion. When this agreement went into place, 15ng was the standard for the WADA, etc. So it's not like the NFL set some draconian level here, it was the former standard. Many other organizations have since raised their limits, and for the NFL to do so it would involve reopening this part of the CBA. The NFL has basically decided that they aren't modifying the drug agreement part of the CBA until the NFLPA agrees to HGH testing. The same HGH tests that are used in all other leagues, Olympics, etc. This has been sitting on the table for 3 years, and the NFLPA keeps finding reasons to not accept this testing.

 

[retro44]

Fair enough, but don't you think the positive test level of 15 ng/ml is ridiculously low? Compare it to other sports governing bodies (MLB = 50 ng; IOC = 150 ng) as well as widespread corporate and federal drug testing guidelines (DOT standard of 50 ng is the established baseline). 50 ng is considered the baseline because it rules out second-hand smoke as a cause whereas 15 ng does not. When you consider that it is a semi-legal substance, it makes the NFL standard even more preposterous. I bet if the NFL took a survey of fans, most wouldn't care if the NFL did away with it's pot testing.

actually it's 15 by the method they are using and very accurate.....http://www.lgsdrugtesting.com/catalog.php?item=9

mlb is probably just using a cheap method, but in the end both levels are the same. it seems like every job I take now requires me to take a drug test

 

[Stern]

Jane McManus ‏@janesports 1m
The NFL announced sweeping new measures on domestic violence in a letter to owners today; Six games for 1st offense, lifetime ban for 2nd.

This is a good new rule but it will be tough to enforce and they left a lot of gray area. Like what technically constitutes domestic violence? If a girl drops the charges after a few weeks of the incident, is it still a 6 game suspension? So if a guy gets charged with domestic violence he gets a 6 game suspension. Then in 2 or 3 months when he is in court for the charges it comes out he is totally innocent and lets just say for example sake he was "set up" somehow, he gets cleared. Then he gets a legit domestic violence a year later. Is it a lifetime ban since he is being charged for a 2nd time? Or since the first one was bogus does he get 6 games again and the first one was erased?

I know the easy answer is...well don't get a domestic violence charge and have to worry about this. But reality is someone will be in a situation like this, and there are cases of wrongful accusations (ie Duke Lacrosse) and the new rule while a step in the right direction should be more clear I feel.

 

[dollarbill44]

actually it's 15 by the method they are using and very accurate...http://www.lgsdrugtesting.com/catalog.php?item=9

mlb is probably just using a cheap method, but in the end both levels are the same. it seems like every job I take now requires me to take a drug test

The IOC cutoff for a positive test is 150. MLB is 50. DOT is 50. Anything under those levels and the test is considered "negative". The urine screening is all pretty standard, basic stuff and information is readily available on the internet via different sites (which is where I got my info) on how testing is done and the different screening levels by different organizations. It's not a question of MLB using a cheaper test.

I'm not questioning the NFL's right to test for pot, or any other organization, public or private. What I'm questioning is the NFL's insistence on a considerably tighter standard (TDTORange addressed the standard pretty well). While you may think the NFL standard is the same as the others, it isn't, and this has been backed up by numerous experts on the subject over the last 4 weeks since the Josh Gordon suspension was first announced.