OT: Some really bad news for the local economy

[PeteCalvin]

"Lockheed Martin agreed with New York state in 1996 to maintain employment at a minimum of 1,500 for 30 years at Electronics Park, in return for a series of economic incentives."

Soooo????

If Congel can twist the tax break rules, so can they, unfortunately.

 

[wfschrec]

Sounds like Lockheed Martin is on its way out http://www.syracuse.com/news/index...._syracuse_plant_-_for_now.html#incart_m-rpt-2

This could be the death knell for the syracuse economy.

I used to work there and still have quite a few friends that do ... the writing has been on the wall for that plant since LM closed the facility in Eagan, MN ... when the corporation showed the moxie to just shutdown sites this was bound to happen. The corporation will maintain its $1 lease rate as long as they stay above 1500 employees ... really sad considering in its hayday that park had over 6,600 people working there when it was GE. The park itself needs a serious overhaul ... built in the 40s it was designed to look like school buildings in the even that the region was somehow bombed ... lot of history there sad to see it come to this.

 

[PeteCalvin]

If Dr. Gross thought football attendance has been lackluster up until now, this will be a real kick in the teeth. It's hard for SU fans to buy tickets to games if they don't even live and/or work here.

I still remember the days when Carrier and GM Fisher Body were humming right along. Pretty sad.

 

[alphaorange]

WARNING - THE FOLLOWING IS AN OFF TOPIC RANT

Well maybe the Mexicans will open their border and allow more immigration to their country so Americans can find work. We are looked down upon there, but we work hard and just want to take care of our families.

That was a bad joke, sort of. People who are sillily worried about immigration and Mexico are missing a fact that more Americans moved to Mexico from the US than the other way around over the past 5 or 10 years. NAFTA means that our cheap fracked natural gas (25% of the prices paid in China or Europe) are flowing in pipelines across the border to Mexico's industrial cities. Given wage inflation in China, and accounting for energy and shipping costs, for most industries production in Mexico is now on par with China - and you get the benefit of reasonable governance, a forward looking president in Mexico, consistent rule of law (minus the drug stuff), and seemless integration in to the supply chain of the United States. Global corporations looking to sell into this country can locate in Asia or Eastern Europe, or they can locate in Mexico or the southern US. Increasingly they are choosing Mexico and the industrial economy there is growing incredibly rapidly.

Fortunately cheap energy gives us a competitive advantage in energy intensive industries with technical barriers - specialty chemicals stuff like that -- so there is some hope of manufacturing recovering in the US, especially in places that have natural gas reserves...if local politicians decide to let them be tapped there is some hope of resurgent manufacturing even in NY state with the right incentives and targetting of the right industries. Hope it happens - plenty of $250k beautiful old homes for people to buy up and good wholesome communities to live in - solid quality of life versus the WalMart strewn waffle house ridden southern interior where most plants are locating these days.

END RANT

25 million illegal immigrants say your numbers are FOS...

http://immigrationcounters.com/

 

[Cheriehoop]

Two words:

Taxation & Regulation

They are killing the state.

Hmm - looks like they received plenty of incentives and pledged to stay 30 years in 1996 to stay. They are talking about moving jobs to Owego which is NYS.

From the P-S article below on Lockheed. Guess in addition to those incentives I guess the $1 leased proved too much.

"But Lockheed has steadily reduced its workforce at Electronics Park in Salina since 2011 as the federal government began making deep spending cuts on defense programs.

Employment remained steady at about 2,300 people from 1996 through 2011, but several rounds of layoffs since then reduced the workforce in Salina to about 1,700 this summer.

Lockheed Martin agreed with New York state in 1996 to maintain employment at a minimum of 1,500 for 30 years at Electronics Park, in return for a series of economic incentives.

The incentives included a 30-year lease for $1 on the state-owned Electronics Park property. The sprawling campus was originally built in 1942 by General Electric Co., which also developed radar and other electronic products at the site. "

 

[Crusty]

I have no idea why they shelved it for now but I am betting a call from Hollywood Chuck probably played little to no roll in there decision.

I am not so sure - a defense contractor? Hmmmm.

 

[Crusty]

Two words:

Taxation & Regulation

They are killing the state.

Do you know that NC tax rates are higher than NYS? It is not all about taxes.

 

[Crusty]

Difficult to have a successful Upstate NY when govt policy and regulation are designed for NYC but applied statewide. Lockheed has been laying off people for a few years now.

Don't know much about this -what do you mean about designed for NYC but applied statewide?

 

[cuseinchina]

25 million illegal immigrants say your numbers are FOS...

http://immigrationcounters.com/

It's tough when reality gets in the way of sensationalized right wing nut job narratives. Same applies to the left wing extremists who won't say ban third trimester abortions. Your number is a total and does not reflect the net balance of immigration since the financial crisis which is what I was referencing. The site you are looking at is garbage and they fill it with disclaimers that make clear that this is just propaganda for people who want to believe our economic woes are caused by brown people who come to take blueberries, pick apples, and oh start small businesses at five times the rate of native born Americans. Our problems run significantly deeper than that. And by the way do you know that the equation for GDP growth includes increases in population?? Immigration increases growth. And immigrants are on public assistance at a higher rate than Americans upon arrival but at 50% lower than native rates after 20 years here. They don't complain about someone taking their job, they get out and do whatever it takes to make life better for their families. Americans should get back to some of that kind of work ethic.

 

[alphaorange]

It's tough when reality gets in the way of sensationalized right wing nut job narratives. Same applies to the left wing extremists who won't say ban third trimester abortions. Your number is a total and does not reflect the net balance of immigration since the financial crisis which is what I was referencing. The site you are looking at is garbage and they fill it with disclaimers that make clear that this is just propaganda for people who want to believe our economic woes are caused by brown people who come to take blueberries, pick apples, and oh start small businesses at five times the rate of native born Americans. Our problems run significantly deeper than that. And by the way do you know that the equation for GDP growth includes increases in population?? Immigration increases growth. And immigrants are on public assistance at a higher rate than Americans upon arrival but at 50% lower than native rates after 20 years here. They don't complain about someone taking their job, they get out and do whatever it takes to make life better for their families. Americans should get back to some of that kind of work ethic.

Head meet sand

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Done a lot of work for lockheed in Owego!!


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[OrangeinBoston]

Head meet sand

Yes, yours has been buried in it for a while. Fluck the Tea Party.

 

[bevosu]

I used to work there and still have quite a few friends that do ... the writing has been on the wall for that plant since LM closed the facility in Eagan, MN ... when the corporation showed the moxie to just shutdown sites this was bound to happen. The corporation will maintain its $1 lease rate as long as they stay above 1500 employees ... really sad considering in its hayday that park had over 6,600 people working there when it was GE. The park itself needs a serious overhaul ... built in the 40s it was designed to look like school buildings in the even that the region was somehow bombed ... lot of history there sad to see it come to this.

GE's presence in the city/area back in the 60's peaked at over 14,000 jobs.

I thought that was a lot until I had occasion to do business with Kodak in Rochester. I heard they had 50,000 employees in the Rochester area.

 

[orangenirvana]

It's sad, but, given they only employ 1700 people, I don't know how much more impact it would have than the other businesses that have left. New Process gear employed over 4,000 before they started laying people off. I believe Carrier employed more than that. I suppose Lockheed could be the nail in the coffin though.

The nail in the coffin? Cripes, some of you drama queens need to calm down.

 

[Crusty]

It's tough when reality gets in the way of sensationalized right wing nut job narratives. Same applies to the left wing extremists who won't say ban third trimester abortions. Your number is a total and does not reflect the net balance of immigration since the financial crisis which is what I was referencing. The site you are looking at is garbage and they fill it with disclaimers that make clear that this is just propaganda for people who want to believe our economic woes are caused by brown people who come to take blueberries, pick apples, and oh start small businesses at five times the rate of native born Americans. Our problems run significantly deeper than that. And by the way do you know that the equation for GDP growth includes increases in population?? Immigration increases growth. And immigrants are on public assistance at a higher rate than Americans upon arrival but at 50% lower than native rates after 20 years here. They don't complain about someone taking their job, they get out and do whatever it takes to make life better for their families. Americans should get back to some of that kind of work ethic.

While I am friendly to the general thrust of your post, GDP does not include population growth per se, only the effect it has on consumption. (GDP includes Consumption + Government Spending + Investment and plus or minus net export/imports.) Population growth, whether through through birth rate or immigration, clearly impacts consumption and, since the US birth rate is low and declining (125th in the world) and will at some point be below the replacement rate, immigration growth seems essential to the growth GDP.

Everyone is aware of this as common sense but as is the case with every immigrant wave, we just don't like the new immigrants as much as we now like the old ones! Just ask the Italian and Irish immigrants.

We need a new wave of immigration but we need to have a sound policy that maximizes the positive impact for the economy and minimizes the negative aspects. I have yet to see a plan that does those things.

With respect to illegal immigrants it has always seemed to me that the obvious solution is to grant permanent work visas without a path to citizenship which many rightfully IMO view as amnesty and a moral hazard. The problem of course is that the Dems push for a path to citizenship becasue they want those votes and the Reps don't want a repeat of Simpson Rizzoli. We need a common sense compromise.

 

[cuseinchina]

While I am friendly to the general thrust of your post, GDP does not include population growth per se, only the effect it has on consumption. (GDP includes Consumption + Government Spending + Investment and plus or minus net export/imports.) Population growth, whether through through birth rate or immigration, clearly impacts consumption and, since the US birth rate is low and declining (125th in the world) and will at some point be below the replacement rate, immigration growth seems essential to the growth GDP.

Everyone is aware of this as common sense but as is the case with every immigrant wave, we just don't like the new immigrants as much as we now like the old ones! Just ask the Italian and Irish immigrants.

We need a new wave of immigration but we need to have a sound policy that maximizes the positive impact for the economy and minimizes the negative aspects. I have yet to see a plan that does those things.

With respect to illegal immigrants it has always seemed to me that the obvious solution is to grant permanent work visas without a path to citizenship which many rightfully IMO view as amnesty and a moral hazard. The problem of course is that the Dems push for a path to citizenship becasue they want those votes and the Reps don't want a repeat of Simpson Rizzoli. We need a common sense compromise.

In the long run economic growth is driven by either increased productivity or increased population. Productivity can come from labor efficiencies and/or capital investment. But population growth is the only other thing that will drive gdp growth when gdp is defined as the aggregate output of an economy.

I agree with the rest of your sentiments for the most part. But it bothers me that republicans (and I sometimes vote republican) use immigration as a wedge issue and fear losing elections if the illegals become legal. In reality Hispanics are a natural republican constituency - they are socially consrvative as a group given Catholicism, they are entrepreneurial and don't like taxes or red tape, and they believe in the value of sweat equity and pulling the bootstraps etc. if republicans would stop fighting thee inevitable future and embrace them, maybe they'd have a hope of winning the presidency in the next twenty years. W knows this, so do Jeb and Mitt. But the rhetoric is at such a stupid level that even Marco Rubio can't fully support comprehensive immigration reform for fear of losing his job. Man talk about winning the battle but losing the war.

 

[Crusty]

In the long run economic growth is driven by either increased productivity or increased population. Productivity can come from labor efficiencies and/or capital investment. But population growth is the only other thing that will drive gdp growth when gdp is defined as the aggregate output of an economy.

I agree with the rest of your sentiments for the most part. But it bothers me that republicans (and I sometimes vote republican) use immigration as a wedge issue and fear losing elections if the illegals become legal. In reality Hispanics are a natural republican constituency - they are socially consrvative as a group given Catholicism, they are entrepreneurial and don't like taxes or red tape, and they believe in the value of sweat equity and pulling the bootstraps etc. if republicans would stop fighting thee inevitable future and embrace them, maybe they'd have a hope of winning the presidency in the next twenty years. W knows this, so do Jeb and Mitt. But the rhetoric is at such a stupid level that even Marco Rubio can't fully support comprehensive immigration reform for fear of losing his job. Man talk about winning the battle but losing the war.

There is one other way and that is to increase net exports like Germany, which has negative birth rate. Most developed countries have low birth rates and population growth and they all want to export but everybody can't be a net exporter!

There are some scary demographics trends out there that in some forecasts can lower GNP by a full percentage point. The aging population and the baby boomer retirees may create a drag on the economy in a couple of ways.

1. Retirees on fixed incomes consume less that those still working full time.
2. Retirees tend to be more skilled than those that replace them creating a drag on productivity.

Even if the birth rate jumped up tomorrow it would not help mitigate these factors for about 20 years.

Increased immigration is the only answer. You are right on the money about the R's. Latinos are far more compatible with the old republican values but so long as there is a TEA Party influence forget it.

 

[Orangetradition44]

Liberals hate America so much. I always find that ironic.

You do know that Americans work MORE hours, with LESS vacation than every other industrialized nation? Oh, and the country's productivity is always near the top of the world.

But you're right... Americans should start working harder.

Americans should get back to some of that kind of work ethic.

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[oldpinepoint]

Liberals hate America so much. I always find that ironic.

You do know that Americans work MORE hours, with LESS vacation than every other industrialized nation? Oh, and the country's productivity is always near the top of the world.

But you're right... Americans should start working harder.





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Productivity is not a measure of working hard or work ethic. Productivity increases can easily be explained through greater efficiencies by improving technologies. I look at the farming industry as an example. Working hard and work ethic are two different things to me. If we had more work ethic we would probably have less Americans claiming disability, unemployment, etc. just my opinion


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[alphaorange]

In the long run economic growth is driven by either increased productivity or increased population. Productivity can come from labor efficiencies and/or capital investment. But population growth is the only other thing that will drive gdp growth when gdp is defined as the aggregate output of an economy.

I agree with the rest of your sentiments for the most part. But it bothers me that republicans (and I sometimes vote republican) use immigration as a wedge issue and fear losing elections if the illegals become legal. In reality Hispanics are a natural republican constituency - they are socially consrvative as a group given Catholicism, they are entrepreneurial and don't like taxes or red tape, and they believe in the value of sweat equity and pulling the bootstraps etc. if republicans would stop fighting thee inevitable future and embrace them, maybe they'd have a hope of winning the presidency in the next twenty years. W knows this, so do Jeb and Mitt. But the rhetoric is at such a stupid level that even Marco Rubio can't fully support comprehensive immigration reform for fear of losing his job. Man talk about winning the battle but losing the war.

Your POV on Hispanics being more Republican than Democrat is not close to being accurate. They pretty much overwhelmingly supported Obama in the last election until they reached the ages of 45.After that is was a toss up. Don't let facts stand in the way of trying to make a point.

 

[sufandu]

The nail in the coffin? Cripes, some of you drama queens need to calm down.

Try reading my whole post. I said compared to the jobs lost from other businesses leaving it wasn't that big of a deal. However, given that it's the largest for profit employer in the area at merely 1700 employees (compared to companies that employed 4,000-6,000+ in the past), it certainly would be bad for an economy that's already on the ropes.

 

[sufandu]

There is one other way and that is to increase net exports like Germany, which has negative birth rate. Most developed countries have low birth rates and population growth and they all want to export but everybody can't be a net exporter!

There are some scary demographics trends out there that in some forecasts can lower GNP by a full percentage point. The aging population and the baby boomer retirees may create a drag on the economy in a couple of ways.

1. Retirees on fixed incomes consume less that those still working full time.
2. Retirees tend to be more skilled than those that replace them creating a drag on productivity.

Even if the birth rate jumped up tomorrow it would not help mitigate these factors for about 20 years.

Increased immigration is the only answer. You are right on the money about the R's. Latinos are far more compatible with the old republican values but so long as there is a TEA Party influence forget it.

I believe the millennial generation is as large as the baby boomers ( some things I've read say it's larger). That would make up for the changes with the baby boomers, given the youngest millennials are in their 30's.

 

[Crusty]

I believe the millennial generation is as large as the baby boomers ( some things I've read say it's larger). That would make up for the changes with the baby boomers, given the youngest millennials are in their 30's.

Tue enough but the millennials are already in the population, they are not new additions. So, at the moment both are consuming but the boomers are starting to retire and reduce their consumption. Secondly, there is a 20 year gap in skill level. Also, the millenials are getting married and forming families later and at a lower rate.

The current birth rate is so low that it is estimated that in 10 to 20 years we will be below the replacement rate - where Germany is at the present time.

 

[sufandu]

Tue enough but the millennials are already in the population, they are not new additions. So, at the moment both are consuming but the boomers are starting to retire and reduce their consumption. Secondly, there is a 20 year gap in skill level. Also, the millenials are getting married and forming families later and at a lower rate.

The current birth rate is so low that it is estimated that in 10 to 20 years we will be below the replacement rate - where Germany is at the present time.

That all makes sense. The millennials ability to consume should continue to increase since the youngest are just now entering college or the workforce. I think a bigger problem is what we're seeing with regards to the availability of jobs. The baby boomers could graduate high school and immediately enter the workforce with a good job that many were able to keep for 30+ years. That type of stability no longer exists, even for people with college degrees that are often necessary to match the income of the baby boomers, and people losing jobs are often replacing them with lower paying alternatives. I was forced into a career change when my employer closed. I went back to school, and with my new degree make approximately 25% less than I was making before. That is a common story now.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Do you know that NC tax rates are higher than NYS? It is not all about taxes.

That is correct...Note the word after the ampersand...NY State is a very tough and expensive place to do business.

Combine the two and it is lethal.

And the exodus of both jobs and people supports that line of thought.