OT - Wilt, Syracuse and 44...

[br801]

Maybe but keep this in kind

1. The year wilt averaged 50 a game. The players voted for mvp. They named Russell.
2. Since he loved that he never fouled out in a game he stopped playing defense when he got his 4th foul.
3. He was traded twice. Russell 0.
4. Russell was 84-58 against wilt in his career. Wilts regular season numbers killed russell. Red auerbach is on record saying russell would let wilt go crazy for three quarters and then smother him in the fourth (knowing all he cared about was stats not winning) their playoff stats are nearly identical. Wilt was not clutch at all he shrunk when it counted.
5. Wilt was 4-5 in game 7's. Russell was 10-0. Don't say russell had a better supporting cast either because wilt played on some loaded teams. Back then there weren't as many teams so teams were much deeper.
6. He lead the league in assists in 68. He also would pass up wide open shots and yell at teammates for missing shots that could have been assists.
7. He constantly fought with coaches and had them fired (Dolph schayes for example)
8. Rick Barry wrote that he was scared of losing and didn't want the ball at the end of games. The other players in the league looked at him as an egotistical ahole.

9. A quote from wilt himself "in a way, I like it better when we lose. It's over and I can look forward to the next game. If we win, it builds up the tension and I start worrying about the next game." whaaat?!?!? No winner would ever say that.


Yes I'm young and never witnessed him. I feel like I'm reading about A-Rod 50 years from now. Great regular season players disliked by his peers that was scared to fail. Consumed by stats and how he looked. Just like A-Rod is no Jeter. Wilt is no bill russell.

oddo033, I'd like to thank you for tonight's seminar on Wilt and NBA history. I can't speak for the others here, but I've certainly learned a lot. And as a baseball fan, I really like how you tied your arguments to that sport as well.

 

[oddo033]

While I don't agree, you seem to want to define a "winner" as someone who wins championships. Chamberlain did win titles, yet you claim "he just wasn't a winner." I must be missing something here.

And as far as Lebron James goes, his story is still being written.

Arod has a championship too. He does have two. My point is someone as dominant as he is said to have been should have been racking up the titles. While his stats show you guys on here are right. Dominant greatest big man ever. His stats also show he was lacking the clutch gene and came up much smaller when it counted. That's why I choose Shaq. That's why I choose russell. He was traded twice...yes, Lakers traded Shaq. They had to make a choice young up and comer or aging veteran. They went with Kobe. Wilt was traded because he was basically a cancer. Struggled to get along with teammates and coaches. He put up great numbers on...and off the court though!

 

[oddo033]

oddo033, I'd like to thank you for tonight's seminar on Wilt and NBA history. I can't speak for the others here, but I've certainly learned a lot. And as a baseball fan, I really like how you tied your arguments to that sport as well.

I'm too tired to tell if you are being sarcastic so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say thanks! Lol


Hey at least we aren't arguing about triches minutes and man vs zone!!!

 

[HoustonCuse]

They changed the rules of the game because of Wilt Chamberlain. They widened the lane, they then put in the offensive goal tending rule, changed inbounding rules (they used to be able to inbound over the backboard) and because he could dunk the ball on foul shots standing still from the foul line without a running start, they changed the rule on foul shots(who else could do that?).

Is that really true? Dunk from the foul line with a standing start? That seems impossible for a human being.

 

[br801]

I'm too tired to tell if you are being sarcastic so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say thanks! Lol


Hey at least we aren't arguing about triches minutes and man vs zone!!!

Thought it was pretty clear I was being sarcastic. Next time I should use an emoticon.

No hard feelings though, a healthy debate is always okay in my book. And this one does beat the usual stuff people argue about on this board.

Just give some thought to how you judge players in team sports. It can't be solely on number of championships won. As bevosu noted earlier, Ted Williams was one of the greatest hitters of all time. He played in one World Series and didn't perform well. That doesn't diminish his greatness at all.

 

[SWC75]

Bob Lanier described Wilt as "The largest human being I have ever seen." And Bob was 6-11 and 270. He siad Wilt "moved me around like I was a tea cup."

The Celtics reinvented the game. Before their dynasty, the game was about geting a star player and feeding him the ball. Nobody ever played that game like Wilt, who scored 100 ppints in a game and 50 per game in a season. No one has ever come close. But the Celtics demonstrated it was better to focus on defense and setitng up the fast break, then hitting the open man. Had they not had their dynasty the Warriors and 76er would have had their own dynasty with wilt. When they- and later the Lakers - started to play that way, they won championships, too. In fact, before the 1996 Bulls, the two winningest NBA teams of all time were the 1967 76ers and the 1972 Lakers who went 68-13 and 69-13, respectively, with Wilt Chamberlain at center.

Wilt was a winner- and the most dominat player of all time. What the Celtics did has nothing to do with Wilt's personal capabilities and nothing to do with what he would have done to Shaquille O'Neal, who had no where near the mobility and athleticism to deal with Wilt Chamberlain.

 

[weepeel]

You really heard wrong. Wilt was phenomenal. Best athlete for a big man his size. Absolutely freakish. He not only scored 100 points in a game but this over 7 foot center even led the NBA in assists another year. He could do it all. He was triple teamed not just in college but the NBA. After Wilt retired he played professional volleyball. Ask Magic Johnson who as a rookie admits Wilt schooled him in practice in LA when Wilt was in his mid-40's. He did play against Kareem - you are obviously very young. The Nets asked him to make a comeback after watching him play pickup when he was 5o.

They changed the rules of the game because of Wilt Chamberlain. They widened the lane, they then put in the offensive goal tending rule, changed inbounding rules (they used to be able to inbound over the backboard) and because he could dunk the ball on foul shots standing still from the foul line without a running start, they changed the rule on foul shots(who else could do that?). He had a 50 inch vertical leap (at 7'1) and was a track and field champion in college and US officials wanted him to try the Olympic decathlon. Oh and he did win 2 NBA championships. Hall-of-Fame center Bob Lanier (6'11 250 lbs -size 22 shoes) was asked about the most memorable moment of his career, Lanier answered: “When Wilt Chamberlain lifted me up and moved me like a coffee cup so he could get favorable position." Later in life when he carried 310 lbs on his 7'1 frame, he bench pressed 500 lbs in his late 40's. You missed something not seeing him play I'll tell you.

Buddy this might just be the dumbest post on an internet forum i have read in my life. Saying Wilt Chamberlain could bench 500 lbs at anytime in his life LOL

 

[690West]

Buddy this might just be the dumbest post on an internet forum i have read in my life. Saying Wilt Chamberlain could bench 500 lbs at anytime in his life LOL

First off, its pretty disrespectful to refer to Cherie as "buddy"

1. People have claimed to witness Wilt press 465 pounds. With arms that long I absolutely believe it. Keep in mind, outside of a competition, all bench press claims are just that, claims.

2. He couldn't dunk from the foul line standing still. The rule change prevented him from dunking with a running start

 

[tipphill]

chaimberlain great player, russell great TEAM player and winner.
my claim to nba fame--- i was at the 1961 allstar game at the war memorial---wow

 

[phillydad]

As much as I loved Wilt growing up in Philly in the 60s, and despised anything Boston, there were times when Wilt came up small in instances Russell never would have.
Apr 1968 - Game 7, Sixers blow a 3-1 Series lead and lose to Boston as Wilt takes 2 shots in the 2nd half. A Russell team would never blow a 3-1 series lead. And I never heard anyone question why Wilt didn't go to work on Willis in game 7 May 1970 vs the Knicks. I realize that his offensive game wasn't the same as years before at this point in his career but he did have 40+ pts in Game 6 and Reed could hardly move.
Russell had a Jordan/Tiger/Bob Gibson refuse to lose mentality. Wilt never did.

 

[Eric15]

People have claimed to witness Wilt press 465 pounds. With arms that long I absolutely believe it.

Long arms are actually a disadvantage on the bench press.

 

[phillydad]

Completely disagree. I am too young to ever have seen him play, but from anything I've read it sounds as if all he ever cared about was his own stats and how he looked. Shaq played against the greatest crop of centers EVER and more then held his own. Russell dominated wilt cause wilt good care less about winning. Shaq played against Ewing, duncan, Robinson, Olajuwon, Yao, howard. Wilt played against a bunch of 6'9" guys. If Rony seikaly played back then he would have been a HOF'er.

No offense oddo033, but you disqualified yourself with "I am too young.." But you are in pretty good company because I have emailed Bill Simmons, born in 1969, the same thing.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I'm not saying that wilt wasn't a great player. He definitely was. I can't get past a modern Arod comparison. He wants to look the best not be the best. He was a physical beast. He just wasn't a winner. When that many of your contemporary teammates and players wrote what they wrote then something is wrong.

Great player. Not great winner! Lebron james is similar as well. Great player. Physically dominant. Something we have never seen. He's scared to fail though so he comes up small when it matters.

Wrong. If you think Wilt Chamberlain was Arod and that Wilt was evil and Russell was a god etc - no use continuing any discussion. You have your mind up depending on whose history you decided to believe and read. The end.

 

[Marsh01]

Buddy this might just be the dumbest post on an internet forum i have read in my life. Saying Wilt Chamberlain could bench 500 lbs at anytime in his life LOL

Well considering she probably knows more about basketball than you forgot I tend to agree with her. Plus it is right on his NBA bio page:

While in college at Kansas, he was recorded as having a 550 pound bench press.

 

[690West]

Long arms are actually a disadvantage on the bench press.

Well what the hell do I know? It sounded good when I wrote it

 

[Eric15]

Well what the hell do I know? It sounded good when I wrote it

Just give me a stone cold betting lock for this weekend and we'll call it even.

 

[Marsh01]

You are basing his successes off of how many titles he won (or didnt win)? THAT is the basis for your argument???? So Will Perdue and Dickey Simpkins are hall of famers then right?

Jesus Chamberlain was a stud and would average 30 and 15 today in a heartbeat.

 

[br801]

You are basing his successes off of how many titles he won (or didnt win)? THAT is the basis for your argument???? So Will Perdue and Dickey Simpkins are hall of famers then right?

Jesus Chamberlain was a stud and would average 30 and 15 today in a heartbeat.

Wilt only choked his way to two titles in in 14 years while averaging 30 and 23 for his career.

He really sucked and would get schooled by all the great post players in today's game.

 

[Marsh01]

Wilt only choked his way to two titles in in 14 years while averaging 30 and 23 for his career.

He really sucked and would get schooled by all the great post players in today's game.

Yea he really sucked didnt he? Classic underachiever

 

[Eric15]

While I'm a younger guy (approaching 30), I'm very knowledgeable about NBA history. Shaq and Wilt are obviously two of the most dominating players in the history of the sport, but in my opinion (and I'm clearly in the minority in this thread), I would take 2000 Shaq over 1962 Wilt by a relatively small margin.

 

[br801]

Yea he really sucked didnt he? Classic underachiever

Soft and not athletic at all. Lucky for him there were no decent big men around in his day.

 

[oddo033]

You are basing his successes off of how many titles he won (or didnt win)? THAT is the basis for your argument???? So Will Perdue and Dickey Simpkins are hall of famers then right?

Jesus Chamberlain was a stud and would average 30 and 15 today in a heartbeat.

You are comparing bench players to stars. C'mon now! Wilt would average a lot of points and rebounds. He also would have gaudy stats in the bed still. Since all he cared about was stats I'm scared to see what some of those 20,000 women look like!

If shaq and wilt change places, Shaq may not average 50 a game but he wins a hell of a lot more. He also rebounds just as much. If wilt played today he would average high 20's and he would shrink when it mattered.

 

[Marsh01]

You are comparing bench players to stars. C'mon now! Wilt would average a lot of points and rebounds. He also would have gaudy stats in the bed still. Since all he cared about was stats I'm scared to see what some of those 20,000 women look like!

If shaq and wilt change places, Shaq may not average 50 a game but he wins a hell of a lot more. He also rebounds just as much. If wilt played today he would average high 20's and he would shrink when it mattered.

Doesnt matter. You are basing your argument on the fact that he didnt win more titles. Bill Wennington then. Horace Grant.

Shrink when it mattered? You lost me.

 

[oddo033]

Doesnt matter. You are basing your argument on the fact that he didnt win more titles. Bill Wennington then. Horace Grant.

Shrink when it mattered? You lost me.

He did! Look at the stats! His per game dropped 8 points per game. His fellow players are quoted as saying he ran away from the ball because he couldn't shoot free throws. He was scared to fail so he couldnt be blamed! These aren't writers opinions. These are opinions of people who competed with and against him.

Shaq couldn't shoot free throws. He wasn't scared to have the ball. He still went at it! You don't hear any modern players say Shaq was scared to win!

Again, if wilt was so great, why was he traded twice??? In the early sixties the Lakers had a chance to trade for him and they had a team vote. The team vote was 9-2 don't trade. Of course he eventually ended up there but that shows you how players and other teams felt about him.

 

[SWC75]

He did! Look at the stats! His per game dropped 8 points per game. His fellow players are quoted as saying he ran away from the ball because he couldn't shoot free throws. He was scared to fail so he couldnt be blamed! These aren't writers opinions. These are opinions of people who competed with and against him.

Shaq couldn't shoot free throws. He wasn't scared to have the ball. He still went at it! You don't hear any modern players say Shaq was scared to win!

Again, if wilt was so great, why was he traded twice??? In the early sixties the Lakers had a chance to trade for him and they had a team vote. The team vote was 9-2 don't trade. Of course he eventually ended up there but that shows you how players and other teams felt about him.

Wow! He was scared of the ball but scored 50 points a game?