Our weakest unit

[OrangeinBoston]

O Line definitely as BK has said we have been waiting FOREVER for this unit to turn the corner and really have not, I would say this is my biggest bitch with Marrone is the O Line play. I just have no idea what this team will do- NO IDEA. Kind of cool really

Absolutely. You can have all the impact players you want. But, if you have no OL, it won't make a difference. People rave about Pugh, but IMHO he is just average. And, he's the best offensive lineman SU has.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Absolutely. You can have all the impact players you want. But, if you have no OL, it won't make a difference. People rave about Pugh, but IMHO he is just average. And, he's the best offensive lineman SU has.

Agreed. We have a very weak line, It's not coaching, IMO. It's a talent issue there. I don't care who the OC, QB, etc is the O line is the biggest issue

 

[billsin01]

Agreed. We have a very weak line, It's not coaching, IMO. It's a talent issue there. I don't care who the OC, QB, etc is the O line is the biggest issue

I agree that OL is the biggest concern, though I'd argue it's a coaching concern anyway you slice it. I think people (no this post specifically) quickly point at talent. Is it true in this case? maybe, but even so, we're now far enough in where we either need to have landed the young talent and be seeing the results or we should have loaded up on JUCO kids to help as a stop gap. It is such a huge part of an offense that you can't, IMO, be saying 'we just don't have the talent here' 4 years in. A little light on talent? Fine. But having not enough talent to put together a pretty average group? Not fine.

My runner up concern remains pass rush. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned so far.

Other thoughts:

I like the secondary but just think secondaries tend to be fairly dependent on pass rush. No one gets excited to see DBs make tackles 7-12 yards downfield all game. Regardless, I really like Lyn as a CB and while I'm not entirely sold on Anderson, I think he can be a fungible part of the secondary. Thomas is a nice player and, in Reddish, Desir, Eskridge, and George you have four pretty intriguing young prospects. Jury's out a bit on Mugwa and I'm not real high on Wilkes, but I think this group is at least intriguing. I'd be surprised if we aren't talking about them at mid-season as at least being talented and improving.

Special Teams and depth. I get why people make the connection here but I'm not sure I buy into it. I mean, how often are special teams the way that less talented teams upset the big boys? Happens all the time. I tend to think it's focus and execution first and I'm not sure Marrone was quite as focused on Specials coming over from the league (perhaps rightfully so) and we're still playing catch-up. I could be wrong, but things like gaping holes in field goal protection for multiple games don't scream talent deficiency to me. And if KOs are such a problem, as they have been for almost DM's entire tenure, at some point you've got to find a way to fix it. This is not an anti-DM rant as much as an argument that talent may be a factor but there are other issues here.

Youth/inexperience won't be an issue at RB. There may be issues in our backfield. I'm not entirely sold on Smith, though I love Gulley (which probably seems strange). Regardless, young kids can play at this position (as well as in the secondary and at WR, etc.). The question will come down to talent and line play. I think we'll have decent talent at this spot.

 

[OrangePA]

special teams and secondary d-backs...

I can't remotely believe special teams could get worse... that said, the secondary really concerns me this year.

Too many athletes in the secondary including the frosh.

We should be okay there.

 

[Geode]

This was a great thread to read. Lots of good thoughts by folks who know a lot more about football schemes than I do, but a disturbing conclusion...

To surmise what started out as an observation that the Offensive line is a weakness was countered with other observed weaknesses from:
Running backs
Wide Receivers
Secondary
Special Teams
and a few folks who tossed in the towel and just flat out conceded we don't know what to expect.

I agree most with the last point but the fact that some knowledge folks have poked at lots of positions is still more than uncomfortable. Seems as though there is unanimous agreement the program is headed in the right direction which is more than we could say for a few years.

We're getting ready to buckle our seat belts and see what this season brings us.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I agree that OL is the biggest concern, though I'd argue it's a coaching concern anyway you slice it. I think people (no this post specifically) quickly point at talent. Is it true in this case? maybe, but even so, we're now far enough in where we either need to have landed the young talent and be seeing the results or we should have loaded up on JUCO kids to help as a stop gap. It is such a huge part of an offense that you can't, IMO, be saying 'we just don't have the talent here' 4 years in. A little light on talent? Fine. But having not enough talent to put together a pretty average group? Not fine.

My runner up concern remains pass rush. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned so far.

Other thoughts:

I like the secondary but just think secondaries tend to be fairly dependent on pass rush. No one gets excited to see DBs make tackles 7-12 yards downfield all game. Regardless, I really like Lyn as a CB and while I'm not entirely sold on Anderson, I think he can be a fungible part of the secondary. Thomas is a nice player and, in Reddish, Desir, Eskridge, and George you have four pretty intriguing young prospects. Jury's out a bit on Mugwa and I'm not real high on Wilkes, but I think this group is at least intriguing. I'd be surprised if we aren't talking about them at mid-season as at least being talented and improving.

Special Teams and depth. I get why people make the connection here but I'm not sure I buy into it. I mean, how often are special teams the way that less talented teams upset the big boys? Happens all the time. I tend to think it's focus and execution first and I'm not sure Marrone was quite as focused on Specials coming over from the league (perhaps rightfully so) and we're still playing catch-up. I could be wrong, but things like gaping holes in field goal protection for multiple games don't scream talent deficiency to me. And if KOs are such a problem, as they have been for almost DM's entire tenure, at some point you've got to find a way to fix it. This is not an anti-DM rant as much as an argument that talent may be a factor but there are other issues here.

Youth/inexperience won't be an issue at RB. There may be issues in our backfield. I'm not entirely sold on Smith, though I love Gulley (which probably seems strange). Regardless, young kids can play at this position (as well as in the secondary and at WR, etc.). The question will come down to talent and line play. I think we'll have decent talent at this spot.

You're a good poster, bills. You should have a much higher like count.

 

[billsin01]

You're a good poster, bills. You should have a much higher like count.

Thanks brutha. I agree

 

[JeremyCuse]

This was a great thread to read. Lots of good thoughts by folks who know a lot more about football schemes than I do, but a disturbing conclusion...

To surmise what started out as an observation that the Offensive line is a weakness was countered with other observed weaknesses from:
Running backs
Wide Receivers
Secondary
Special Teams
and a few folks who tossed in the towel and just flat out conceded we don't know what to expect.

I agree most with the last point but the fact that some knowledge folks have poked at lots of positions is still more than uncomfortable. Seems as though there is unanimous agreement the program is headed in the right direction which is more than we could say for a few years.

We're getting ready to buckle our seat belts and see what this season brings us.

Marrone has done a good job of trying to upgrade the talent across the board but some positions are farther along then others and in some cases players havent yet paned out, cant stay on the field due to injuries, or arent as talented as we had hoped.

The OL has been a concern since Marrone took over but every year its been at least mediocore, which in the Big East you can survive with. Does it need a lot of improvement? Hell Yes but at least the unit is serviceable and has some good moments mixed in with the bad. Again to me the two areas where the Jury is still out in year 4 under Marrone is special teams and offense really as a whole but especially the WR/RB positions. Unfortunately many of the offensive skill players we have brought in under Marrone cant seem to stay healthy and havent been on teh field much ie Smith, Gulley, West, Hale etc etc. I have serious reservations about the WR situation moving forward from a talent and depth standpoint. We desperately need West or Kobena, or one of the two returning Sophmores to take a step forward. (yes I know the one WR redshirted last year). As I posted earlier in this thread, take a look at the WR position in 2013, I dont see a #2 WR on the roster less a #1.

The other major concern is special teams, even putting it nicely they have an absolute disaster save for Krautman. The punting is wildely inconsistent even when we had Rob Long and the Kick and Punt coverage teams have been horrendous giving up huge chunks of yards and really putting our D in a disadvantage almost every series. I am really looking forward to improvement in the special teams dept this year and with kickoffs from either the Freshman or Ross. We had way to many kickoffs sent out of bounds last year, its unacceptable.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone has done a good job of trying to upgrade the talent across the board but some positions are farther along then others and in some cases players havent yet paned out, cant stay on the field due to injuries, or arent as talented as we had hoped.

The OL has been a concern since Marrone took over but every year its been at least mediocore, which in the Big East you can survive with. Does it need a lot of improvement? Hell Yes but at least the unit is serviceable and has some good moments mixed in with the bad. Again to me the two areas where the Jury is still out in year 4 under Marrone is special teams and offense really as a whole but especially the WR/RB positions. Unfortunately many of the offensive skill players we have brought in under Marrone cant seem to stay healthy and havent been on teh field much ie Smith, Gulley, West, Hale etc etc. I have serious reservations about the WR situation moving forward from a talent and depth standpoint. We desperately need West or Kobena, or one of the two returning Sophmores to take a step forward. (yes I know the one WR redshirted last year). As I posted earlier in this thread, take a look at the WR position in 2013, I dont see a #2 WR on the roster less a #1.

The other major concern is special teams, even putting it nicely they have an absolute disaster save for Krautman. The punting is wildely inconsistent even when we had Rob Long and the Kick and Punt coverage teams have been horrendous giving up huge chunks of yards and really putting our D in a disadvantage almost every series. I am really looking forward to improvement in the special teams dept this year and with kickoffs from either the Freshman or Ross. We had way to many kickoffs sent out of bounds last year, its unacceptable.

That is why we need the transfer from ARK so badly, hopefully he makes it here

 

[kcsu]

That is why we need the transfer from ARK so badly, hopefully he makes it here

Agreed but i wouldnt hold my breath. If he doesnt make the grade i would not be surprised to see us go the Juco route

 

[SoBristol]

I agree that OL is the biggest concern, though I'd argue it's a coaching concern anyway you slice it. I think people (no this post specifically) quickly point at talent. Is it true in this case? maybe, but even so, we're now far enough in where we either need to have landed the young talent and be seeing the results or we should have loaded up on JUCO kids to help as a stop gap. It is such a huge part of an offense that you can't, IMO, be saying 'we just don't have the talent here' 4 years in. A little light on talent? Fine. But having not enough talent to put together a pretty average group? Not fine.

My runner up concern remains pass rush. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned so far.

Other thoughts:

I like the secondary but just think secondaries tend to be fairly dependent on pass rush. No one gets excited to see DBs make tackles 7-12 yards downfield all game. Regardless, I really like Lyn as a CB and while I'm not entirely sold on Anderson, I think he can be a fungible part of the secondary. Thomas is a nice player and, in Reddish, Desir, Eskridge, and George you have four pretty intriguing young prospects. Jury's out a bit on Mugwa and I'm not real high on Wilkes, but I think this group is at least intriguing. I'd be surprised if we aren't talking about them at mid-season as at least being talented and improving.

Special Teams and depth. I get why people make the connection here but I'm not sure I buy into it. I mean, how often are special teams the way that less talented teams upset the big boys? Happens all the time. I tend to think it's focus and execution first and I'm not sure Marrone was quite as focused on Specials coming over from the league (perhaps rightfully so) and we're still playing catch-up. I could be wrong, but things like gaping holes in field goal protection for multiple games don't scream talent deficiency to me. And if KOs are such a problem, as they have been for almost DM's entire tenure, at some point you've got to find a way to fix it. This is not an anti-DM rant as much as an argument that talent may be a factor but there are other issues here.

Youth/inexperience won't be an issue at RB. There may be issues in our backfield. I'm not entirely sold on Smith, though I love Gulley (which probably seems strange). Regardless, young kids can play at this position (as well as in the secondary and at WR, etc.). The question will come down to talent and line play. I think we'll have decent talent at this spot.

Good points.
Easy to pick on the OL as a weak unit -- we don't know at this point who will step up at RG or RT, injuries have been issues (Pugh, Hickey, Curtis), and folks aren't sold on the returning starters other than Pugh.
I am not sure what you are saying about not loading up on JUCOs, as Marrone has brought in Alexander and in previous years brought in Hay and Tiller, each of whom started for two years, and Tiller made an all-league team. He filled in with JUCOs, but now has several of his own recruits in the mix (Foy, Trudo, Curtis and Robinson -- Hickey if his knee is rehabbed; Omari Palmer maybe a year away). It comes back to the quality of what we landed (Hay was not the best pass blocker) and recognizing that OL recruits take a couple of years.

As for that pass rush, it will be a problem unless JUCO help (Markus Brewster) saves that unit.

On specials, the coaching approach might be one issue. The coverage teams have been weak because we haven't had the extra talent at key spots -- LBs, WRs, safeties, spare RBs. The guys like David Tyree in past years who get down the field and make tackles. Watch our gunners on punt teams; watch how our KO coverage guys get blocked -- often it comes back to the other team winning the one on one battles.

 

[JeremyCuse]

That is why we need the transfer from ARK so badly, hopefully he makes it here

He is a no go, expect him to be at a D1AA school soon unless theres some miracle change.

 

[Chip]

Too many athletes in the secondary including the frosh.

We should be okay there.

The future of the secondary doesn't worry me at all. Between Henderson and all the young talent, it will soon be a strength. Does worry me for 2012 though. Shamarko didn't look the same last year when he returned from injury, hopefully it's cleared up. Wilkes at FS is a big ? to me, but he's getting the experience nod. And, as mentioned, pass rush may not do them many favors this season.

As IB said, there really is no idea what to expect. And I agree with him, I do think it's kinda cool. But in the same breath, I liked when I knew McNabb was returning, so no matter what, our offense was going to have some really good days, and he was going to be fun to watch improvise.

 

[ImperialOrange]

G G G G G Guard unit! Tiller was a nice player but aside from him it's been rough. He should be the baseline rather than the ceiling at that position.

Aside from that I'd go with DE. Aside from Chan (when relatively healthy) we haven't been able to get anything that remotely resembles a pass rush without bringing LB's or Safeties on the blitz. I think that hangs the secondary out and makes them look like an issue when actually they haven't had any help. Opposing QB's shouldn't have 4+ seconds to sit back and watch their WR's make multiple cuts.

 

[billsin01]

I am not sure what you are saying about not loading up on JUCOs ... recognizing that OL recruits take a couple of years.

On specials, the coaching approach might be one issue. The coverage teams have been weak because we haven't had the extra talent at key spots -- LBs, WRs, safeties, spare RBs. The guys like David Tyree in past years who get down the field and make tackles. Watch our gunners on punt teams; watch how our KO coverage guys get blocked -- often it comes back to the other team winning the one on one battles.

All I meant to suggest with JUCOs was that if we felt our younger guys were farther away than we would have hoped, perhaps we should have hit the juco ranks even harder. I'm not saying this is right as much as I'm saying it's rough to be entering Year 4 and still have fairly slim hopes that the OL unit will be anything more than average or even average, for that matter. More JUCOs may not be the answer, I certainly admit that.

As for specials I agree that talent/depth is part of this. You look like a better special teams coach when JR Johnson is covering punts than you do when you've got a run-of-the-mill WR out there or whatever. I just think that talent/depth is merely part of the answer and, even if you think it's 90% of the problem, it doesn't hurt to recall that we sent ~30 kids packing in the first year and half. Yes, I realize the feeling is that most sucked or weren't high character guys or whatever the line of the day is, but that certainly didn't help our depth very much.

 

[OrangePA]

The future of the secondary doesn't worry me at all. Between Henderson and all the young talent, it will soon be a strength. Does worry me for 2012 though. Shamarko didn't look the same last year when he returned from injury, hopefully it's cleared up. Wilkes at FS is a big ? to me, but he's getting the experience nod. And, as mentioned, pass rush may not do them many favors this season.

As IB said, there really is no idea what to expect. And I agree with him, I do think it's kinda cool. But in the same breath, I liked when I knew McNabb was returning, so no matter what, our offense was going to have some really good days, and he was going to be fun to watch improvise.

Morgan, Anderson, Reddish, Eskridge, Desir, Lyn, Ford, Mungwa, George.

Wow.

There are a lot of young players in that room.

With Henderson, it should be a strength very quickly.

 

[SoBristol]

All I meant to suggest with JUCOs was that if we felt our younger guys were farther away than we would have hoped, perhaps we should have hit the juco ranks even harder. I'm not saying this is right as much as I'm saying it's rough to be entering Year 4 and still have fairly slim hopes that the OL unit will be anything more than average or even average, for that matter. More JUCOs may not be the answer, I certainly admit that.

As for specials I agree that talent/depth is part of this. You look like a better special teams coach when JR Johnson is covering punts than you do when you've got a run-of-the-mill WR out there or whatever. I just think that talent/depth is merely part of the answer and, even if you think it's 90% of the problem, it doesn't hurt to recall that we sent ~30 kids packing in the first year and half. Yes, I realize the feeling is that most sucked or weren't high character guys or whatever the line of the day is, but that certainly didn't help our depth very much.

OK -- fair enough. Folks have a lot of hopes for the young recruits in the secondary who have yet to earn roles, but not much hope that any of Marrone's OL recruits can develop and step up. Despite the fact that we have several candidates with size. I suspect (hope) it is because the OL guys take a little longer to be ready.
Specials -- I would break it down by units. Coverage -- you need some talent to make open field tackles. Run backs -- open field blocking and a returner or two who can make some people miss. At the games, and esp. when you watch coverage or return teams, there has been a stark difference in athletic ability. Our opponents get a free run to the 35 on KO returns; we get stuffed at our 20. Similar on punt returns and punt coverage. Protection for FGs -- maybe more of a coaching issue. I believe (again, hope) we have better talent for specials this year, and the coaching just has to be better.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Morgan, Anderson, Reddish, Eskridge, Desir, Lyn, Ford, Mungwa, George.

Wow.

There are a lot of young players in that room.

With Henderson, it should be a strength very quickly.

DE will be the key to our defense moving forward. If they can get pressure and make a few plays we have guys capable of making the plays in coverage behind them. Passing will be harder so teams will have to try and run. Where will that get them? A meeting with Mr. Bromley, Mr Crume, Mr Boatman, Mr Sloan and/or Mr Goggins at the point of attack and oh BTW Mr Spruill and Mr Lynch are they to clean up w/ #Shamarko waiting for anyone that dares to run his direction.

 

[Crusty]

OK -- fair enough. Folks have a lot of hopes for the young recruits in the secondary who have yet to earn roles, but not much hope that any of Marrone's OL recruits can develop and step up. Despite the fact that we have several candidates with size. I suspect (hope) it is because the OL guys take a little longer to be ready.
Specials -- I would break it down by units. Coverage -- you need some talent to make open field tackles. Run backs -- open field blocking and a returner or two who can make some people miss. At the games, and esp. when you watch coverage or return teams, there has been a stark difference in athletic ability. Our opponents get a free run to the 35 on KO returns; we get stuffed at our 20. Similar on punt returns and punt coverage. Protection for FGs -- maybe more of a coaching issue. I believe (again, hope) we have better talent for specials this year, and the coaching just has to be better.

Isn't the new kicker from Garden City supposed to be a touchback machine? If so, that will certainly help.

 

[rrlbees]

Isn't the new kicker from Garden City supposed to be a touchback machine? If so, that will certainly help.

Let's hope so.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[SUinNYC]

I dont recall our special teams EVER being as bad as they were last year. I remember the days when we were better at special teams than Frank Beamer at vpi. Field position is everything

Yea, but we used to use starters as special teamers. Now we use scrubs. Doug still thinks he's in the NFL.

 

[SoBristol]

Isn't the new kicker from Garden City supposed to be a touchback machine? If so, that will certainly help.

Yes -- and punting for the sidelines will help. Doesn't change some of the fundamentals (how good are the players on our coverage teams? can we block for our returners? can our return guys make the first wave miss?), but good kickers neutralize the difference.