Pace Postgame

[Cusefan0307]

Maybe I misunderstood. But I thought he said there was a lack of effort, and everyone but those 4 guys sucked, and were unlikely to get better. That's how I took the post.

I said at the line meaning foul line.

 

[OrangeFoo]

That first half was nonsense. They didn’t play hard. Didnt respect the opponent and things were said at halftime that needed to be said. They got the message and they came out and played hard the way they should.

Sadiqs ability on the pick and roll to have that explosive of a dunk so quickly was best play of the game. Kiyan is proving he’s the real deal as well. The kid is good.

The offense needs an identity. It’s that simple. Kingz needs to do what he did in the last 10 mins if this team is going to play well. Lots to work on but we see what they are capable of, but that first half was a joke on their part

After the last game I was in "give the coaches a chance" mode... but I see the same systemic issues this year that I saw las year. You are calling it a lack of respect or effort... I see the same lack of any semblance of a help defensive plan for the third year running. The strategy is stay in front of your guy and then if that guy gets past you it's a jail break.

I do agree that more intensity helps because it means that the first guy will get beat less often, but it masks the real problem which is that there is no strategy besides "stay in front of your man". This is year 3... how the effffffff do we not have more than that? When we play against better teams "stay in front of your man" will not work and that's where a good coach actually has a strategy.. we don't and will AGAIN get exposed.

Our offence in year 3 is again a complete iso mess. We got supposedly the most coveted portal point and he looks like dog poo.

The players are definitely much more talented than previous versions... but they don't look like a team. If we don't see massive improvement there is no way this is a tournament team.

 

[Cuse12]

I’ve learned over the years to stop saying “well it’s just early in the season” or “it’s just an exhibition game, they’ll be fine come regular season”. Maybe but you don’t ever want to say those phrases. Good teams are good from the jump. This is TBD and anything can happen. Better athletes for sure. But, that’s a D2 team.

 

[OrangeFoo]

So my earlier post in this thread was based on watching the atrocious first half... After watching the second half my assessment is that anyone who watches that 2nd half and is relieved by it is wearing major league orange blinders glasses.

Three things changed from half one to half two... SU's on ball pressure picked up immensely, SU begin to make it's size advantage count inside and wore Pace down and the ridiculous low percentage iso ball shots that weren't falling in the first half began to fall in the 2nd. So unless White is indeed the next coming of Hakim Warrick (he actually might be) or we are going to be able to run our offense through Kyle, I don't see anything that happened in the 2nd half that makes me believe they can beat teams when they don't have an athletic advantage. The offense was still iso ball and the defence was still "stay in front of your man" because there is no secondary help.

Again props to Autry... the talent is much better. But to beat the dead horse the in game coaching is negative WAR and this is against a D2 team.

FWIW I love White and think he has the most upside of anyone on the team... if he can show any sort of handle and his shooting stroke is legit then he's gonzo after this year. He's a prototypical NBA stretch 4.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Yeah, he was fine. Anthony took the worst shots tonight.
His head is getting all screwed up.
His very strange late FT attempts have me concerned that he can't just be a teammate on a good team, and we are going to see some hero ball from him next game.

What? He’s a frosh that actually brings life to this team. He’s sloppy with his handle if you want to critique. His FT attempts have you concerned? He will make most of them. Predicting hero ball from him? This is strange

 

[Cuse_NYC]

What are you talking about?

Kyle is a solid player. He's a Jae Crowder type. He'll be fine for us. He really got it going in the 2nd half. Maybe not the shock blocker he was advertised to be, but I like his activity and effort once he got it going.

Soare is a big guy, a legit 7 footer. I liked him on defense. He blocked out, he went for blocks, and he hit the offensive boards.

You didn't mention Saddiq, and he was electric when he was out there. He's this team's version of Dennis Rodman or Terrence Roberts. He's going to play a big role for us. Saddiq and Donnie were working off each other, and so were Kyle and Donnie. Nice passing among the big men.

To me, our guards all played really poor defense except Zephyr, and to a lesser extent, Anthony. The other guys allow Pace players to get around the corner on them time after time, and not just on the high screen; it happened down low close to the basket, too, where they just let guys drive past them. To me, it was the guards, not the bigs.

Kyle and Jae Crowder are as similar as me and Carmelo Anthony. How are they similar? Because they both have braids? Sadiq is the brightest spot we have. Zephyr will not play against real teams.

 

[Sherman20]

After the last game I was in "give the coaches a chance" mode... but I see the same systemic issues this year that I saw las year. You are calling it a lack of respect or effort... I see the same lack of any semblance of a help defensive plan for the third year running. The strategy is stay in front of your guy and then if that guy gets past you it's a jail break.

I do agree that more intensity helps because it means that the first guy will get beat less often, but it masks the real problem which is that there is no strategy besides "stay in front of your man". This is year 3... how the effffffff do we not have more than that? When we play against better teams "stay in front of your man" will not work and that's where a good coach actually has a strategy.. we don't and will AGAIN get exposed.

Our offence in year 3 is again a complete iso mess. We got supposedly the most coveted portal point and he looks like dog poo.

The players are definitely much more talented than previous versions... but they don't look like a team. If we don't see massive improvement there is no way this is a tournament team.

You really believe the defensive strategy is to have no help defense at all? I mean, these coaches aren’t great innovators, but I can tell you it’s insane to believe anything like that. The issue is that the players aren’t executing—and that could come from the way in which they’re being coached, both in practice and during the games. Red and the staff don’t seem to have them ready, for whatever reason. I think they’ll improve a lot and there’s a lot of new pieces to integrate, but I worry that Red doesn’t have a winning coaching style. And he’s certainly no innovator. But he’s definitely instructing them to provide help defense. The players just aren’t doing it for whatever reason. Hoping for major improvement and better execution.

 

[RedtheGOB]

So my earlier post in this thread was based on watching the atrocious first half... After watching the second half my assessment is that anyone who watches that 2nd half and is relieved by it is wearing major league orange blinders glasses.

Three things changed from half one to half two... SU's on ball pressure picked up immensely, SU begin to make it's size advantage count inside and wore Pace down and the ridiculous low percentage iso ball shots that weren't falling in the first half began to fall in the 2nd. So unless White is indeed the next coming of Hakim Warrick (he actually might be) or we are going to be able to run our offense through Kyle, I don't see anything that happened in the 2nd half that makes me believe they can beat teams when they don't have an athletic advantage. The offense was still iso ball and the defence was still "stay in front of your man" because there is no secondary help.

Again props to Autry... the talent is much better. But to beat the dead horse the in game coaching is negative WAR and this is against a D2 team.

FWIW I love White and think he has the most upside of anyone on the team... if he can show any sort of handle and his shooting stroke is legit then he's gonzo after this year. He's a prototypical NBA stretch 4.

Agree with everything you said. The 2nd half was not a different brand of basketball. Just more of the same but "more harder" I guess. Devo said a few times the refs were letting them play and we didn't rise to the occasion. Once Pace had 2-3 guys with 4 they played scared and just fell apart in that 7 min stretch of like a 20-1 run. We need to play more like they did. All out early on and if it goes sideways then the bench is there. Our starting 5 played as if well I'm getting 6 mins of run in each quarter then coming out for the bench so just going to treat this as practice.

 

[Niastri]

Honestly, takeaways. Did I overreact in the game thread, probably. We play like crap and Pace looked really good for D2 and we still won by double digits. And we subbed probably differently than we would’ve.

Womack and Zephir combined for 16 minutes... I suspect they get about that many combined the whole regular season. When your two worst players sub in for two of your best players, things are going to get a little ragged out there.

 

[721Comstock]

I’ve learned over the years to stop saying “well it’s just early in the season” or “it’s just an exhibition game, they’ll be fine come regular season”. Maybe but you don’t ever want to say those phrases. Good teams are good from the jump. This is TBD and anything can happen. Better athletes for sure. But, that’s a D2 team.

Wes Johnson waves hi!
LeMoyne.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Effort overall I thought was fine actually. Maybe a couple bad moments early but guys were showing enough energy overall. The rapid fire subs in the first half were annoying and I assume will not be the game plan when these start counting. Certainly looked fine in the effort department in the second half. It is the continued lack of structure on offense that was most concerning for me. Not sure why I expected any different this year since we did not bring in any new coaches. We still have that St Marys guy sitting on the bench doing lord knows what.

The spacing is terrible and guys do not set actual picks for their man. We will do one semi set play thing with some kind of three man weave looking thing in the first 10 seconds and if that doesn't work it is wild west iso ball for the rest of the shot clock. We have seen the same thing for 3 years now. And if you beat your man off the dribble you will be guaranteed going into traffic. Maybe we reveal a couple other solid sets in the season, but fool me once etc etc.

 

[Lukeyloo]

I wonder how much of a negative impact a sleepy, sparse crowd has on players energy levels and willingness to compete. The Dome is such a huge venue that when it has 6k people in it, it feels like 500 in other venues.

Maybe the players were pumped to play their first game in front of their fans in the Dome, a venue that gets talked up so much, only to end up with an environment like the one last night and it effected their play.

I might be reaching and hoping for something to justify the poor performance, and the players should be able to get up for a game regardless, but it's always mentioned that teams feed off of the crowd. This could be the flip side of that coin.

 

[pearl31]

Effort overall I thought was fine actually

nope not at all-
and maybe it's a good thing (if puzzling) as that facet can be easily(?) adjusted

 

[Cuse12]

Wes Johnson waves hi!
LeMoyne.

Fair but that’s the exception not the rule! Lol And we had a proven HOF coach

 

[Niastri]

I agree with other posters that this is the best lineup, based on the first 2 games:

1: George
2. Kingz
3. White
4. Freeman
5. Kyle

I think we need White on the floor, primarily for the rim protection he provides. Donnie is too good to share minutes at PF, so White will need to get his minutes elsewhere. It might be a stretch to ask White to defend the 3 spot, though. And do we have enough shooters on the floor? Probably not. If White or Freeman could play the 5, that would solve A LOT of problems.

IMO, One of these guys is going to need to step up as a reliable 3 and passable D guy:
JJ
Anthony
Betsey
Fennel

White hasn't historically been a good three point shooter. If he remains below average, you are sending out a lineup with 1 great shooter, 3 guys who are below average 3 point shooters, and a guy you never want taking a 3.

That lineup might have trouble scoring, unless one of Freeman, White or Kyle suddenly become Charles Barkley in the post...

On the other hand, if White can shoot 35-37% reliably, that lineup become really viable. And might be our best defensively, with Kingz being a bit of a better defender than Starling.

Regarding potential post play, Freeman was a top 40 recruit a few years ago before flashing his 3 point shooting. After that is when he shot up to a top10 recruit. His post game was very hard to cover, and he had to ability to dribble himself into the post, unlike good post players like Lampkin who are reliant on being fed in the post.

A lot of our season hinges on Freeman developing further and becoming a consistent 3 level threat. His best plays involve dominant post play, 3 point makes, dribble penetration and pick and pop. He really has potential for 20 points per game scoring.

His ceiling is to be literally unstoppable at the NCAA level.

 

[capeorange]

Remember how great Carlos looked last year in the preseason ?

Yeah...he sure could dribble

 

[bballbeadle]

It's early, but there is cause for concern.
I think these guys are good enough that they could make a good showing in Vegas, maybe even steal a win or two.
But they have to play hard for 40 minutes, or they could find themselves on the end of a 15 or 20 point run and get blown out before they knew what hit them.
I think Binghamton is going to be another messy game.
I just hope they make improvements.
I like the high/low action and passing among our bigs.
I want to see more motion without the ball from the guards and wings, more guys moving without the ball, rather than camping on the 3 point line, sitting there covered.
Make it hard to guard you. Easy stuff. Just do it.

 

[bballbeadle]

I wonder how much of a negative impact a sleepy, sparse crowd has on players energy levels and willingness to compete. The Dome is such a huge venue that when it has 6k people in it, it feels like 500 in other venues.

Maybe the players were pumped to play their first game in front of their fans in the Dome, a venue that gets talked up so much, only to end up with an environment like the one last night and it effected their play.

I might be reaching and hoping for something to justify the poor performance, and the players should be able to get up for a game regardless, but it's always mentioned that teams feed off of the crowd. This could be the flip side of that coin.

Red, Freeman and JJ should have warned them. It is ALWAYS like that.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Womack and Zephir combined for 16 minutes... I suspect they get about that many combined the whole regular season. When your two worst players sub in for two of your best players, things are going to get a little ragged out there.

But the during the worst moments (beginning of 2nd half) Womack and Zephyr weren't on the court.

 

[phil77]

I am not going to rip the team apart, but 5 minutes of top-end effort doesn't erase the rest of the game against a good team. Against Pace sure, but not other teams. I saw tons of the same mistakes and bad play last night as I did all last season.

I will wait until after the Houston/Kansas/Tennessee games to form a final opinion on this team and Red's future.

 

[OrangeFoo]

White hasn't historically been a good three point shooter. If he remains below average, you are sending out a lineup with 1 great shooter, 3 guys who are below average 3 point shooters, and a guy you never want taking a 3.

That lineup might have trouble scoring, unless one of Freeman, White or Kyle suddenly become Charles Barkley in the post...

On the other hand, if White can shoot 35-37% reliably, that lineup become really viable. And might be our best defensively, with Kingz being a bit of a better defender than Starling.

Regarding potential post play, Freeman was a top 40 recruit a few years ago before flashing his 3 point shooting. After that is when he shot up to a top10 recruit. His post game was very hard to cover, and he had to ability to dribble himself into the post, unlike good post players like Lampkin who are reliant on being fed in the post.

A lot of our season hinges on Freeman developing further and becoming a consistent 3 level threat. His best plays involve dominant post play, 3 point makes, dribble penetration and pick and pop. He really has potential for 20 points per game scoring.

His ceiling is to be literally unstoppable at the NCAA level.

Love Freeman... he needs to play inside out and stop taking threes unless it's within the flow of the offense. He can dominate on the pick and roll and every single play should start with him setting a pick for the guy bringing the ball up the court. They should also let him live in the high post against zone teams like teams did to us for decades.

We need to do away with the weave where he gets the ball at the 7 o'clock at the 3 point line. He surprisngly fumbled the ball there or made a bad play after getting it there multiple times. His sweet spot seems to be more at 3 o'clock next to the FT line.

 

[sufan59]

At least have fun with it. But seriously we have to get our crap together. I was not worried that we wouldn’t easily win our first 3 games and by a margin that is good for the NET. I am now.

 

[Sbucketball]

At least have fun with it. But seriously we have to get our crap together. I was not worried that we wouldn’t easily win our first 3 games and by a margin that is good for the NET. I am now.

I'm trying not to take much away from exhibitions, but after seeing some of the same things i chalked up to coaching last two years, I could see those being like 10 point wins. I'm more worried about getting humiliated in the 3-game slate of Houston/Kansas/Tennessee in 3 weeks on a national stage. If none of those games are competitive, I'll know what I would do...

 

[wiCuse]

I'm trying to stay positive after seeing Wisconsin struggle with a very average and unathletic D-III team last night. As others have mentioned, we still have glaring issues from past seasons. Zero help side defense, no identity on offense and solid transfers who suddenly look lost. This is on the coaches. We have a solid roster.

I don't understand why Red doesn't want to hold anyone accountable during games. Obvious mistakes are made with no repercussion. The bench is the greatest motivator...

 

[baggerbob]

Fine with that, but he got blown by multiple times.

And JJ better not be playing 30 minutes in any games this year. He isn't a good defender, and shouldn't be the point guard when George is out. He needs to have a talk with Duany about what a senior starting guard should be.
If Duany hadn't been a team first player and unselfish we don't win that championship. But he gave up minutes so Billy and Josh had the time to develope and play.
That's how you become a great team.