Pete Rose passes away at 83

[kirbivore]

any of you seasoned citizens see Pete play for the 1960 Geneva Redlegs?

 

[bpo57]

Well sure these are the very best of the very best and ops+ is just an offensive stat that doesn’t take into account defense at all. But it is normalized for the era in which you played so cross era comparisons are valid.

With regards to Griffey jr specifically , he tarnished his career OPS in his late 30’s years which were average to below average .

OPS is an instructive measure for sure but Rose's job was to get on base and score runs.

Rose finished first in # of times on base - nearly 6,000 - 330 more than #2. He got on base 1,300 more times than A-Rod, for example. Yeah longevity played a role but still... Rose finished 6th all times in runs scored - the guys ahead of him? Henderson, Cobb, Bonds, Aaron and Ruth.

 

[donniesyracuse]

OPS is an instructive measure for sure but Rose's job was to get on base and score runs.

Rose finished first in # of times on base - nearly 6,000 - 330 more than #2. He got on base 1,300 more times than A-Rod, for example. Yeah longevity played a role but still... Rose finished 6th all times in runs scored - the guys ahead of him? Henderson, Cobb, Bonds, Aaron and Ruth.

A-Rod’s career OBP is .380. Rose’s is .375.

 

[Cusefan95]

Rose has a 79.5 career WAR - almost all of it accumulated from 1963-1979. After that, he was mostly an over the hill player accumulating “counting stats”. Those later years really mess up his career averages for things like OPS+ - although not enough to matter in the context we’re discussing here. He was clearly a HOF player based on ‘63-‘79 - but any of the subjective ways he’s described beyond that “like “greatest hitter of all time”) are significantly overrating him.

My main Pete Rose memory was from 4/30/1988 - Sports Channel was playing the Devils playoff game live and showing the Mets game on tape delay. I watched the Devils knock the Capitals from the playoffs, then watched the Mets game and was shocked to see Rose shove Pallone. I wasn’t shocked he got a long suspension.

The only Pete Rose I ever got to see was a washed up guy just hanging on to break the hit record, a terrible manager and a nutjob who shoved an ump. I get that people who saw him in his prime rate him by their personal “eye test”, which appears to be very clouded by time and nostalgia. The numbers don’t support him as greatest of all time on any list worthy of being on.

 

[Cusefan95]

He was a hell of a player. Not the smartest guy in the world. Ignoring the no betting rule for years and assuming he was untouchable was a huge mistake.

I think baseball has to keep the no betting rule. I expect Pete will make the HOF next year.

He paid a huge price so he could gamble in baseball. Hopefully his example helps keep all players from making the same mistake for future generations.

I missed this - I want to place my bet on when Pete Rose makes it into the Hall of Fame on “Not Ever”. I’ll be astonished if he ever does. And I support that.

 

[bpo57]

Rose has a 79.5 career WAR - almost all of it accumulated from 1963-1979. After that, he was mostly an over the hill player accumulating “counting stats”. Those later years really mess up his career averages for things like OPS+ - although not enough to matter in the context we’re discussing here. He was clearly a HOF player based on ‘63-‘79 - but any of the subjective ways he’s described beyond that “like “greatest hitter of all time”) are significantly overrating him.

My main Pete Rose memory was from 4/30/1988 - Sports Channel was playing the Devils playoff game live and showing the Mets game on tape delay. I watched the Devils knock the Capitals from the playoffs, then watched the Mets game and was shocked to see Rose shove Pallone. I wasn’t shocked he got a long suspension.

The only Pete Rose I ever got to see was a washed up guy just hanging on to break the hit record, a terrible manager and a nutjob who shoved an ump. I get that people who saw him in his prime rate him by their personal “eye test”, which appears to be very clouded by time and nostalgia. The numbers don’t support him as greatest of all time on any list worthy of being on.

"almost all of it accumulated from 1963-1979". In 1980 he led the Phillies to their first ever world championship (not a coincidence that they won it all when he showed up) and he had very solid #s in 1981.

I don't know anybody that has pushed the notion that Pete Rose was the "greatest hitter of all time". He posted incredible stats that are attributable to much more than longevity. The guy was also an a-hole but on the field Rose was a winner. He's a first ballot HoFer from a performance standpoint. Anything after that is noise.

 

[donniesyracuse]

He's a first ballot HoFer from a performance standpoint.

I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that.

 

[Cusefan95]

"almost all of it accumulated from 1963-1979". In 1980 he led the Phillies to their first ever world championship (not a coincidence that they won it all when he showed up) and he had very solid #s in 1981.

I don't know anybody that has pushed the notion that Pete Rose was the "greatest hitter of all time". He posted incredible stats that are attributable to much more than longevity. The guy was also an a-hole but on the field Rose was a winner. He's a first ballot HoFer from a performance standpoint. Anything after that is noise.

We’re talking about WAR, chief. In 1980, his WAR was -0.4. You are flat out insane if you think a guy with a negative WAR “led a team to the World Series.” Mike Schmidt had a 8.9 WAR in 1980 - he led the Phillies into the playoffs while an aging Rose hung on for dear life most of that season. A hot streak in the NLCS doesn’t change the fact he was terrible all year.

Rose’s WAR in 1981 was 1.7 - a solid year for sure - but also the only one he had after 1979. So my comment that almost all of his WAR was accumulated between 1963-1979 is factually correct.

It also took me all of thirty seconds to find an article from all the way back from FIVE DAYS AGO where Patrick Reusse from the Minneapolis Star Tribune called Rose the game’s greatest hitter - so your claim nobody says that is demonstrably false.

 

[pfister1]

any of you seasoned citizens see Pete play for the 1960 Geneva Redlegs?

I still have the team picture.....

 

[SUFaninNJ]

I'd definitely put him in the HOF based on his performance on the field. No doubt in my mind about that. The thing that puts me in the "no" category is his admitted affair with a teenager. I know that there are scumbags in the HOF, (see Cobb, Tyrus) but it's difficult for me to get past that.