Class of 2020 PF Noah Collier

[hoopsupstate]

Between Newton, Jackson, and Collier, there is ZERO shooting ability. I can’t believe we can’t find more complete players. They are all good players, but none of them will move SU to the top three in the ACC.

 

[jgeorge322]

Between Newton, Jackson, and Collier, there is ZERO shooting ability. I can’t believe we can’t find more complete players. They are all good players, but none of them will move SU to the top three in the ACC.

We have the perimeter guys. We need bangers and long athletes for the zone.

 

[jordville]

In front of JB, Noah scored 11 points (4/8 FG, 3/5 FT, 0/1 3PT), grabbed 7 boards, and made 1 steal in 24 minutes.

 

[cusefan88]

We have the perimeter guys. We need bangers and long athletes for the zone.

I mean they have Hughes, Buddy, and JG3 as what we can assume as known shooters. That's not enough.

 

[kcsu]

I mean they have Hughes, Buddy, and JG3 as what we can assume as known shooters. That's not enough.

Braz, Guerrier, JC, and both new Bigs can all shoot. I want this kid as i think he is just starting to come onto his own. Really like his upside.

 

[jgeorge322]

I mean they have Hughes, Buddy, and JG3 as what we can assume as known shooters. That's not enough.

I may argue otherwise. And there may be other guys who can shoot—bryson, braswell.

Who do we have inside to keep the d honest?

 

[SUFan44]

A lot of "upside" with all of these guys. Newton, Collier, Jackson.

IMO, Jackson may be the most "plug & play" ready, but even he has some big-time flaws that need to be ironed out.

I'm keeping an open mind but it seems as though we are still a notch or two below where recruiting level was with Hopkins.

Truly a huge, huge loss. Hope the program is able to recover.

 

[cusefan88]

Braz, Guerrier, JC, and both new Bigs can all shoot. I want this kid as i think he is just starting to come onto his own. Really like his upside.

I'm saying proven. Carey shot like 17% last season. Braswell took 2 3PT shots all season. Guerrier maybe but we don't know. Lots of unknowns.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Italy can't come soon enough...

 

[jgeorge322]

I'm saying proven. Carey shot like 17% last season. Braswell took 2 3PT shots all season. Guerrier maybe but we don't know. Lots of unknowns.

Fair enough, but just because unknown to you doesnt mean its not there.

 

[cusefan88]

Fair enough, but just because unknown to you doesnt mean its not there.

Yes for sure. I should say it hasn't been seen yet but we all hope it's there.

 

[ebucklewis]

A lot of "upside" with all of these guys. Newton, Collier, Jackson.

IMO, Jackson may be the most "plug & play" ready, but even he has some big-time flaws that need to be ironed out.

I'm keeping an open mind but it seems as though we are still a notch or two below where recruiting level was with Hopkins.

Truly a huge, huge loss. Hope the program is able to recover.

IMO - there isn't much difference between this group of forwards and the typical Syracuse forward we were used to under Hop. Kris Joseph, CJ Fair, etc..

 

[SUFan44]

IMO - there isn't much difference between this group of forwards and the typical Syracuse forward we were used to under Hop. Kris Joseph, CJ Fair, etc..

That's fair. I don't necessarily disagree with this. But there are two points I'd like to make.

Kris Joseph, who was #50 overall ranking by ESPN (higher than 2 of the 3 players on that list), didn't start until his junior year. Neither did C.J. Fair.

Will that be the same for these guys? Maybe. But we already know the talent we had last year wasn't good enough, IMO, to compete in the ACC. How are you supposed to get better? I guess this means we'll need to take our lumps this year and next year. Again.

Secondly and possibly most importantly, this staff has not shown an ability to develop talent. This staff has been together going on its fourth year now, and I can't name one guy who has demonstratively gotten better like Joseph did, like Fair did, like Christmas eventually did.

All of the guys we are recruiting right now are projectable but not immediate impact guys. And that is worrisome given our recent (lack of) success with player development.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Jackson is definitely immediate impact. We are fine at forward and Shooting guard. Our main issue remains the point and center positions. I do think Edwards will be an upgrade there.

And nobody knows how good we will be next year. Nobody. The entire ACC is basically an unknown outside of Louisville. I do know we actually have guys that have offensive skills outside of putting their head down and going to the basket. That should help.

 

[SUFan44]

Jackson is definitely immediate impact. We are fine at forward and Shooting guard. Our main issue remains the point and center positions. I do think Edwards will be an upgrade there.

And nobody knows how good we will be next year. Nobody. The entire ACC is basically an unknown outside of Louisville. I do know we actually have guys that have offensive skills outside of putting their head down and going to the basket. That should help.

When you say "fine", what do you mean? Fine to be average? Or fine to be an elite team that can vie for a Final Four, where Syracuse has been many times over the last 15-20 years. Here is how I see it on paper.

Forward (Overall ACC Grade - B/B+) - Guerrier is a freshman unknown. You and I have no idea how he will do. I have high hopes, but I also had high hopes for Brissett as a sophomore. Dolezaj is an average ACC player by all metrics. A glue guy, he could make a leap but the injured finger hurts. Hughes is slightly above average offensively in the ACC. He could also make a leap. Thought he was consistently inconsistent last year. Braswell is an unknown and probably not an impact type of guy.

Shooting Guard (B-/C+) - Boeheim had an above average freshman season in ACC play (40.7 3p%). Defensively, he was below average, IMO. He will need to get better if he is going to play 30+ minutes consistently. We lose our best player, who played this position. We add two freshmen who have different skill sets. Also unknowns.

Point Guard (C-/D+) - You say they are our main issues, and I agree. PG - Jalen Carey is a huge unknown and frankly, he needs to be a lot better than last year for us to be successful. After that, who is the backup? Howard Washington? He just had a major medical situation. Goodine? He didn't play PG in high school. Girard? He's a scoring guard, not a PG.

Center (D) - Sidibe - huge health concerns. Edwards - you say he's an upgrade, yet he hasn't played one minute of college basketball. Not sure how you can be so sure. Bol Ajak - also unknown and projects as someone who will not see meaningful minutes right away, as he didn't start over a borderline Top 100 player who is a year younger.

There is a possibility we could be better offensively. I don't know that there's a likelihood we are better defensively. Overall, it could be quite a struggle. Hope I'm proven wrong.

 

[Cusefan0307]

When you say "fine", what do you mean? Fine to be average? Or fine to be an elite team that can vie for a Final Four, where Syracuse has been many times over the last 15-20 years. Here is how I see it on paper.

Forward (Overall ACC Grade - B/B+) - Guerrier is a freshman unknown. You and I have no idea how he will do. I have high hopes, but I also had high hopes for Brissett as a sophomore. Dolezaj is an average ACC player by all metrics. A glue guy, he could make a leap but the injured finger hurts. Hughes is slightly above average offensively in the ACC. He could also make a leap. Thought he was consistently inconsistent last year. Braswell is an unknown and probably not an impact type of guy.

Shooting Guard (B-/C+) - Boeheim had an above average freshman season in ACC play (40.7 3p%). Defensively, he was below average, IMO. He will need to get better if he is going to play 30+ minutes consistently. We lose our best player, who played this position. We add two freshmen who have different skill sets. Also unknowns.

Point Guard (C-/D+) - You say they are our main issues, and I agree. PG - Jalen Carey is a huge unknown and frankly, he needs to be a lot better than last year for us to be successful. After that, who is the backup? Howard Washington? He just had a major medical situation. Goodine? He didn't play PG in high school. Girard? He's a scoring guard, not a PG.

Center (D) - Sidibe - huge health concerns. Edwards - you say he's an upgrade, yet he hasn't played one minute of college basketball. Not sure how you can be so sure. Bol Ajak - also unknown and projects as someone who will not see meaningful minutes right away, as he didn't start over a borderline Top 100 player who is a year younger.

There is a possibility we could be better offensively. I don't know that there's a likelihood we are better defensively. Overall, it could be quite a struggle. Hope I'm proven wrong.

I'm pretty certain Guerrier will be an upgrade to Brissett offensively. Brissett had the worst season offensively of any Syracuse regular ever last year and I am not exaggerating. Rebounding is an unknown, but we are never good there anywhere.. Hughes and Dolezaj will get better.

Battle was our best player, but he wasn't very good IMO. Just looking at metrics we were underwater with him on the court last year in ACC play. His defensive metrics graded out worse than Buddy and he's a worse shooter there. His and Brissetts main skill were head down and to the basket. Buddy can shoot and pass and he looked pretty good in the ACC tournament where we really didn't suffer when Battle was hurt. I think a big portion of the fans focus on that last game he struggled, but that was really his worst game of the year. He should get better and he has the work ethic to. Again I think we have above average starters at 3 positions.

I agree with you the entire season rests on whether or not we are good at PG. Jury is out. If Carey is good we can win 22-25 games. If he struggles we probably win 18-20.

Now back to Collier. Also keep in mind its going to be a small class as we have a large class this year and kids want to play.

 

[SUFan44]

I'm pretty certain Guerrier will be an upgrade to Brissett offensively. Brissett had the worst season offensively of any Syracuse regular ever last year and I am not exaggerating. Rebounding is an unknown, but we are never good there anywhere.. Hughes and Dolezaj will get better.

Battle was our best player, but he wasn't very good IMO. Just looking at metrics we were underwater with him on the court last year in ACC play. His defensive metrics graded out worse than Buddy and he's a worse shooter there. His and Brissetts main skill were head down and to the basket. Buddy can shoot and pass and he looked pretty good in the ACC tournament where we really didn't suffer when Battle was hurt. I think a big portion of the fans focus on that last game he struggled, but that was really his worst game of the year. He should get better and he has the work ethic to. Again I think we have above average starters at 3 positions.

I agree with you the entire season rests on whether or not we are good at PG. Jury is out. If Carey is good we can win 22-25 games. If he struggles we probably win 18-20.

Now back to Collier. Also keep in mind its going to be a small class as we have a large class this year and kids want to play.

This board loves Buddy, and so do I. Hope he shows he can be a top tier ACC player. He needs to get a lot better to be that, and I think the more he plays, the more his limitations in certain areas will show.

Battle played damn near 40 minutes. He was exhausted half the time. It's not fair to judge the two based on percentages and metrics because they didn't play the same minutes and didn't have the same expectations on them when they were in the game.

I think your win totals are likely high for next year. If Carey struggles, we may be in danger of not hitting the .500 mark. I could very well be wrong but the recruiting classes in the ACC are much better than ours on paper.

To your last point -- if our class was smaller, why wouldn't they pinpoint areas where they need massive help (i.e. PG)? Why are they focusing on guys who play wing? I really don't get that strategy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

This board loves Buddy, and so do I. Hope he shows he can be a top tier ACC player. He needs to get a lot better to be that, and I think the more he plays, the more his limitations in certain areas will show.

Battle played damn near 40 minutes. He was exhausted half the time. It's not fair to judge the two based on percentages and metrics because they didn't play the same minutes and didn't have the same expectations on them when they were in the game.

I think your win totals are likely high for next year. If Carey struggles, we may be in danger of not hitting the .500 mark. I could very well be wrong but the recruiting classes in the ACC are much better than ours on paper.

To your last point -- if our class was smaller, why wouldn't they pinpoint areas where they need massive help (i.e. PG)? Why are they focusing on guys who play wing? I really don't get that strategy.

I'm using the eye test. It's not a popular opinion here because he played a lot and was popular, but I don't really know what Battle was good at besides head down and to the basket. That was his entire game.

If we judged win totals based on recruiting classes Virginia never would have won the National Title. The class we bring in this year is pretty comparable to everyone, but Duke and North Carolina.

Your PG argument is a fair one. I think they think Goodine or Girard may be that person down the road. I don't know.

 

[dasher]

A lot of "upside" with all of these guys. Newton, Collier, Jackson.

IMO, Jackson may be the most "plug & play" ready, but even he has some big-time flaws that need to be ironed out.

I'm keeping an open mind but it seems as though we are still a notch or two below where recruiting level was with Hopkins.

Truly a huge, huge loss. Hope the program is able to recover.

The problem isn't the ass't coaches. The problem is JB. First, he doesn't hit the road as hard as other head coaches. G-mac keeps having to go head to head vs the other schools head coaches. Second, we have now reached the twilight zone of kids not being sure jb will be their coach. It is next to impossible to recruit under these situations. If Jb stays another 3 years, it is only going to get worse.

 

[Sherman20]

I mean they have Hughes, Buddy, and JG3 as what we can assume as known shooters. That's not enough.

Goodine too. And Braswell. Those two might be better than JG3. Buddy is an elite shooter.

 

[SUFan44]

The problem isn't the ass't coaches. The problem is JB. First, he doesn't hit the road as hard as other head coaches. G-mac keeps having to go head to head vs the other schools head coaches. Second, we have now reached the twilight zone of kids not being sure jb will be their coach. It is next to impossible to recruit under these situations. If Jb stays another 3 years, it is only going to get worse.

I agree with you. I don’t know what the ceiling of these assistant coaches is because it’s impossible to gauge with the set of circumstances in front of them.

I said it in a prior thread about Wellman leaving without a gig. If I was smarter and didn’t have Orange glasses I might think our program was being run a little haphazardly.

 

[SUFan44]

I'm using the eye test. It's not a popular opinion here because he played a lot and was popular, but I don't really know what Battle was good at besides head down and to the basket. That was his entire game.

If we judged win totals based on recruiting classes Virginia never would have won the National Title. The class we bring in this year is pretty comparable to everyone, but Duke and North Carolina.

Your PG argument is a fair one. I think they think Goodine or Girard may be that person down the road. I don't know.

Based on my eye test, Battle was one of the better players to come through the program over the last 10 years. He had some all-time games including at Duke. The problem is, nobody can sustain any sort of consistency with that usage (outside of a freak like Westbrook). That’s on Boeheim not giving him any sort of help, IMO

 

[Sherman20]

The problem isn't the ass't coaches. The problem is JB. First, he doesn't hit the road as hard as other head coaches. G-mac keeps having to go head to head vs the other schools head coaches. Second, we have now reached the twilight zone of kids not being sure jb will be their coach. It is next to impossible to recruit under these situations. If Jb stays another 3 years, it is only going to get worse.

Are you hearing this from your sources? Yes JB doesn’t hit the road and recruit as much as he used to—and we don’t have a long tenured, charismatic and plugged-in assistant like Hop around to command the same kind of respect. However, why is JB suffering from the age-uncertainty question, when guys only a few years younger like K, Roy Williams, and Leonard freakin Hamilton (now in his 70s) don’t seem to have to deal with these questions and doubts? If Florida State isn’t suffering on the recruiting trail (they seem to be doing better than ever), Syracuse shouldn’t have that age excuse/problem either. That said, JB shouldn’t plan to hang around for years after Buddy graduates. In fact, if he has any sense and is thinking about his legacy, he should get the program humming again and back as a top 25 regular—and then hand over the reigns. You want the program to be handed off when it’s healthy and stable—so you have the best chance of getting a top flight coach to take over.

 

[dasher]

Are you hearing this from your sources? Yes JB doesn’t hit the road and recruit as much as he used to—and we don’t have a long tenured, charismatic and plugged-in assistant like Hop around to command the same kind of respect. However, why is JB suffering from the age-uncertainty question, when guys only a few years younger like K, Roy Williams, and Leonard freakin Hamilton (now in his 70s) don’t seem to have to deal with these questions and doubts? If Florida State isn’t suffering on the recruiting trail (they seem to be doing better than ever), Syracuse shouldn’t have that age excuse/problem either. That said, JB shouldn’t plan to hang around for years after Buddy graduates. In fact, if he has any sense and is thinking about his legacy, he should get the program humming again and back as a top 25 regular—and then hand over the reigns. You want the program to be handed off when it’s healthy and stable—so you have the best chance of getting a top flight coach to take over.

I don't think JB can get the program humming again. Unless we get a littler lucky. Which is possible. Happens all the time. Yes, I am hearing that prospects are confused about Syracuse. And not just prospects.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I think what’s holding us back is the style of play. Our offense has been “offensive” to say the least for the past several years. Top players want to play in the NBA and playing zone doesn’t help them. I think JB’s age has been blown out of proportion.