Class of 2018 PG Jahvon Quinerly (NJ) Transferring from Villanova to Alabama

[Sherman20]

Why is it a load of crap? Most kids know what type of basketball they want to play. If they see SU as playing a style that they don't want to play, then they're better off going somewhere else.

Most kids don't really care much about what defense they play--as long as it helps their stats like steals and blocks, which are plentiful in the zone. 18 year old Kids mostly care about offense. That's been true for generations and it will continue to be true.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Who was on him?

I think he was down with Hop. Ennis was also reassuring him that things would be different with JB gone. All null and void now. :noidea:

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

I understand that. I was saying the fact that it's used as a negative against recruits by saying that if they play zone they won't be marketable as a man defender in the NBA is just ridiculous.

And any outside viewer would realize that if you can do something well that JB is going to showcase that skill. Part of the reason we lose people before they are really great players. They either have one solid skill...like Lydon's jumper, or are a freak athlete...like Jerami Grant.

We could have THE best man-to-man, on ball defender in the country...JB is not coming out of the zone. In fact, Flynn may have very well been just that & Paul Harris wasn't that far behind at the SF spot. We had 2 of the best man defenders, at their position, in the nation & played strictly zone their entire career.

 

[Funk Doc]

We could have THE best man-to-man, on ball defender in the country...JB is not coming out of the zone. In fact, Flynn may have very well been just that & Paul Harris wasn't that far behind at the SF spot. We had 2 of the best man defenders, at their position, in the nation & played strictly zone their entire career.

Oh, I won't argue that at all. Playing strictly zone is a terrible move. There's no way last years team could have been any worse at man than they were at zone, and I can't for the life of me figure out why JB refuses to even try it. I can deal with last years inability to score when we were making threes, but for our defense to be that bad, it was just excruciating to watch.

I guess I should have been more clear. If you have a strong offensive skill, JB will put you in a spot to look good. Tyus is going to be that guy next year. Not only is he going to be great with the ball as much as possible, but we aren't going to have much else outside of TT, so Tyus is going to have to have the ball. Unless he really falls on his face, I can't see any scenario where Tyus isn't in the lottery next year.

 

[jordoo]

Oh, I won't argue that at all. Playing strictly zone is a terrible move.

In the beginning with the right guys who had experience in the zone it worked pretty well. But we haven't had personnel consistency and over time we've become easy to game plan against and scout. Sure if we are down big we might throw out press but other than that they are going to see zone. I have to think most coaches know the major adjustments in it as well. I'm not against the zone at all but as a one and only defense it can be suspect just like any other defense. College is a game where almost every team has plenty of inexperienced rotational players and over all the ball skills pale in comparison to pro ball. It seems like every change in defense leads to an adjustment period for the offensive players. Having only one defense is a disadvantage these days.

 

[721Comstock]

We could have THE best man-to-man, on ball defender in the country...JB is not coming out of the zone. In fact, Flynn may have very well been just that & Paul Harris wasn't that far behind at the SF spot. We had 2 of the best man defenders, at their position, in the nation & played strictly zone their entire career.

Um, JB didn't go to exclusively 100% zone until 2010, with Wes, Andy, et al.

But don't let that stop The Narrative.

 

[jordoo]

Um, JB didn't go to exclusively 100% zone until 2010, with Wes, Andy, et al.

But don't let that stop The Narrative.

Remember that early season comeback against Kansas in Kansas City. We went man and Flynn stole Collins lunch about 3 times in a row. Self had to bench Collins to cool him down. I also remember Harris having a crazy block chasing someone down in transition. The type that Lebron has made famous.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Um, JB didn't go to exclusively 100% zone until 2010, with Wes, Andy, et al.

But don't let that stop The Narrative.

Fair enough. I guess "strictly" wasn't the proper word. Just curious, over the course of Flynn & Harris' career, what would you put the percentage of zone to man at? I remember those years very well & I'd personally estimate we played zone 98% of the time...no hyperbole.

Also, while "The Narrative" can certainly be applied to many opinions on this board, its beginning to take on a life of its own beyond its original intention & is now being used to identify/counter valid, rational points. Multiple recruits have stated that not wanting to play exclusive zone is a negative when considering SU. Quinerly, by all accounts, is a potential game-changing on-ball defender. Hypothetically, if he was to come here (Ik he's not), how much man do you think JB would allow him to play? Why would he not want to showcase one of his best NBA marketable skills?

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Remember that early season comeback against Kansas in Kansas City. We went man and Flynn stole Collins lunch about 3 times in a row. Self had to bench Collins to cool him down. I also remember Harris having a crazy block chasing someone down in transition. The type that Lebron has made famous.

I recall. You'd think, after having success playing man against an elite guard/team to win a game, we would have played it down the stretch of more games. Like the loss to 'Nova in the Dome, for instance.

 

[jordoo]

I recall. You'd think, after having success playing man against an elite guard/team to win a game, we would have played it down the stretch of more games. Like the loss to 'Nova in the Dome, for instance.

It certainly would have worked well that season. And I'm not talking 100% of the time just switch to it when the other team is getting comfortable against the zone.

 

[Funk Doc]

It certainly would have worked well that season. And I'm not talking 100% of the time just switch to it when the other team is getting comfortable against the zone.

Agree!!! Ya know, like sometime after their 10th 3 pointer in the first half! Haha! Sorry, sometimes it feels that way when they keep allowing open 3 after open 3!

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

It certainly would have worked well that season. And I'm not talking 100% of the time just switch to it when the other team is getting comfortable against the zone.

Or against Oklahoma in the tourney when Flynn could've pressured their shaky, turnover-prone frosh PG Willie Warren & Harris could've gotten in a soft Tony Crocker's grill instead of letting him bomb 6 threes. But I guess I'm just further pushing The Narrative

 

[721Comstock]

Or against Oklahoma in the tourney when Flynn could've pressured their shaky, turnover-prone frosh PG Willie Warren & Harris could've gotten in a soft Tony Crocker's grill instead of letting him bomb 6 threes. But I guess I'm just further pushing The Narrative

So, what D do Coach K, Izzo, Ol Roy, Self, etc switch to - when THEY are getting lit up from 3? :noidea:
Because it definitely happens to all teams, now and again.

I guess you just man up against Golden State, and you'll never get 3's rained down on you, huh?

 

[jordoo]

So, what D do Coach K, Izzo, Ol Roy, Self, etc switch to - when THEY are getting lit up from 3? :noidea:
Because it definitely happens to all teams, now and again.

I guess you just man up against Golden State, and you'll never get 3's rained down on you, huh?

You switch it up, give the offense something different to solve. It doesn't always work sometimes teams just go off but it has a better chance of working. K plays zone more and more. Roy does at times with all his length. Even staunch m2m proponent Self has employed the zone to change things up before going back to man.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

So, what D do Coach K, Izzo, Ol Roy, Self, etc switch to - when THEY are getting lit up from 3? :noidea:
Because it definitely happens to all teams, now and again.

I guess you just man up against Golden State, and you'll never get 3's rained down on you, huh?

I'm not sure what point you're making. K, Izzo, & Roy have all switched to a zone D when the opponent dictates it. When we're getting lit up from 3, we stay in zone. If you're playing M2M & getting lit up from 3, you tip your cap. If you're playing zone & getting lit up, traditional basketball thinking suggests that you try going M2M. I understand that JB is playing the percentages, that's his philosophy. When we had Harris & Flynn, 2 potentially elite M2M perimeter defenders, & were getting lit up from 3, we stayed in zone, as I estimated, 98% of the time. Do you not think it was worth at least a shot with our season on the line vs Oklahoma, just as an example...especially after it worked so well earlier in the year against KU?

Bottom line, Quinerly clearly wants to play M2M & showcase that aspect of his game. He's most likely not going to able to do that here, under JB. Not saying that's the sole deciding factor but it should be no surprise that he has no interest in us. If that is considered part of The Narrative, then I must just not understand The Narrative.

 

[LaggyJon]

I'm not sure what point you're making. K, Izzo, & Roy have all switched to a zone D when the opponent dictates it. When we're getting lit up from 3, we stay in zone. If you're playing M2M & getting lit up from 3, you tip your cap. If you're playing zone & getting lit up, traditional basketball thinking suggests that you try going M2M. I understand that JB is playing the percentages, that's his philosophy. When we had Harris & Flynn, 2 potentially elite M2M perimeter defenders, & were getting lit up from 3, we stayed in zone, as I estimated, 98% of the time. Do you not think it was worth at least a shot with our season on the line vs Oklahoma, just as an example...especially after it worked so well earlier in the year against KU?

Bottom line, Quinerly clearly wants to play M2M & showcase that aspect of his game. He's most likely not going to able to do that here, under JB. Not saying that's the sole deciding factor but it should be no surprise that he has no interest in us. If that is considered part of The Narrative, then I must just not understand The Narrative.

You hit on two different things here:

1) The wisdom of playing 100% zone. I agree, this seems to be (at least somewhat) needlessly limiting.

2) Whether any of this would matter to getting Quinerly. I think that's unlikely. JB could start mixing in 25% M2M, but if Quinerly really doesn't want to play zone, it probably wouldn't matter since he can play roughly 100% M2M anywhere else he goes.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm not sure what point you're making. K, Izzo, & Roy have all switched to a zone D when the opponent dictates it. When we're getting lit up from 3, we stay in zone. If you're playing M2M & getting lit up from 3, you tip your cap. If you're playing zone & getting lit up, traditional basketball thinking suggests that you try going M2M. I understand that JB is playing the percentages, that's his philosophy. When we had Harris & Flynn, 2 potentially elite M2M perimeter defenders, & were getting lit up from 3, we stayed in zone, as I estimated, 98% of the time. Do you not think it was worth at least a shot with our season on the line vs Oklahoma, just as an example...especially after it worked so well earlier in the year against KU?

Bottom line, Quinerly clearly wants to play M2M & showcase that aspect of his game. He's most likely not going to able to do that here, under JB. Not saying that's the sole deciding factor but it should be no surprise that he has no interest in us. If that is considered part of The Narrative, then I must just not understand The Narrative.

JB can do nothing wrong to a significant portion of this fanbase.
It's almost as if the last 3 years of regular season mediocrity haven't happened. The stupid narrative push is beyond lazy. JB deserves the criticism he gets. The school has been as loyal to him as he has been to the school.
That doesn't fit the narrative either.

 

[cuseinseattle]

It looks like the recruitment of Quinerly ended the only way it could. A debate of zone vs m-2-m defense.

 

[HSPORANGE]

JB can do nothing wrong to a significant portion of this fanbase.
It's almost as if the last 3 years of regular season mediocrity haven't happened. The stupid narrative push is beyond lazy. JB deserves the criticism he gets. The school has been as loyal to him as he has been to the school.
That doesn't fit the narrative either.

PopcornGroundhog day here with the JB bashers and over the top supporters. You forgot to include your normal Gmac can not recruit/close piece.....

 

[Alsacs]

PopcornGroundhog day here with the JB bashers and over the top supporters. You forgot to include your normal Gmac can not recruit/close piece...

GMac isn't the problem and isn't going anywhere.
I don't want the guy gone. I just want him not on priority guys in this time of transition.

 

[jordoo]

GMac isn't the problem and isn't going anywhere.
I don't want the guy gone. I just want him not on priority guys in this time of transition.

Gmac was simply a symptom of the problems the last cycle not the cause.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Oh, I won't argue that at all. Playing strictly zone is a terrible move. There's no way last years team could have been any worse at man than they were at zone, and I can't for the life of me figure out why JB refuses to even try it. I can deal with last years inability to score when we were making threes, but for our defense to be that bad, it was just excruciating to watch.

I guess I should have been more clear. If you have a strong offensive skill, JB will put you in a spot to look good. Tyus is going to be that guy next year. Not only is he going to be great with the ball as much as possible, but we aren't going to have much else outside of TT, so Tyus is going to have to have the ball. Unless he really falls on his face, I can't see any scenario where Tyus isn't in the lottery next year.

Why then is playing all man-to-man not equally awful?
Year after year SU's defensive stats are among the best in the country.

 

[jordoo]

I often wonder if there is some sort of eppidemic which causes lack of reading comprehension skills.

 

[Alsacs]

SU is a top 10 program all time and has a lot to do with the Zone...but all the hall of fame posters will ridicule a man who's actually in the hall of fame. But those same people are the ones who pushed out the poster that actually had good intel. This site is becoming harder and harder to get good information from. It's becoming a place for fans to complain about JB and his style of play. NEWS FLASH nobody's making you be a fan of the Orange!

You realize we have been all zone exclusively since 2010. That is 7 of 41 years. Or 16% of JBs career here.

Before the all zone we had been to 3 NC games and won a NC.

The zone hasn't been the programs hallmark.

It work when we have proper personnel.

Also your type of post ridiculing the hall of fame posters is laughable. It's been the JB can do no wrong people that have driven good posters like Francis away.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Yeah, true. Obviously, your numbers are just thrown out there, as you intended. However, I think they are probably pretty close to accurate.

This isnt the whole story of our recruiting funk, but it's a key component. What is frustrating is that when we have gone out of that zone fit comfort zone, it's worked pretty damn well (i.e.: Jonny Flynn, Tyler Ennis).

To be fair - that worked out well for them, not necessarily for us. Ennis and Flynn combined to lead their teams to virtually nothing of significance. I am not saying it was their fault, but Boeheim runs a zone system. It is just a fact and him recruiting to the system he runs isn't a weakness. Anybody may particularly like or dislike the system and the type of personnel it requires, but it just is. I do not think we have taken poor skilled guys just to get size but even if we did, those poor skill guys have been able to lead their teams further because when the system works, it is extremely effective.