PS Article: AD Revenue and Football

[Townie72]

I disagree with the statements that most students "don't care" about non-revenue sports but it does not matter. Title IX requires equal "scholarship" spending on men v. women so even if you just have basketball and football teams on the mens side, you will need to spend just as much on the womens side on teams you say the students "don't care" about. That drives it as much as anything.

Actually that’s not what Title IX says at all. That’s the way universities have chosen to interpret it. There are three ways to be compliant. None of these requires equal spending or equal numbers.

 

[nzm136]

Actually that’s not what Title IX says at all. That’s the way universities have chosen to interpret it. There are three ways to be compliant. None of these requires equal spending or equal numbers.

My understanding is that it requires scholarship spending based on the demographics of the student body. So, schools that are female dominated (most schools) have to spend more on women's sports. I think that most schools are technically non-compliant.

 

[Townie72]

My understanding is that it requires scholarship spending based on the demographics of the student body. So, schools that are female dominated (most schools) have to spend more on women's sports. I think that most schools are technically non-compliant.

That’s not what it says, you gotta read it. You’ll be shocked at what it actually requires. If I were not out of the US pecking on an iPad I would google it for you.

Read it. You’ll be shocked.

 

[nzm136]

That’s not what it says, you gotta read it. You’ll be shocked at what it actually requires. If I were not out of the US pecking on an iPad I would google it for you.

Read it. You’ll be shocked.

"Athletics programs are considered educational programs and activities. There are three basic parts of Title IX as it applies to athletics:

1. Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;
2. Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and
3. <omitted due to relevance>"

Title IX Frequently Asked Questions

To be fair, and this may be your point, that's the NCAA's Summary of Title IX, and not the actual text of the statute.

 

[nzm136]

"Colleges and universities must provide opportunity for intercollegiate competition as well as team schedules which equally reflect the competitive abilities of male and female athletes. An institution's compliance in this area may be assessed in any one of the following ways:

• the numbers of men and women participating in intercollegiate athletics are substantially proportionate to their overall enrollment; or
  
  
• where members of one sex are underrepresented in the athletics program, whether the institution can show a continuing practice of program expansion responsive to the developing interests and abilities of that sex; or
  
  
• the present program accommodates the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex."

Equal Opportunity In Intercollegiate Athletics: RequirementsUnder Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972

The above is from the Office of Civil Rights section of the Dept. of Education website. Albeit, and this may be your point, the above is related to the reg that's based in Titke IX. But I don't think that there a practical difference between the reg that's based in Titke IX vs the text of Title IX itself.

 

[Townie72]

Student recruitment tools...SU want kids that are lax, rowers, field hockey types, etc or are drawn from areas that like that stuff.

Your Response captures the University’s view.

B

"Colleges and universities must provide opportunity for intercollegiate competition as well as team schedules which equally reflect the competitive abilities of male and female athletes. An institution's compliance in this area may be assessed in any one of the following ways:

• the numbers of men and women participating in intercollegiate athletics are substantially proportionate to their overall enrollment; or
  
  
• where members of one s e x are underrepresented in the athletics program, whether the institution can show a continuing practice of program expansion responsive to the developing interests and abilities of that s e x; or
  
  
• the present program accommodates the interests and abilities of the underrepresented s e x."

Equal Opportunity In Intercollegiate Athletics: RequirementsUnder Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972

The above is from the Office of Civil Rights section of the Dept. of Education website. Albeit, and this may be your point, the above is related to the reg that's based in Titke IX. But I don't think that there a practical difference between the reg that's based in Titke IX vs the text of Title IX itself.

A school can bein compliancein any of the three ways listed.

Check the third part where it says the law can be satisfied by accommodating the interests and abilities of women. If spending on women’s sports were 10% of men’s but it satisfied the women’s interest in competing things would be fine.

Schools don’t know how to do #3, so they opt for #1.

 

[Townie72]

My understanding is that it requires scholarship spending based on the demographics of the student body. So, schools that are female dominated (most schools) have to spend more on women's sports. I think that most schools are technically non-compliant.

What Title IX has created is an almost bizarre circumstance in which the admissions process for girls at selective schools has been turned on its ear. Schools have added teams and girls have pursued these sports in high school as a away to gain advantage in the admissions process.

A neighbor of ours just told us that their daughter would be choosing between two Ivies. She's very good athlete but it that great of a student. Without the sport hook she would be going to Maryland with her brothers and sisters and not Yale.

Like all attempts by the Govt to legislate results the unintended consequences become the rule not the exception.

 

[RandomGuy]

I found this interesting;

Only 6 schools earn more athletic profit. Syracuse 7th in earnings.

Second to Notre Dame, for the most profitable private school.

 

[NJCuse97]

What Title IX has created is an almost bizarre circumstance in which the admissions process for girls at selective schools has been turned on its ear. Schools have added teams and girls have pursued these sports in high school as a away to gain advantage in the admissions process.

A neighbor of ours just told us that their daughter would be choosing between two Ivies. She's very good athlete but it that great of a student. Without the sport hook she would be going to Maryland with her brothers and sisters and not Yale.

Like all attempts by the Govt to legislate results the unintended consequences become the rule not the exception.

Genuine statement here. I don’t understand how your anecdote is true or applies because Ivy’s don’t award athletic scholarships.

 

[nzm136]

What Title IX has created is an almost bizarre circumstance in which the admissions process for girls at selective schools has been turned on its ear. Schools have added teams and girls have pursued these sports in high school as a away to gain advantage in the admissions process.

A neighbor of ours just told us that their daughter would be choosing between two Ivies. She's very good athlete but it that great of a student. Without the sport hook she would be going to Maryland with her brothers and sisters and not Yale.

Like all attempts by the Govt to legislate results the unintended consequences become the rule not the exception.

Amen to the above. It's a dumb piece of legislation that's outlived it's usefulness.

 

[nzm136]

I found this interesting;

Only 6 schools earn more athletic profit. Syracuse 7th in earnings.

Second to Notre Dame, for the most profitable private school.

View attachment 122209

We claim it's an accounting quirk, but I wonder if that claim is to try to boost donations ("give us money because we're in a dire position" is more compelling than "give us money even though we're floating in cash")

I also wonder if we're using accounting quirks to bring us to balanced. For instance, the academic side is almost certainly charging the athletic dept. the full cost of scholarships (vs the incremental cost of adding those kids to the student body), and the Dome might be rented out to the athletic side at a profit. I think that the academic side also charges a tax on the conference TV deal.

 

[orangenauburn]

We claims it's an accounting quirk, but I wonder if that claim is to try to boost donations ("give us money because we're in a dire position" is more compelling than "give us money even though we're floating in cash")

I also wonder if we're using accounting quirks to bring us to balanced. For instance, the academic side is almost certainly charging the athletic dept. the full cost of scholarships (vs the incremental cost of adding those kids to the student body), and the Dome might be rented out to the athletic side at a profit. I think that the academic side also charges a tax on the conference TV deal.

For the life of me I do not know why the AD is not a separate entity within the university, that keeps its own profits in a separate fund instead of keeping the general university budget funded. Seems backwards to me.

 

[CuseLegacy]

For the life of me I do not know why the AD is not a separate entity within the university, that keeps its own profits in a separate fund instead of keeping the general university budget funded. Seems backwards to me.

Perhaps because the university provides the facilities, academics and housing for the athletes.

 

[orangenauburn]

Perhaps because the university provides the facilities, academics and housing for the athletes.

Those facilities have been paid for. Same with housing.

And those athletes generate revenue the university would not otherwise receive without their services.

Its a quid pro quo.

Any excess funds generated by AD should remain with AD general fund.

 

[xc84]

With regard to Title IX’s participation requirements, a school can meet the standard via three independent tests. The first test is a mathematical safe harbor. If the school offers athletic participation opportunities (number of individual athlete participation slots, not numbers of teams) proportional to the numbers of males and females in the general student body, the school meets the participation standard. If the school does not meet this mathematical test, it may be deemed in compliance if it can (1) demonstrate consistent expansion of opportunities for the underrepresented gender over time or (2) show that the athletic program fully met the interests and abilities of the underrepresented gender. The courts have ruled that “boys are more interested in sports than girls” is not an acceptable defense to lack of equitable participation opportunities.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Those facilities have been paid for. Same with housing.

And those athletes generate revenue the university would not otherwise receive without their services.

Its a quid pro quo.

Any excess funds generated by AD should remain with AD general fund.

Hmm, the way you're framing this, it almost seems like a good time to remind everybody that it would be great if we permitted student athletes to profit from their own name and likeness.

But I'll refrain.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Those facilities have been paid for. Same with housing.

And those athletes generate revenue the university would not otherwise receive without their services.

Its a quid pro quo.

Any excess funds generated by AD should remain with AD general fund.

I thought that the Melo Center, IPF etc weren't totally funded by donations including the dome upgrades and football staff increases etc - who paid for these other than the university when donors don't?

 

[CuseLegacy]

Those facilities have been paid for. Same with housing.

And those athletes generate revenue the university would not otherwise receive without their services.

Its a quid pro quo.

Any excess funds generated by AD should remain with AD general fund.

But the maintenance, insurance, utilities, security, etc for on all those facilities and housing are an ongoing expense.

 

[CuseOnly]

I disagree with the statements that most students "don't care" about non-revenue sports but it does not matter. Title IX requires equal "scholarship" spending on men v. women so even if you just have basketball and football teams on the mens side, you will need to spend just as much on the womens side on teams you say the students "don't care" about. That drives it as much as anything.

Title IX is about scholarships and opportunity, not necessarily about spending on scholarships.

Equal Opportunity In Intercollegiate Athletics: RequirementsUnder Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972

It definitely does not say equal spending.

 

[CuseOnly]

We claim it's an accounting quirk, but I wonder if that claim is to try to boost donations ("give us money because we're in a dire position" is more compelling than "give us money even though we're floating in cash")

I also wonder if we're using accounting quirks to bring us to balanced. For instance, the academic side is almost certainly charging the athletic dept. the full cost of scholarships (vs the incremental cost of adding those kids to the student body), and the Dome might be rented out to the athletic side at a profit. I think that the academic side also charges a tax on the conference TV deal.

Renting the Dome is absolutely what happens, the Dome technically is not a part of the athletic department so is not figured into these numbers, other than the "rent" that the sports teams pay to play there on gamedays. Which I am sure is outrageous but a great hidden way to funnel money to the general fund.

 

[xc84]

Title IX is about scholarships and opportunity, not necessarily about spending on scholarships.

Equal Opportunity In Intercollegiate Athletics: RequirementsUnder Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972

It definitely does not say equal spending.

If you offer a scholarship, that is "spending". It is about equal opportunities and no matter how you boil it down, if you don't offer the same amount of scholarships, you are probably not in compliance...or at least it is hard to prove you are.

The Policy - The Department will examine compliance with this provision of the regulation primarily by means of a financial comparison to determine whether proportionately equal amounts of financial assistance (scholarship aid) are available to men's and women's athletic programs. The Department will measure compliance with this standard by dividing the amounts of aid available for the members of each sex by the numbers of male or female participants in the athletic program and comparing the results. Institutions may be found in compliance if this comparison results in substantially equal amounts or if a resulting disparity can be explained by adjustments to take into account legitimate, nondiscriminatory factors.

 

[CuseOnly]

If you offer a scholarship, that is "spending". It is about equal opportunities and no matter how you boil it down, if you don't offer the same amount of scholarships, you are probably not in compliance...or at least it is hard to prove you are.

The Policy - The Department will examine compliance with this provision of the regulation primarily by means of a financial comparison to determine whether proportionately equal amounts of financial assistance (scholarship aid) are available to men's and women's athletic programs. The Department will measure compliance with this standard by dividing the amounts of aid available for the members of each s e x by the numbers of male or female participants in the athletic program and comparing the results. Institutions may be found in compliance if this comparison results in substantially equal amounts or if a resulting disparity can be explained by adjustments to take into account legitimate, nondiscriminatory factors.

You are looking at ONE example of a policy interpretation provided by the DOE.

The Title IX regulation also permits OCR to consider other factors in determining whether there is equal opportunity. Accordingly, the Policy Interpretation added recruitment of student athletes and provision of support services, since these factors can affect the overall provision of equal opportunity to male and female athletes.

The Policy Interpretation clarifies that institutions must provide equivalent treatment, services, and benefits regarding these factors. The overall equivalence standard allows institutions to achieve their own program goals within the framework of providing equal athletic opportunities. To determine equivalency for men's and women's athletic programs, each of the factors is assessed by comparing the following:

• availability;
  
  
• quality;
  
  
• kind of benefits;
  
  
• kind of opportunities; and
  
  
• kind of treatment.
  

Under this equivalency standard, identical benefits, opportunities, or treatment are not required. For example, locker facilities for a women's team do not have to be the same as for a men's team, as long as the effect of any differences in the overall athletic program are negligible.

It is about opportunity provided, has nothing to do with Equal dollars or Equal scholarships nor Equal facilities. Universities are able to interpret the POLICY any way they choose if they can provide the DOE a reasonable explanation as to why they believe they are in compliance.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Five myths about Title IX

 

[xc84]

You are looking at ONE example of a policy interpretation provided by the DOE.

The Title IX regulation also permits OCR to consider other factors in determining whether there is equal opportunity. Accordingly, the Policy Interpretation added recruitment of student athletes and provision of support services, since these factors can affect the overall provision of equal opportunity to male and female athletes.

The Policy Interpretation clarifies that institutions must provide equivalent treatment, services, and benefits regarding these factors. The overall equivalence standard allows institutions to achieve their own program goals within the framework of providing equal athletic opportunities. To determine equivalency for men's and women's athletic programs, each of the factors is assessed by comparing the following:

• availability;
  
  
• quality;
  
  
• kind of benefits;
  
  
• kind of opportunities; and
  
  
• kind of treatment.

Under this equivalency standard, identical benefits, opportunities, or treatment are not required. For example, locker facilities for a women's team do not have to be the same as for a men's team, as long as the effect of any differences in the overall athletic program are negligible.

It is about opportunity provided, has nothing to do with Equal dollars or Equal scholarships nor Equal facilities. Universities are able to interpret the POLICY any way they choose if they can provide the DOE a reasonable explanation as to why they believe they are in compliance.

Funny thing is I have only talked about equal scholarships. I have said nothing about facilities, locker rooms, or anything but scholarships. Scholarships are the crux of it and the only way you can say they have equal opportunity. That's why universities address it with scholarships.

 

[CuseOnly]

Funny thing is I have only talked about equal scholarships. I have said nothing about facilities, locker rooms, or anything but scholarships. Scholarships are the crux of it and the only way you can say they have equal opportunity. That's why universities address it with scholarships.

Universities address it with scholarships, yes but that is not the only way. And even in that case, they are still unequal which kind of disproves your point. Even though the DOE says everyone is in compliance and nobody is getting dinged for violations at least when it comes to athletics.

Read the article that CherieHoop posted and you will see.