Raining on the parade

[Marsh01]

can't wait for the movie...going for a PG or PG-13 rating?

NC-17. I got Kaiser to play Jim Calhoun. Took a lot of makeup but look at Daniel Day Lewiss portrayal of Lincoln. Anything is possible. I wanted to have Iggy play JB but he insisted they play man during the filming.

 

[rrlbees]

The thing is you could do the same list for pretty much every school so I dont see his point. Christ without even trying I thought of about 5 things to put on the Georgetown list in like 30 seconds.

Not really. I hate Gtown as much as anyone and they had that streak of some real aholes like Page, Graham and Ewing. But I doubt you could touch a list that long.

 

[pearl31]

I stopped reading once I saw the obligatory Syracuse snow reference in the first paragraph. Did I miss anything good?

No, nothing good.

 

[shandeezy7]

Not really. I hate Gtown as much as anyone and they had that streak of some real aholes like Page, Graham and Ewing. But I doubt you could touch a list that long.

You think Syracuse has a longer rap sheet than any other athletic department in the country? Or just a longer one than Georgetown?

 

[billsin01]

certainly very few things in life are that black and white. As has been said in this, and other threads, he basically seems to treat the program like an NBA team; he's not the father of the players and he gives them a lot of leeway to do their own thing (which, when you are talking about 20 year old guys, frequently results in the wrong thing being done). And I respect that, because he isn't their father and they are their own people and they should have the freedom to do things, even if some of them are stupid. I guess I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. There are definitely times I wish there was seemingly a little more discipline in the program, but at the same time, I can't tell you what is going on behind closed doors at practice.

Yeah, I have no idea who this guy is but it's really not that bad an article. In fact, I'm not sure there's a single arguable or objectable thing in that piece, is there?

Here's my take on this -- I think JB is a really colorful character, a great hoops coach and really deserves some credit for not being remotely hypocritical about how he treats his players. He's pretty open and consistent about it. And the author points this out.

That said, his stance is going to open him up to some criticism and, really, why not? I don't really criticize it, but I can see why some folks would. I also agree with the fact that comparing rap sheets with G'town or whomever doesn't do us any favors. If we have five fewer incidents than G'town does it really reflect positively on the citizens we've had in our program vs. theirs? (Here's a hint: the answer is no, it's just kinda said for both schools.)

At the end of the day, you have to make a decision as a sports fan to sort of ignore all the antics and attitudes of your favorite players. If you're lucky enough to get to root for a Tim Wakefield or a similar type of genuinely good guy, awesome. Otherwise, let's face it -- a big number of these guys are jackholes. Accept it and root for your team.

I actually like that JB doesn't babysit -- my only criticism is when something is plopped on his desk and it's a matter of public record, it probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to try and teach the players some measure of accountability. But maybe he feels that's just sort of pointless.

 

[billsin01]

certainly very few things in life are that black and white. As has been said in this, and other threads, he basically seems to treat the program like an NBA team; he's not the father of the players and he gives them a lot of leeway to do their own thing (which, when you are talking about 20 year old guys, frequently results in the wrong thing being done). And I respect that, because he isn't their father and they are their own people and they should have the freedom to do things, even if some of them are stupid. I guess I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. There are definitely times I wish there was seemingly a little more discipline in the program, but at the same time, I can't tell you what is going on behind closed doors at practice.

Yeah, I have no idea who this guy is but it's really not that bad an article. In fact, I'm not sure there's a single arguable or objectable thing in that piece, is there?

Here's my take on this -- I think JB is a really colorful character, a great hoops coach and really deserves some credit for not being remotely hypocritical about how he treats his players. He's pretty open and consistent about it. And the author points this out.

That said, his stance is going to open him up to some criticism and, really, why not? I don't really criticize it, but I can see why some folks would. I also agree with the fact that comparing rap sheets with G'town or whomever doesn't do us any favors. If we have five fewer incidents than G'town does it really reflect positively on the citizens we've had in our program vs. theirs? (Here's a hint: the answer is no, it's just kinda said for both schools.)

At the end of the day, you have to make a decision as a sports fan to sort of ignore all the antics and attitudes of your favorite players. If you're lucky enough to get to root for a Tim Wakefield or a similar type of genuinely good guy, awesome. Otherwise, let's face it -- a big number of these guys are jackholes. Accept it and root for your team.

I actually like that JB doesn't babysit -- my only criticism is when something is plopped on his desk and it's a matter of public record, it probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to try and teach the players some measure of accountability. But maybe he feels that's just sort of pointless.

 

[rrlbees]

You think Syracuse has a longer rap sheet than any other athletic department in the country? Or just a longer one than Georgetown?

Longer than Gtown and most others. No way I can say all because I don't know everyones. I know the Florida schools have just as long and worse schools. But being better than at most 25% of the schools isn't bragging worthy.

 

[Noexcuse]

Not really. I hate Gtown as much as anyone and they had that streak of some real aholes like Page, Graham and Ewing. But I doubt you could touch a list that long.

Idk GTown gets points for "being out front" in reporting the SU player transgressions, but a fairly impressive list of GTown player offenses can be put together as well - the names already mentioned, plus Freeman, Charles Smith, Riley . . . do a simple Google search and the names come up. But who cares, our list speaks for itself, and there's no comfort in saying they or any other team is just as bad/worse.

 

[BonaCuse]

Yes, yes you can. I am not a JB apologist, but other schools have just as long of a rap sheet. I attended St. Bonaventure University (hence the username). So I started following SU basketball in the mid 80s, and then followed SBU basketball in the mid 90s to now. I have only followed St. Bonaventure Basketball for approximated 18 years or so and can come up with a list just as long. Anyone remember JR Bremer who played against SU in the NIT game in 2002 in the Dome, and played in the NBA with the Celtics and Cavs? Was suspended his freshman year for stealing a credit card. Tim Winn, who led St. Bonaventure to their first NCAA tournament appearance in 23 years back in 2000? Suspended his soph year for knocking a kid out cold outside the dining hall. Oh, and the mention how Pace and Devendorf spent a night in jail in New Zealand? A former player from Bonas (aka the Welder) was also arrested that night.

I am not trying to portray my alma mater in a poor light as well. Just to shed light on the fact that this happens literally everywhere. I am talking about A10 basketball for Gawd's sake. Coach's recruit kids that come from a variety of backgrounds, but a lot of very poor backgrounds with just as poor role models. Now combine that with A) new freedom of being on a college campus and 2) the culture of becoming a god-like person on said campus (whether it's SU, an A10 school, wherever) it's a bad mix. Ask a diehard fan of another school who's willing to share their closet full of secrets rationally, and you will find the same.

Not really. I hate Gtown as much as anyone and they had that streak of some real aholes like Page, Graham and Ewing. But I doubt you could touch a list that long.

Not really. I hate Gtown as much as anyone and they had that streak of some real aholes like Page, Graham and Ewing. But I doubt you could touch a list that long.

 

[shandeezy7]

Longer than Gtown and most others. No way I can say all because I don't know everyones. I know the Florida schools have just as long and worse schools. But being better than at most 25% of the schools isn't bragging worthy.

Gotchya. Obviously the list we could produce for SU is nothing to be proud of, but unfortunately this type of crap happens in literally every athletic department across the country. Even at little old Le Moyne there are incidents involving athletes every year. But like you say, comparing rap sheets to other colleges doesn't really do any good for anyone.

 

[RF2044]

Yea, casual hoya is a joke, but its hard to dispute his timeline and actually pretty sobering.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Sort of agree. But I do not resonate with them listing incidents that happen after guys are out of college. I certainly don't think that Charles Smith killing that girl with his van reflects on the Georgetown program [for example], given that the incident happened when he was several years into his pro career.

 

[im4cuse]

Idk GTown gets points for "being out front" in reporting the SU player transgressions, but a fairly impressive list of GTown player offenses can be put together as well - the names already mentioned, plus Freeman, Charles Smith, Riley . . . do a simple Google search and the names come up. But who cares, our list speaks for itself, and there's no comfort in saying they or any other team is just as bad/worse.

My fave is Kenny Brunner, he of samurai sword infamy; so bad Tark also booted him from Fresno. My 40-year problem with Georgetown is not so much the length of their rap sheet (impressive as vehicular homicide is), but their institutional attitude (from JT II and the deflated ball bullstuff) and media hype that they are "better" than they are: that the school's academic integrity prevents them from taking below marginal kids because they can bounce a ball. Take a stroll on their campus. If you see a black kid, chances are he plays hoops. My experience living here is they think (dream) they are Duke. But it's not close. And their modest "fan base" can't deal with it, especially facing the diminished attention they'll get in C7. And by the way, NOBODY played cream puffs like Big John.

 

[NKR1978]

Well the author has all the journalistic credentials - Vassar graduate in Economics, lives in the DC area been a bartender for over 5 years at Tonic at Quigley's Pharmacy. He's also trolls Georgetown's fan blogs for info. Guy is obviously a journalistic giant. Who needs to fact check when your sources are so solid?

Isn't vassar where all the kids too tough for Georgetown go if they can't get into Sarah Lawrence?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[Brooky03]

I saw that list posted on another board and that inspired me to look up all of the stories listed (I was bored) and see how many actually resulted in charges and convictions, or were substantiated (for non-crime related cases). I came up with a total of 8-10 legitimate instances of 'wrongdoing' during the 30+ year span. That's not too bad in my book.

I simply ignored any issues that occurred after players left or graduated because those don't -- or shouldn't -- reflect poorly on the program or Jim B. Also, I didn't count any cases that involved dropped charges, grand jury acquittals, or 'investigations' that didn't result in charges. People can say "where there's smoke, there's fire" but I only care about what was proven under our system of law.

I also realized most of those 8-10 cases resulted in punishments.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Jim Boeheim: Great coach, but at what cost?

Good article.

It treds pretty lightly because it's not the right time to pound Boeheim when he wins his 900th game.
But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically couldn't care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

 

[OttoMets]

great stuff, but if you dont bother to review whats happened at other big time schools over the same period of time then why bother.

Because this is a column about Jim Boeheim, not a coach at another school. It's not a review of discipline in major college basketball programs.

The piece was poorly done (anyone who can't spell "Mother Teresa" properly should not be published - it's the six-letter name of a universally-known person, for crying out loud).

The point, however, was valid.

 

[RF2044]

Good article.

It treds pretty lightly because it's not the right time to pound Boeheim when he wins his 900th game.
But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically could care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

That's just it--I don't agree that he doesn't care about his players at all. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Now, it might be accurate to say that he is more interested in winning that disciplining his players--guy runs a loose ship, no argument there--but that is a completely different argument. What's really pretty sad is that this notion of Boeheim that's being reported is in many respects a convenient truism that people are accepting as fact.

 

[OttoMets]

Boy, if the Casual Hoya only focused on their "esteemed" basketball alumni and what Big John allowed to happen under his watch. I don't recall any former SU players threatening people ninja-style.

Jeff Goodman had to throw water on the story too. The thing people miss is that JB has never claimed himself to be a saint. I guess only us locals and older, wiser SU grads who have been here through his entire tenure get that.

The press trashed Bobby Knight when he passed the "saintly" Dean Smith. If only these nimrods knew what good JB did for his players after they left campus. I doubt many coaches out there could hold a candle to him in that regard.

That is some kind of non-sequitur.

 

[NKR1978]

But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically could care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

If that's true, why did so many guys come back to the Dome at the Midnight Madness in 2011? Why do we have a coaching staff comprised entirely of his former players? Why did Leo Rautins let his son play for Boeheim?

I would like there to be a little more outward discipline or at least some lip service to it, but that's never been his style.

 

[shandeezy7]

Good article.

It treds pretty lightly because it's not the right time to pound Boeheim when he wins his 900th game.
But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically could care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

And the drum beats on with you...

 

[AirForceOrange]

Good article.

It treds pretty lightly because it's not the right time to pound Boeheim when he wins his 900th game.
But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically could care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

I think JB does care about his players...go ahead and say something about one of his players to his face see how much he cares!! I think he just has different coaching/mentoring style than others...he doesn't treat them like kids, but as adults...

 

[br801]

Good article.

It treds pretty lightly because it's not the right time to pound Boeheim when he wins his 900th game.
But it effectively tells the story: tremendously successful coach who basically could care less about his players as long as they can play.

Think about that a moment.
Pretty sad.

I think you meant "couldn't care less," but since you spend so much time bashing the guy, I knew where you were going.

Pretty sad.

 

[jncuse]

Alonzo Mourning
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/20/alonzo-mourning-lawsuit-hit-and-run-crash_n_905050.html

Dikembe Mutombo
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...accused-of-brokering-gold-scam/1#.UNDnfm880f8

http://thebostonjam.com/2011/12/22/meet-the-celtics-newest-450-pound-man-michael-sweetney/
(not a crime but damn he is huge)

Sleepy Floyd
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Sleepy-Floyd-arrested-after-fight-with-wife-3160590.php

David Wingate
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/21/sports/sports-people-pro-basketball-wingate-accused.html

Allen Iverson (keep it to 1)
http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/celebrity_mugshots/iversonallen.htm

Victor Page
http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php...kind-to-victor-page-since-he-left-georgetown/

Patrick Ewing
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92821&page=1#.UNDqsG880f8

 

[Noexcuse]

Alonzo Mourning
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/20/alonzo-mourning-lawsuit-hit-and-run-crash_n_905050.html

Dikembe Mutombo
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...accused-of-brokering-gold-scam/1#.UNDnfm880f8

http://thebostonjam.com/2011/12/22/meet-the-celtics-newest-450-pound-man-michael-sweetney/
(not a crime but damn he is huge)

Sleepy Floyd
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Sleepy-Floyd-arrested-after-fight-with-wife-3160590.php

David Wingate
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/21/sports/sports-people-pro-basketball-wingate-accused.html

Allen Iverson (keep it to 1)
http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/celebrity_mugshots/iversonallen.htm

Victor Page
http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php...kind-to-victor-page-since-he-left-georgetown/

Patrick Ewing
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92821&page=1#.UNDqsG880f8

Wow. JT 1,2,3 AND 4 don't care about their players.

 

[billsin01]

That's just it--I don't agree that he doesn't care about his players at all. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Now, it might be accurate to say that he is more interested in winning that disciplining his players--guy runs a loose ship, no argument there--but that is a completely different argument. What's really pretty sad is that this notion of Boeheim that's being reported is in many respects a convenient truism that people are accepting as fact.

Yeah, I don't see it as not caring. I see it as JB facing up to the reality that most people don't want to: Sports is business. His business is winning basketball games. To win the most games, he needs the best players and those players are spending most of their time in the gym and in AAU tournaments -- not at debate club and studying for AP exams. Also, many of the best hoops players come from terrible areas and, regardless of where they come from, they often aren't the definition of moral and ethical integrity. So these things come with the territory. And JB sees loyalty to his players and supporting them in spite of their transgressions as more important than exacting punitive punishments.

I agree that this stuff happens everywhere, but it's not like that makes SU look better. It's just kind of an ugly picture of the whole system.

That's why it's best to just put your orange gear on and celebrate. Looking too closely often reveals an ugly scene -- just ask JB.