Rak @ the PF...

[newmexicuse]

Most here are of the opinion that Rak will be our starter at PF. Though I share the opinion that he will be our PF starter, I am not of the opinion that he should be our PF starter.

Bottom line for me is that last season Rak played way better both offensively & defensively at the 5.
In fact, I thought he did a very nice job (most of the time) filling for Melo. The logical progression of his game would be better positioning for taking charges and rebounding. He definitety has good shot-blocking instincts. On O he needs to develop some sort of a post move...maybe a baby hook or a short turn-around J, which should be within his skillset capabilities.

Looking at how he played at PF - he had a long ways to go. He had zero O game from that position. He didn't seem to show the instincts on D to cover the perimeter well enough. So that begs the question, if he is, in fact going to start at the 4, how will his game progress to make that happen efficiently. Yes, I think he can learn enough on D to improve his play from last season. If he can master rotations, he certainly has the quickness and shot-blocking ability to be a defensive monster at the four. However, on O...waaaaay to far to go IMHO. He simply lacks the skills at this point in time to be any kind an O threat from the 4, nor can I see that sufficient development of his O skills in the course of one season is possible.

So anyways, assuming that Rak does start at the four, I would see a very incomplete player. He may be a token starter at the four, but I think in the end 2/3 of his minutes will come from backing up the 5 spot.

 

[rrlbees]

IMO, Rak is a 5 in a 4's body.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

How many good minutes did Rak give us last year?

I'm not sure why anyone is counting on him as a lock at the 4 or 5. I think JB is going to play a small lineup a lot with CJ/James/Coleman up front a lot, because he loves guys who can score more than guys who can solely defend.

 

[AlaskaSU]

He will start at the 4, but his minutes are uncertain. If he can handle the 4, CJ will be at the three where he will be a walking mismatch. Our strength hangs on Rak's shoulders. Pf is our potential achilles heel. Other things I will be looking for are DJC's ability to stay on the court and MCW's handle when under pressure.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I think JB and Rak both want the PF transformation to work. For Rak his only real way to the league is if he can master the PF, he just isn't big enough to be a pro center. For SU, if Rak can handle the PF duties he makes for a big SU front line. Hard for many teams to be able to line up that kind of size. He should be able to put to an end this poor rebounding problem from last year.

If Rak can play good D and rebound he will probably get decent minutes at the 4. JB can be more lenient this year if DC2's game is, as we expect, better offensively than what Fab or BMK had to offer. You can get away with one person with a limited O, but not two such players on the court at the same time.

If Rak has to play 2/3 of his minutes at the 5 that is bad for SU. It would mean squeezing BMK out of a lot of minutes and forcing a frosh J Grant into the backup forward role. It would be better for SU if Rak could get between 15-20 mpg at the 4, primarily when DC2 is in there.

 

[moqui]

he is ready to explode, and is going to be the best 4 to wear Orange since Hak, and potentially the best pure 4 since DC

 

[reedny]

I agree with the thread's points, but they don't support Mex's conclusion about playing Rak at center. It is true that, at 220 pounds and raw at both ends of the floor, he wasn't ready for prime time at either the 4 or 5. He had no low post offense, had trouble understanding where he was supposed to be defensively, and got pushed all over the lane.

Center may have been a little easier for him to play because he didn't have to move his feet on defense or fill a complimentary role. But regardless, you don't take an undersized 4/5 and play him at the 5 just because it's easier for him to 'grasp'. And you definately don't need to do this with a 6-10, 280 pound McD'sAA C reporting in less than a month.

Actually, Rak and his fans should be elated that DC2 is coming: DC2 helps Rak (and the rest of the team) in a number of ways. First, at DC2's size, he will take the pressure off Rak defensively ... Coleman can front the opposing center while Rak lays back and blocks shots/grabs rebounds off the ball. Second, DC2 will provide most of the interior offense (better than Fab IMO), allowing Rak to get on the offensive glass and score on putbacks while he develops his own low post game.

If Rak figures 'it' out this year (as some predict), we could be pretty good. We don't need points from him; all we need is for him to develop an understanding of the system and about 20 pounds of muscle so he can rebound and block shots. He's got the tools -- big hands, long arms, good hops and excellent timing -- all he needs is the basketball IQ to be the eraser we've been waiting for. If the light goes on for him, with DC2 providing the inside scoring, and BT/MCW/TC producing perimeter points (or slash and gash), we could be better than last year. If Rak disappoints, we'll be stuck playing CJ out of position, and bringing in JS at SF. This lineup would be fast, but it shortens the bench and perpetuates our rebounding woes.

 

[Madbiker]

I agree with the points you make about Rak at the 4. But you have to remember he was a freshman. It's quite possible that he will learn and improve both as a soph and then again as a junior. There have been others in similar situations before. Hak barely played as a freshman and looked lost when he did. He was hugely improved as a soph. D. Nichols didn't really show anything until he was a junior. I hope Rak makes a leap this upcoming season. If not, most of his minutes will come backing up DC2 and JS will get most of the minutes at the 4 in a smaller lineup.

 

[ORRange]

How many good minutes did Rak give us last year?

I'm not sure why anyone is counting on him as a lock at the 4 or 5. I think JB is going to play a small lineup a lot with CJ/James/Coleman up front a lot, because he loves guys who can score more than guys who can solely defend.

Finally, someone is making sense. Not really sure why we are in the minority here. The only thing Rak proved last year is that he was lost most of the time. Just being honest. Looked like a future Conrad Mcrae not Derrick.

 

[newmexicuse]

he is ready to explode, and is going to be the best 4 to wear Orange since Hak, and potentially the best pure 4 since DC

I certainly hope that you are right & that I am wrong, but methinks you are looking too much at his body & not enough at his overall lack of skills - no dribble, no shot other than a dunk, adequate, but not spectacular rebounder. His only real plus skill at this stage of the game is shot blocking IMHO. He is a lot closer to TRob than he is to Hak. He has shown no skills whatsoever that translate to offensive skills for a PF. He needs to play closer to the hoop, develop some near in scoring prowess & then maybe as a junior move his game further outside.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I would be happy just to see him dribble the ball and not have it stolen, or go off his foot.

 

[reedny]

How many good minutes did Rak give us last year?

I'm not sure why anyone is counting on him as a lock at the 4 or 5. I think JB is going to play a small lineup a lot with CJ/James/Coleman up front a lot, because he loves guys who can score more than guys who can solely defend.

JB likes players who can score and defend -- but with DC2 coming in, he doesn't need Rak to score. All Rak has to do is rebound the basketball and help protect the rim... a role that is actually easier playing off the ball. Even last year, if you replay the games when Rak was pulled, it was usually for defensive lapses. So I don't think Rak plays or sits because of offense, especially this coming season.

 

[Orangezoo]

When we had AO and Rick - there were times where Rick played decent as a 4. Outside of that the general recipe has been using somewhat of a stretch 4 or having two 3's while using the 5 position to set high ball screens and crash the boards. In that system it was difficult for Rak to operate as a 4. CJ was more effective because he could drive to the rim with the excess of wing players and guards on the floor and Fab being a mobile big.

Next year things change. The PG position is now manned by a highly talented kid with great vision and the ability to feed the post. Dajuan gives us a legitimate post threat who has great length and is a monster rebounder. You then add having a true shooter off the bench we have not had since Andy. That should give better spacing. I agree we didnt see Rak give a lot of quality minutes. When he did however he was very effective rebounding from the weak side even while playing the 5 spot. At the 4 - his zone responsibilities are tougher but as he learns he will be a force battling along side DC2 on the boards. I also saw flashes of explosiveness through the year. When on the baseline Rak has a very quick first step and rises quickly. As a 4 this is an important skill. If he can add some consistancy here he could be really effective.

One other item to note is that Coleman is a nimble big with a soft touch. On offense he could post as the 4 while allowing Rak to still be the guy setting the high ball screen and then opening the wings for shooters as teams look to adjust. I think if Rak can learn to defend and rebound from the 4- he can alternate with DC2 on offense and switch to the 5 position playing the HBS and the high post.

 

[OttoMets]

Looking at how he played at PF - he had a long ways to go. He had zero O game from that position. He didn't seem to show the instincts on D to cover the perimeter well enough. So that begs the question, if he is, in fact going to start at the 4, how will his game progress to make that happen efficiently. Yes, I think he can learn enough on D to improve his play from last season. If he can master rotations, he certainly has the quickness and shot-blocking ability to be a defensive monster at the four. However, on O...waaaaay to far to go IMHO. He simply lacks the skills at this point in time to be any kind an O threat from the 4, nor can I see that sufficient development of his O skills in the course of one season is possible.

I don't agree with the claim that Rakeem didn't have any offense. He was, by design, the fifth option 100% of the (limited) time he was on the court. But he showed a nice touch and a proclivity to use the glass - he had a handful of turnaround jumpers from about 10 feet out during the pre-conference portion of the season. And he was, with the exception of a couple missed dunks in the NCAA, pretty composed with the ball in his hands. Far from the usual spastic freshman big who spent the year in the coach's doghouse

As you said, the defense should come to him more naturally with increased game reps. But Rakeem's going to surprise some people who tuned out the positive skills he displayed at times. No SU big since Warrick has had that kind of shooting touch.

 

[OttoMets]

He will start at the 4, but his minutes are uncertain. If he can handle the 4, CJ will be at the three where he will be a walking mismatch. Our strength hangs on Rak's shoulders. Pf is our potential achilles heel. Other things I will be looking for are DJC's ability to stay on the court and MCW's handle when under pressure.

That, and defense. Triche is the only real holdover from the 2010 Defensive Renaissance group; how well have the young guys learned from the departed? The juniors and seniors get it, but we're plugging in Rakeem (who struggled defensively), Carter-Williams (who everyone thinks is the second coming because he's 6'5", but who was also very loudly yanked by Boeheim twice last year for wholesale breakdowns in defensive transition), Cooney (who's never played a minute), and Coleman (who may or may not be in poor shape, but is certainly going to be dropped into the most difficult defensive position for a freshman to learn, as each of his predecessors could attest).

If Carter-Williams plays with the energy and court-smarts that he displays on the offensive end, Rakeem puts it together on the wing (where, let's be honest, the bar is not set very high - we rarely have great wing defenders), Cooney shows some quick feet to match his desire, and Coleman manages to be simply adequate (and patient, because he's in for some yelling after interior breakdowns), they'll be OK.

 

[orangefan13]

IMO, Rak is a 5 in a 4's body.

Right on the money. Thats what he was to finish the season. Hes very athletic but hes a anchor not a mobile defender. Hes a standstill shotblocker, who can take a charge and eats boards at center in the 2-3(something that is tough to do). Dajuan wouldn't add any of those three qualities. I don't get why people want to take that out of the lineup.

And Dajuan isn't the most athletic jumper at center.
If we can get him to boxout the lanes in the zone at PF and jump into crowds we probably would get more rebounds out of him as well as 1.5 more blocks from Rak and more altered shots. At the least we could use DC to boxout the lanes in the zone and let Rak be the board eater maybe.

If we had to we could put Keita as our one big at the 4 and let DC2 and Rak split time otherwise at center. With guys like Southerland, Fair, MCW, Cooney, and Triche its not like we need to have both big men on the floor together to score. We already will have a 5th scorer on the floor in our smaller lineups.

Keita could be a taller Kristoff type with some shotblocking abilities at the four if he ever finds the hands. Hes very mobile and could probably draw a charge and get a weakside shotblock here and there. Would love to see that. I think Keita could have the hands to disrupt some like a poor mans Anthony Davis last year. Hes just got to work on his cardio hard.

If Rak or DC2 were to become a solid powerforward/center combo though, I will be one very happy camper. And for the record come march Rak was a very solid defensive center last year. Above average.

 

[reedny]

IMO, Rak is a 5 in a 4's body.

If we're shooting for perfection here, you could also argue that BT plays like a SF, DC2 has a classic PF's body (at least on a M2M team), and JS is really a 6'8 SG. That gives us:

- a C in a PF's body (DC2), playing center;
- another C in a PF's body (Rak), playing PF;
- a 4 in a SF's body (CJ);
- a SG that thinks he's a 3 (BT); and
- a backup 3 that thinks he's a 2 (JS).

MCW might be the only guy playing his true position? ..

 

[orangefan13]

Except the other guys you mention bring the offense to outscore teams Rak doesn't. They are true scorers and Raks plus right now is he can bring any defensive skill at the five.

Did rak play any four in highschool? I am guessing he doesn't have the luxury of knowing it well.
Rak did play the five in high school and it showed last year. That being said if he doesn't give up with more time maybe he can learn the four but you would be asking him to train differently in the offseason.

 

[Gabjon]

I'm a big believer that our players should play their NBA positions as many minutes as possible. Rak is a NBA 4 so he is a 4 at SU. We are an elite program that prepares our players for the pros. We have received commitments from 3 of the 5 top big men in the pass 3 years. These guys come to college to develop their skills in there chosen profession (basketball) I enjoy watching them develop. Furthermore it is critical for our recruiting that we continue to play and develop our bigs, we will not continue to get elite bigs if they are all fighting over 40mins a game. Keep in mind that the drop off after the top 5 bigs in any class is huge. I am all for starting 2 bigs if it helps us stay away from the projects of the past.

 

[orangefog]

I don't have time to look it up, but I believe he played PF in high school, as he played alongside a kid that went to another big time D1 school.

 

[orangefan13]

I'm a big believer that our players should play their NBA positions as many minutes as possible. Rak is a NBA 4 so he is a 4 at SU. We are an elite program that prepares our players for the pros. We have received commitments from 3 of the 5 top big men in the pass 3 years. These guys come to college to develop their skills in there chosen profession (basketball) I enjoy watching them develop. Furthermore it is critical for our recruiting that we continue to play and develop our bigs, we will not continue to get elite bigs if they are all fighting over 40mins a game. Keep in mind that the drop off after the top 5 bigs in any class is huge. I am all for starting 2 bigs if it helps us stay away from the projects of the past.

Like your post, but also argue that rankings meant less in Raks case.
People missrank all the time and give some kids potential rankings while others get none. Just look at Rautins, Warrick, Paul Harris, or Arinze Onuaku.

Rak got a potential ranking. He already is a way above upside to the team as a center while no upside at PF. I think most would be in agreement thats the main argument here. he really hasn't shown the movement to be a solid PF, I think that is the main thing hindering him from the 4. That and scrappyness.

I Agree 100% with your thought though and at the same time am a big fan of players learning 2 postions at syracuse.
1.I kinda want James to train at some 2 guard for nights when teams are hitting alot of threes. James and MCW could be killer at the top of the zone.
2. MCW to train at some SG becuase triche is more of a 3rd scorer then a 2nd at sg and MCW could prove to be a true scorer.
3. And Keita to try some 4 in the offseason. I think Keita could show the reflexes at PF to be really disruptive if he just works on his lateral sliding. He gets up well off of one foot.

Heck we all thought Dion to be a true SG going into the NBA, but he has some PG skills.
Look at CarMelo he is a 4/5 combo in the NBA. I wouldn't count Fab out as a 4 in the NBA over time either. Wes is playing some 2. Its tough to tell sometimes. Agree 100% though Rak's NBA upside is at PF because of his height but he has to want to add the scrappyness and motor and do it. Hes got a long way to go.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Like your post, but also argue that rankings meant less in Raks case.
People missrank all the time and give some kids potential rankings while others get none. Just look at Rautins, Warrick, Paul Harris, or Arinze Onuaku.

Rak got a potential ranking. He already is a way above upside to the team as a center while no upside at PF. I think most would be in agreement thats the main argument here. he really hasn't shown the movement to be a solid PF, I think that is the main thing hindering him from the 4. That and scrappyness.

I Agree 100% with your thought though and at the same time am a big fan of players learning 2 postions at syracuse.
1.I kinda want James to train at some 2 guard for nights when teams are hitting alot of threes. James and MCW could be killer at the top of the zone.
2. MCW to train at some SG becuase triche is more of a 3rd scorer then a 2nd at sg and MCW could prove to be a true scorer.
3. And Keita to try some 4 in the offseason. I think Keita could show the reflexes at PF to be really disruptive if he just works on his lateral sliding. He gets up well off of one foot.

Heck we all thought Dion to be a true SG going into the NBA, but he has some PG skills.
Look at CarMelo he is a 4/5 combo in the NBA. I wouldn't count Fab out as a 4 in the NBA over time either. Its tough to tell sometimes. Agree 100% though Rak's NBA upside is at PF because of his height but he has to want to add the scrappyness and motor and do it. Hes got a long way to go.

13- Once again I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying. First, you don't think Rak has upside at PF? Is that what you are saying? Because that sounds like crazy talk. Rak oozes potential. And cashing in on that potential is beneficial to Rak and SU. It's weird that you seem to want to bail on having Rak learn the PF and then propose the pure lunacy of having BMK learn the 4. BMK is taller and more uncoordinated than Rak I can think of no circumstance where you have BMK play PF over Rak, CJ, Dirty, or even Grant.

Secondly, why have Dirty play SG? One skill lacking has been his handle. Plus at SG you have BT and Whitehot. You're going to not have either of those two on the floor so you can have Dirty at the 2G? It doesn''t make any sense. Who are you trying to get on the floor that makes it necessary to have Dirty play out of position? J Grant? Rak, who you don't like there? Please not BMK.

And MCW at the 2G is another nonsensical idea. Why? MCW is the primary point guard. The only real backup is BT and he plays with MCW anyway. That is another far fetched idea that makes no sense, and will not be implemented.

This idea that SU is a training ground for the NBA is wrong. It is nice when the two objectives can be lined up, such as with Rak. But otherwise it is expected that the individual will do what is best for SU. They have joined a team, not some farm club.

 

[Gabjon]

Like your post, but also argue that rankings meant less in Raks case.
People missrank all the time and give some kids potential rankings while others get none. Just look at Rautins, Warrick, Paul Harris, or Arinze Onuaku.

Rak got a potential ranking. He already is a way above upside to the team as a center while no upside at PF. I think most would be in agreement thats the main argument here. he really hasn't shown the movement to be a solid PF, I think that is the main thing hindering him from the 4. That and scrappyness.

Players are ranked on potential because they are still kids and you have to project what they will/may become. College is a place where kids go to reach their potential. I don't see the point of discussing what Rak was last year as justification of what he become next year, especially between freshmen and sophomore seasons. A year of development in college for a big is huge! See Fab year 1 to year 2 and is ranking was entirely based on potential since he hadn't been playing the game long. I think Rak will have good year as a PF on the defensive end, on the glass and garbage points which is all we need from him next. When I look at our top 8 MCW, BT, James, Rak, DC2, CJ, Cooney, and BMK I think we will be great again!

 

[Gabjon]

This idea that SU is a training ground for the NBA is wrong. It is nice when the two objectives can be lined up, such as with Rak. But otherwise it is expected that the individual will do what is best for SU. They have joined a team, not some farm club.[/quote]

SU trains players for their NBA positions in practice and drills. Putting a kid at a position he is not ready for in a game is not in the kids best interest, all you are doing is showing scouts what the kid can't do. This why the Melo center is such big recruiting tool, guys get to work on their games as much as they want behind closed doors.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

.

SU trains players for their NBA positions in practice and drills. Putting a kid at a position he is not ready for in a game is not in the kids best interest, all you are doing is showing scouts what the kid can't do. This why the Melo center is such big recruiting tool, guys get to work on their games as much as they want behind closed doors.[/quote]

I'm having difficulty getting your point. Are you suggesting (as NMs like indicates) that you think that for JB to put Rak into the PF position last year (when he wasn't ready), that it was not in Rak's best interest? Do you really think Rak would be better served practicing PF in the Melo center and not playing there during the games? That Rak is exposing himself as a PF fraud, and if he only didn't play someone would draft him?

To be clear, I am hoping Rak makes it as a PF. I like that he is being groomed for this position. It is best for him and SU. IMO, it would be premature to abandon this plan. If the plan succeeds SU will be among the handful of schools that can throw those kind of talented bigs at you. I think Rak's time at PF last year will not be in vain. That it is part of the learning process and we need to be patient to get the fruits of that effort.

To the other Gabjon, the earlier personality, the one who said earlier in this thread "I'm a big believer that our players should play their NBA positions as many minutes as possible". I think that position needs to be tempered as well. For instance, I do not want Dirty trying to learn how to play the 2 here at SU, even if it is his only shot at the league. SU is not a means to an end. If the move does not benefit SU in the short or long term then I do not want to see it done. SU is not a farm team for the pros.