Rak @ the PF...

[br801]

This idea that SU is a training ground for the NBA is wrong. It is nice when the two objectives can be lined up, such as with Rak. But otherwise it is expected that the individual will do what is best for SU. They have joined a team, not some farm club.

Good stuff. I might have to put this in my signature.

 

[orangefan13]

13- Once again I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying. First, you don't think Rak has upside at PF? Is that what you are saying? Because that sounds like crazy talk. Rak oozes potential. And cashing in on that potential is beneficial to Rak and SU. It's weird that you seem to want to bail on having Rak learn the PF and then propose the pure lunacy of having BMK learn the 4. BMK is taller and more uncoordinated than Rak I can think of no circumstance where you have BMK play PF over Rak, CJ, Dirty, or even Grant.

Secondly, why have Dirty play SG? One skill lacking has been his handle. Plus at SG you have BT and Whitehot. You're going to not have either of those two on the floor so you can have Dirty at the 2G? It doesn''t make any sense. Who are you trying to get on the floor that makes it necessary to have Dirty play out of position? J Grant? Rak, who you don't like there? Please not BMK.

And MCW at the 2G is another nonsensical idea. Why? MCW is the primary point guard. The only real backup is BT and he plays with MCW anyway. That is another far fetched idea that makes no sense, and will not be implemented.

This idea that SU is a training ground for the NBA is wrong. It is nice when the two objectives can be lined up, such as with Rak. But otherwise it is expected that the individual will do what is best for SU. They have joined a team, not some farm club.

Fair debate to disagree. Just playing devils advocate.

1. Correct me if I am wrong but Keita has a better second gear then Rak and you need that to weakside block and grab rebounds in the zone's rebounding lanes. Those are the skills we praised guys like Kristoff for at PF. Rak can develop a upside, but did he show groth at PF last year? Correct me if I am wrong but no. Hard to say theres a upside when no groth is obtained.

Maybe its because he feels he can't or maybe he just needs to finally put the time in to extend his motor. He has to want it though and I don't think we have seen signs of that YET. Who knows Maybe a renewed outgoing confession to the fans would help? I remember alot of people hoping Keita to be a chase down weakside shotblocker his freshmen year. Seems like almost everyone has given up on that.

2. CJ, Keita and MCW are our three scrappiest players with dirty slight behind. No offense to Triche or Rak. Scrappyness is one of the most underated qualities at syracuse. About 25% of the guards that come through here are truly scrappy. Some years we have no scrappy guards out there. And both wings in the zone can play a undersized or under strengthed scrappy quality (see Warrick and CJ at PF).

I like the idea of a scrappy lineup because when the opponents offense goes cold its a stone cold killer #1, MCW and Southerland extended on the perimeter with thee height when a opponent is hitting alot of threes to cool them down isn't a bad idea #2 The lineup would be real tall and best of all have lots of motor in it with Rak at center to block shots and eat boards #3. MCW and Southerland in a aggressive defensive lineup should be able to grab every board. The lineup lacks offense but it puts four guys with alot of aggressivness. Can't remember the last time we had a lineup like that without pressing. #4. we argue the ballhandling could be a problem but in the full court CJ and James have a mismatch to the basket if they get out running once the opponents miss at the two and the three. #5. I am tired of sit back in the zone. Would like to see us pressure the heck out of them like Ville does somtimes.

3. How soon are we to forget that MCW torched teams for 40+ in high school. Rather then having MCW come down the court and attack all the time we can run a slower half court offense and have him attack more from the periemer off the pass like KJO did. Or, rather then pound the ball and try to get around his defender like Flynn did, he could a pass it around the perimeter kind of guy which just about any guard or SF can do. Think back to Rautins passing ability. Think back to Coach Gmac. We won our title with two starting SG's on the perimeter in Duany, and Gmac.

We have MCW, Triche, Dajuan, CJ who should be explosive off a quick pass, and Cooney and James who have a quick release. Thats saying a heck of alot. You don't really need a true point guard when you have guys who can attack like that honestly. You can run a swing the ball around the offense more. Especialy with CJ and DC(sealing off) in the high post.

Once again its funny how people were comparing MCW to Jeremy Lamb 2 years ago and now hes a pass first 8-10 ppg player. SF and SG's are usually the two positions you hope to get the most of your scoring from and MCW could be a more consistant threat to catch fire then Triche by March hence more of a score first guy with superior passing skills. Like a taller Jeremy Lin with better passing skills.

Its alright to give up on Jsouth at the 2, and MCW as a Jeremy Lamb type scorer, and Keita as a chasedown weakside shotblocker instead of a anchor, but not ok to say Rak hasn't improved at the four at all?

Agree Syraucse players joined a team first but they come to syracuse instead of other schools with hopes to make the NBA also.

I see your points, just saying mine are also thought out hence the chapter.

 

[Gabjon]

SU trains players for their NBA positions in practice and drills. Putting a kid at a position he is not ready for in a game is not in the kids best interest, all you are doing is showing scouts what the kid can't do. This why the Melo center is such big recruiting tool, guys get to work on their games as much as they want behind closed doors.

I'm having difficulty getting your point. Are you suggesting (as NMs like indicates) that you think that for JB to put Rak into the PF position last year (when he wasn't ready), that it was not in Rak's best interest? Do you really think Rak would be better served practicing PF in the Melo center and not playing there during the games? That Rak is exposing himself as a PF fraud, and if he only didn't play someone would draft him?

To be clear, I am hoping Rak makes it as a PF. I like that he is being groomed for this position. It is best for him and SU. IMO, it would be premature to abandon this plan. If the plan succeeds SU will be among the handful of schools that can throw those kind of talented bigs at you. I think Rak's time at PF last year will not be in vain. That it is part of the learning process and we need to be patient to get the fruits of that effort.

To the other Gabjon, the earlier personality, the one who said earlier in this thread "I'm a big believer that our players should play their NBA positions as many minutes as possible". I think that position needs to be tempered as well. For instance, I do not want Dirty trying to learn how to play the 2 here at SU, even if it is his only shot at the league. SU is not a means to an end. If the move does not benefit SU in the short or long term then I do not want to see it done. SU is not a farm team for the pros.[/quote]

No the comments you are referring to are not about Rak's ability to play the 4 they are in response to the idea that of James playing the two. I essentially was agreeing to your earlier post but trying to be polite about it (not that you need to) and I for one do not believe James will ever be a SG here or in the pros, and just because some fool in Minnesota trying to make Wes into one doesn't anything. By the way all wing players work on there guard skills in practice in every school in the country that doesn't make them guards. There is no other Gabjon it's just the post did not post properly.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

OF13 - let me respond:
1. As to your BMK to the 4 crusade, you are on an island. I don't see it. If you want support for that bizarre concept you should hope that Igor has a speedy recovery.

2. Yes, it is offensive to say that the scrappiest player on the team, BT, is ranked 5th on your list. I assume you are using some French definition of the word scrappy that excludes the concepts of tenacity, on-court focus, and physicality.

3. If you have MCW play the SG, who is running the point? Because it seems like you will have BT and MCW playing together a lot. The roles may switch depending on game situations.

As for your other changes, I think you are underestimating the time and training it takes to learn a new position. Rak is a great example of the effort needed to switch. It's interesting that you want to abandon the Rak switch, but then institute 3 other switches.

 

[orangefan13]

OF13 - let me respond:
1. As to your BMK to the 4 crusade, you are on an island. I don't see it. If you want support for that bizarre concept you should hope that Igor has a speedy recovery.

2. Yes, it is offensive to say that the scrappiest player on the team, BT, is ranked 5th on your list. I assume you are using some French definition of the word scrappy that excludes the concepts of tenacity, on-court focus, and physicality.

3. If you have MCW play the SG, who is running the point? Because it seems like you will have BT and MCW playing together a lot. The roles may switch depending on game situations.

As for your other changes, I think you are underestimating the time and training it takes to learn a new position. Rak is a great example of the effort needed to switch. It's interesting that you want to abandon the Rak switch, but then institute 3 other switches.

1. I gave facts you give what you want to see. Nowhere has rak shown he is more ready to play the 4 then Keita outside a occasional seal off bucket. I gave a fact that Keita has more motor, will take a charge better and jumps in the rebounding/shotblocking lanes better then rak from 45 degree angles 7 feet from the basket. Adding igor to the post doesn't make Rak more ready then Keita to the four(no offense to iggy). Saying raks body is there doesn't mean he has the aggressivness. Sean Williams body was there as much as Fab Melo's by this logic. Josh Wright was a stud by this logic.

2. No Brandon is not the scrappiest. Infact he gets lost in games when he isn't scrappy. CJ, Keita, Southerland and MCW have quicker in your hands for traping and tipping passes and can end up with loose balls alitle better then brandon. Its all in their motor and quick hand and feet movement. What triche does well is understanding how to move in the zone, get one hand up in a extended defense for short periods, rebound well using his body, and take a charge when opponets try to fastbreak. When Brandons reflexes are there though he is always a plus and its very noticable. When he misses close loose balls it also shows.

3. Point is MCW might be a better scorer then triche. A solid second scoring option that Triche hasn't been the last 2 years. The starting lineup started slow because triche wasn't a solid second option 2/3 of the time this year and Dion was.

And I added how Fair, Triche, DC2 and MCW will show they create off the dribble recieing a quick pass. All four of those guys can be in the game together. On top of that Cooney and South have a quick trigger when receiving a pass. Therefore we should be a good passing team with good offense skills. Two years ago we lacked the offensive skills in a passsing offense. Last year we depended on iso more. This year we should be able to move the ball quickly to make things happen.

Fair enough good debate. I think I have broke down my post as far as I can.
I hope Rak jumps on the train and develops the motor but I don't know if its his mindset. He seems very relaxed and laid back. Dragging the Jackson/Kristoff/Warrick out of him could be tough and he will have to want to first. By all means he has to fall in love with conditioning this offseason to do so like Dion did. If he does I admit it I will be wowed and eat the sweetest tasting crow in quite some time.

 

[Gabjon]

OF13
Rak suffered on defense learning the slides in the zone that should be much improved this year. We lead the nation in steals most if not all of the year so we didn't exactly "sit back in the zone". We run a lot of pick and role basketball with some weak side action, you need a PG to running that system. You are literally suggesting we change the offense and the defense the year after we were 34-3 and if we didn't lose the worse officiated game in college basketball history we would have made the final 4! If it ain't broke...

 

[orangefan13]

If it aint broke don't fix it. Gmac point guard 02-03 orange. And we had no true scoring center.

Sure you change it based on what you have. Should we have put up as many threes as say the 02-03 team or as Rautins and Devendorf did a few years back?
Should we run CJ Triche and MCW at the three point line in iso as much as KJO, Dion, and Scoop hoping for similar results?
Either is possible, but...

when Triche, Fair, DC2(when sealing off) MCW, even Rak(sealing off) catch a pass a step ahead of their defender good things will happen this year. I think we will get alot of buckets that way.

 

[Gabjon]

G-mac was a point guard who can shoot so we ran his off screens to get him open later in his career. In 02-03 he got most of his points shooting off of the doubles Melo and Hak created. We have never played without a point guard in the 25 years I've been watching the team. There is a difference in adjusting your sets to your personal and scrapping your entire system. Btw we don't run a lot iso plays sure when a play breaks down or a guy decides to go one on one that is an iso play, but that is not a called iso play. JB rarely calls an iso plays except at the end of half situation, which 99% of coaches do. JB is known for calling very few plays during a game compared to other coaches Izzo calls a play almost every time down court for example.

 

[stuckinbig11]

So anyways, assuming that Rak does start at the four, I would see a very incomplete player.

Yeah, I heard that he had no intentions to work on his game at all this summer.

 

[moqui]

Yeah, I heard that he had no intentions to work on his game at all this summer.

Let me add three points:
(1) I have watched enough seasons of SU basketball to know that the Sophomore Leap is a real phenomenon;
(2) If you were going to design a perfect 4 body in a laboratory, it would look a lot like Rak
(3) I saw enough good things out of Rak last year - at the 4 - to expect him to have a substantial Leap of his own;

 

[orangefan13]

And what if DC2 isn't a positive defensively at the 5?
What if he doesn't block doesn't rebound, and can't stop people from scoring inside?


If he doesn't I think a good analogy would be something along the lines of...

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working.

If DC2 is no better at the five then the four, then I would rather have him at the four. Atleast Rak can anchor a presence when Dajuan gets beat and we can roll the dice on threes in the corner rather then easy layups. On the other hand Rak won't be blocking or altering shots if DC2 gets beat inside at center. The zone isn't built that way.

Truthfully though I hope Rak finds the attitude to WANT to become a four this offseason. Theres a good chance its his only ride to the NBA.
But, he has to WANT it. Its posible Rak might not be a true four to his Jr year, and Dajuan will be ready to jump to more of a center roll his sophmore year as well.

Nobody knows. While its fun that way I am in absolute agreement with all you guys. I would rather just be stacked and know it.

 

[realorange]

13, after reading your posts, I still don't know why you want to move DC2 out of the five. He is a wide body with good foot movement. Ideal person to take up a lot of room under the basket. From what we know, he is already a better offensive threat than Rak. Rak, because he is likely more mobile, is the player you want to be able to get out to the corner when needed. The rebounding is not an arguement in my book. Syracuse's all-time rebounder was a PF.
All the rumors about DC2 not being in shape are just that until you can tell me someone on the staff or team feels that way. This guy lives next door to the Melo Center. Do you really think he didn't pay attention to what happened to Fab two years ago?
DC2 at the 5, Rak at the 4, is where my money goes.

 

[br801]

And what if DC2 isn't a positive defensively at the 5?
What if he doesn't block doesn't rebound, and can't stop people from scoring inside?


If he doesn't I think a good analogy would be something along the lines of...

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working.

If DC2 is no better at the five then the four, then I would rather have him at the four. Atleast Rak can anchor a presence when Dajuan gets beat and we can roll the dice on threes in the corner rather then easy layups. On the other hand Rak won't be blocking or altering shots if DC2 gets beat inside at center. The zone isn't built that way.

Truthfully though I hope Rak finds the attitude to WANT to become a four this offseason. Theres a good chance its his only ride to the NBA.
But, he has to WANT it. Its posible Rak might not be a true four to his Jr year, and Dajuan will be ready to jump to more of a center roll his sophmore year as well.

Nobody knows. While its fun that way I am in absolute agreement with all you guys. I would rather just be stacked and know it.

Orangefan13, I usually have a difficult time following your posts and understanding your arguments, but this one is truly in a league of its own. Thank you (I think).

 

[moqui]

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working..

Post of the Year

 

[rrlbees]

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working.

If DC2 is no better at the five then the four, then I would rather have him at the four. Atleast Rak can anchor a presence when Dajuan gets beat and we can roll the dice on threes in the corner rather then easy layups. On the other hand Rak won't be blocking or altering shots if DC2 gets beat inside at center. The zone isn't built that way.

 

[moqui]

And what if DC2 isn't a positive defensively at the 5?
What if he doesn't block doesn't rebound, and can't stop people from scoring inside?


If he doesn't I think a good analogy would be something along the lines of...

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working.

If DC2 is no better at the five then the four, then I would rather have him at the four. Atleast Rak can anchor a presence when Dajuan gets beat and we can roll the dice on threes in the corner rather then easy layups. On the other hand Rak won't be blocking or altering shots if DC2 gets beat inside at center. The zone isn't built that way.

Truthfully though I hope Rak finds the attitude to WANT to become a four this offseason. Theres a good chance its his only ride to the NBA.
But, he has to WANT it. Its posible Rak might not be a true four to his Jr year, and Dajuan will be ready to jump to more of a center roll his sophmore year as well.

Nobody knows. While its fun that way I am in absolute agreement with all you guys. I would rather just be stacked and know it.

I understand

Rak is a boat.
DC is a bus.

but, what you have clearly failed to factor in is that Baye is a monorail, and nothing solves a transportation problem like a MONORAIL!

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Orangefan13, I usually have a difficult time following your posts and understanding your arguments, but this one is truly in a league of its own. Thank you (I think).

He's not the first the person to suggest that Rak at the 4 caused the demise of the Rochester ferry system. I'm not chiming in on this until I hear what Townie has to say.

 

[br801]

Nobody knows. While its fun that way I am in absolute agreement with all you guys. I would rather just be stacked and know it.

Call me crazy, but I almost like that better than your transportation system analogy.

 

[albanycuse]

And what if DC2 isn't a positive defensively at the 5?
What if he doesn't block doesn't rebound, and can't stop people from scoring inside?


If he doesn't I think a good analogy would be something along the lines of...

Your city has a large lake dividing it into two sides.
So they build a bus system that takes a long time to get across.
So then the city builds 3 huge docks on both sides of the lake with free boat rides for people. It proves to be 35 minutes faster then the buses.
But, then your city decides it can only have two systems. So it decides it will buy a second bus system and scrap the docks the most efficient method.

Rak at the five is the docks.
DC2 not working well defensively at the four or the 5 is a bus sytem. Rak as a 4 last year was a bus system.

Now if for some reason Rak works as good at the four as he did at the five, and DC2 shows hes better at the 5 defensively then the four then that would be like the city building 3 bridges across the lake that make traffic faster then the boats.
However, you don't get rid of what is working because your bus looks like a boat on the outside. If the bus doesn't have the qualities to cross the water then its less efficient. Rak is the boat system and its working.

If DC2 is no better at the five then the four, then I would rather have him at the four. Atleast Rak can anchor a presence when Dajuan gets beat and we can roll the dice on threes in the corner rather then easy layups. On the other hand Rak won't be blocking or altering shots if DC2 gets beat inside at center. The zone isn't built that way.

Truthfully though I hope Rak finds the attitude to WANT to become a four this offseason. Theres a good chance its his only ride to the NBA.
But, he has to WANT it. Its posible Rak might not be a true four to his Jr year, and Dajuan will be ready to jump to more of a center roll his sophmore year as well.

Nobody knows. While its fun that way I am in absolute agreement with all you guys. I would rather just be stacked and know it.

i thought we agreed on 3 sentences or less from you.

 

[reedny]

13, after reading your posts, I still don't know why you want to move DC2 out of the five. He is a wide body with good foot movement. Ideal person to take up a lot of room under the basket. From what we know, he is already a better offensive threat than Rak. Rak, because he is likely more mobile, is the player you want to be able to get out to the corner when needed. The rebounding is not an arguement in my book. Syracuse's all-time rebounder was a PF.
All the rumors about DC2 not being in shape are just that until you can tell me someone on the staff or team feels that way. This guy lives next door to the Melo Center. Do you really think he didn't pay attention to what happened to Fab two years ago?
DC2 at the 5, Rak at the 4, is where my money goes.

yuuup

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I just spit Mountain Dew all over my keyboard. Many thanks gents...

 

[orangefog]

I don't think DC will provide much in blocking shots, but if he can hold his ground and rebound out of the center position we will have an outstanding defense. I agree with Moqui, that Rak is going to take a big step forward and be a defensive terror on his side of the zone as a forward. On the subject of mass transit, I am for building a tunnel beneath the lake and then using both busses.

 

[reedny]

I don't think DC will provide much in blocking shots, but if he can hold his ground and rebound out of the center position we will have an outstanding defense. I agree with Moqui, that Rak is going to take a big step forward and be a defensive terror on his side of the zone as a forward. On the subject of mass transit, I am for building a tunnel beneath the lake and then using both busses.

The 'bus' didn't seem to have too many problems hauling in 12 rebounds at the McD AA game.
http://coachgeorgeraveling.com/articles/2012-mcdonalds-all-american-game-box-score/