Ranking the top freshmen in the ACC | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Ranking the top freshmen in the ACC

007

All American
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,378
Like
12,770
I mean last year's team surely would've been eaten up playing man. They were eaten up playing zone as well, but Joe, Buddy and Swider could not have stayed in front of a tortoise
You've been conditioned to think this way. I'm not suggesting that we would have seen "good" team defense regardless of type. I am suggesting that last year's team, and every team before that, was capable of playing at least some man as a change pace IF JB wanted to devote the practice time. We saw in the Duke game that Joe was reasonable at playing man in the triangle and 2 - without practice time.

Prior to coming to SU, these kids all grew up playing man. The ones that have moved on all go back to playing primarily/exclusively man if they are still playing. We were 211th in defensive efficiency last year (KenPom). How much worse could they play if we mixed in some man? How much better would the D efficiency have been if we had a change of pace D?

The larger point is that I think that JB has come around and we will see some man this season. Most will think "well that's because we are more athletic now." Although true - we are more athletic - we have seen many hyper-athletic teams over the years and still didn't play man. Being more athletic is not the real reason. JB's teams were always capable of playing man. JB now has to evolve with the game.
 

Wrinkle

2nd String
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
781
Like
1,644
You've been conditioned to think this way. I'm not suggesting that we would have seen "good" team defense regardless of type. I am suggesting that last year's team, and every team before that, was capable of playing at least some man as a change pace IF JB wanted to devote the practice time. We saw in the Duke game that Joe was reasonable at playing man in the triangle and 2 - without practice time.

Prior to coming to SU, these kids all grew up playing man. The ones that have moved on all go back to playing primarily/exclusively man if they are still playing. We were 211th in defensive efficiency last year (KenPom). How much worse could they play if we mixed in some man? How much better would the D efficiency have been if we had a change of pace D?

The larger point is that I think that JB has come around and we will see some man this season. Most will think "well that's because we are more athletic now." Although true - we are more athletic - we have seen many hyper-athletic teams over the years and still didn't play man. Being more athletic is not the real reason. JB's teams were always capable of playing man. JB now has to evolve with the game.
Well yes I agree with that sentiment
 

Orangezoo

In the wind
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
30,254
Like
64,217
You've been conditioned to think this way. I'm not suggesting that we would have seen "good" team defense regardless of type. I am suggesting that last year's team, and every team before that, was capable of playing at least some man as a change pace IF JB wanted to devote the practice time. We saw in the Duke game that Joe was reasonable at playing man in the triangle and 2 - without practice time.

Prior to coming to SU, these kids all grew up playing man. The ones that have moved on all go back to playing primarily/exclusively man if they are still playing. We were 211th in defensive efficiency last year (KenPom). How much worse could they play if we mixed in some man? How much better would the D efficiency have been if we had a change of pace D?

The larger point is that I think that JB has come around and we will see some man this season. Most will think "well that's because we are more athletic now." Although true - we are more athletic - we have seen many hyper-athletic teams over the years and still didn't play man. Being more athletic is not the real reason. JB's teams were always capable of playing man. JB now has to evolve with the game.

Our MTM will key in highly on how well we negotiate screens and help defenders rotate. Too many teams have at least one if not two shooters capable of making a deep three when unimpeded. So for your 32 pctrs they can scorch the nets with open looks purely playing zone. It's been a killer for us.

So the evolution does make a lot of sense. That said we have been deeply conditioned against believing it based on precedent so I think it's fair to say let's see it happen first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 007

007

All American
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,378
Like
12,770
Our MTM will key in highly on how well we negotiate screens and help defenders rotate. Too many teams have at least one if not two shooters capable of making a deep three when unimpeded. So for your 32 pctrs they can scorch the nets with open looks purely playing zone. It's been a killer for us.

So the evolution does make a lot of sense. That said we have been deeply conditioned against believing it based on precedent so I think it's fair to say let's see it happen first.
Agree. From experience, I can tell you that a lot of practice time has to be devoted to dealing with screens (on and off ball), help side rotations, positioning, on ball pressure, dealing with cutters, how to defend post players, and on and on and on. Much more complicated than playing zone. You have to devote practice time to develop those concepts or it will be a total disaster. ACC teams are very good at playing against man.
 

Orangezoo

In the wind
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
30,254
Like
64,217
Agree. From experience, I can tell you that a lot of practice time has to be devoted to dealing with screens (on and off ball), help side rotations, positioning, on ball pressure, dealing with cutters, how to defend post players, and on and on and on. Much more complicated than playing zone. You have to devote practice time to develop those concepts or it will be a total disaster. ACC teams are very good at playing against man.

I'd love to see them pick up 3/4 court pressure, even if its just token pressure, before dropping back into either man or zone to help keep teams honest and offset dealing with so many screens and cuts to defend. To your point on needing time and chemistry, even with that commitment we probably need something to help these kids out increase the margin of error.
 

IthacaMatt

Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
19,740
Like
26,420
Not that it matters at all, but we never played a 1-3-1 last year. I also understand that it is dopey to keep pointing that out. I guess the old coach in me never dies.

FWIW 2 - I am convinced that JB is going to play some man this season. Whether enough practice time is devoted to playing it well is a different issue.

FWIW 3 - the belief that previous teams weren't "athletic enough" to play man is, and always was, BS.

Yes, we did play a 1-3-1. We covered the free throw line with one guy, we had the ball-hawker up top, and the 2 wings played opposite the foul line, not on the baseline. The Center was the only one down low.

It was NOT a 1-1-3, as many posted. The wings were too high up the court.
 

Capt. Tuttle

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 22, 2011
Messages
22,333
Like
29,285
Agree. From experience, I can tell you that a lot of practice time has to be devoted to dealing with screens (on and off ball), help side rotations, positioning, on ball pressure, dealing with cutters, how to defend post players, and on and on and on. Much more complicated than playing zone. You have to devote practice time to develop those concepts or it will be a total disaster. ACC teams are very good at playing against man.
From a B/R article on zone vs man. Of course, what does a long time NBA coach know about it.

"You actually have to play harder than man," Carlisle said. "It requires more concentration because you're constantly bumping to different bodies, and then you have to deal with a diminishing shot clock and rebounding."

 

007

All American
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,378
Like
12,770
I'd love to see them pick up 3/4 court pressure, even if its just token pressure, before dropping back into either man or zone to help keep teams honest and offset dealing with so many screens and cuts to defend. To your point on needing time and chemistry, even with that commitment we probably need something to help these kids out increase the margin of error.
2-1-2 3/4 court back to the 2-3 is the perfect compliment to the 2-3. It's what Pitino used.
 

Orangezoo

In the wind
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
30,254
Like
64,217
2-1-2 3/4 court back to the 2-3 is the perfect compliment to the 2-3. It's what Pitino used.

Yup plus I liked the wrinkle Padgett threw in as interim when he had them falling back into man on a pct of possessions too. It nicely kept offenses guessing.
 

007

All American
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,378
Like
12,770
Yes, we did play a 1-3-1. We covered the free throw line with one guy, we had the ball-hawker up top, and the 2 wings played opposite the foul line, not on the baseline. The Center was the only one down low.

It was NOT a 1-1-3, as many posted. The wings were too high up the court.
Not to belabor the point (too late??), what JB used was the standard 2-3 rotations, but stacked the guards at the top (Joe on top, Buddy on the foul line to take away the high post entry). This gave the look of the 1-3-1, which was intentional, but the rotations were identical to JB other than the stack. Of this, I am positive.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most teams use a different set/offense to attack a zone depending on whether they are facing an odd or even front at the top. The odd front look (1-3-1) created confusion if teams attacked it as if it were odd front rotations. This was the intent, along with keeping the ball out of the high post.
 

cuseincincy

All Conference
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
3,314
Like
5,270
Listen, I do this each year as well.

I'm 42. I have a master's degree (go iSchool!), think of myself as reasonably well-educated and intelligent (even tho some may disagree after reading my posts here, to be fair) and I will convince myself each year of two things regarding Cuse Sports:

Football team can win 12 games.
Basketball team will play M2M defense at times.

You can imagine how I view myself after each season upon convincing myself that both of those things could have happened. I'll take the fact that we went 1-3-1 as a huge win last year.
You and All Day are just young enough to maybe not remember when SU played nothing but man. When JAB was accused of just recruiting a bunch of athletes and "rolling the ball out there" when SU's best offense was an outlet pass from a rebound and when SU would actually fast break off of made baskets. We haven't seen that for a loooong time. The success with the 2/3 changed JAB and the way he coached. The use of the the 1-3-1 was a glimmer that JAB still had some tricks up his sleeve and may not be as locked into his ways of doing things as he has for the past 20 or so years. No doubt last year (and other years) roster was not going to be able to play much man. They were who they were.

I'm not sure which I think more often pre-season...More M2M or a 9/10 man rotation. Every pre-season. This year they may be intertwined. If we play some M2M that may open the bench a little. Right now I think most of us see a 3 man guard rotation, 3 man forward rotation and someone has to backup the 5. It may be a little too much to expect from JAB this years team.

I would have liked to see another of our frosh mentioned. Either Bunch or Taylor have a huge opportunity (need?) to contribute this year.
 

Oakland

2022 Iggy Winner: ACC Record
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,531
Like
2,619
You've been conditioned to think this way. I'm not suggesting that we would have seen "good" team defense regardless of type. I am suggesting that last year's team, and every team before that, was capable of playing at least some man as a change pace IF JB wanted to devote the practice time. We saw in the Duke game that Joe was reasonable at playing man in the triangle and 2 - without practice time.

Prior to coming to SU, these kids all grew up playing man. The ones that have moved on all go back to playing primarily/exclusively man if they are still playing. We were 211th in defensive efficiency last year (KenPom). How much worse could they play if we mixed in some man? How much better would the D efficiency have been if we had a change of pace D?

The larger point is that I think that JB has come around and we will see some man this season. Most will think "well that's because we are more athletic now." Although true - we are more athletic - we have seen many hyper-athletic teams over the years and still didn't play man. Being more athletic is not the real reason. JB's teams were always capable of playing man. JB now has to evolve with the game.
What defense do you think the team plays against when they are practicing their offense?
 

Niastri

2022 Iggy Award winner for Leading Rebounder
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,459
Like
3,346
You and All Day are just young enough to maybe not remember when SU played nothing but man. When JAB was accused of just recruiting a bunch of athletes and "rolling the ball out there" when SU's best offense was an outlet pass from a rebound and when SU would actually fast break off of made baskets. We haven't seen that for a loooong time. The success with the 2/3 changed JAB and the way he coached. The use of the the 1-3-1 was a glimmer that JAB still had some tricks up his sleeve and may not be as locked into his ways of doing things as he has for the past 20 or so years. No doubt last year (and other years) roster was not going to be able to play much man. They were who they were.

I'm not sure which I think more often pre-season...More M2M or a 9/10 man rotation. Every pre-season. This year they may be intertwined. If we play some M2M that may open the bench a little. Right now I think most of us see a 3 man guard rotation, 3 man forward rotation and someone has to backup the 5. It may be a little too much to expect from JAB this years team.

I would have liked to see another of our frosh mentioned. Either Bunch or Taylor have a huge opportunity (need?) to contribute this year.
I've thought that the press might be a way to get our most overused players some rest. When Edwards and/or Girard are on the bench, this might be or chance to get some minutes from Carey and Copeland in unsettled conditions to take advantage of their length and athleticism.

Hima, Carey, Williams, Mintz and Copeland would be our longest and most athletic lineup by far, but they would have a terrible time scoring in the half court.

A full court press with Carey on the inbounder and Hima defending the basket, though, might be able to get a lot of dunks in transition.

Three or four possessions a half this way would get rest for Edwards and Girard and get some use out of our second teams without bogging down the game.
 

IthacaMatt

Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
19,740
Like
26,420
Not to belabor the point (too late??), what JB used was the standard 2-3 rotations, but stacked the guards at the top (Joe on top, Buddy on the foul line to take away the high post entry). This gave the look of the 1-3-1, which was intentional, but the rotations were identical to JB other than the stack. Of this, I am positive.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most teams use a different set/offense to attack a zone depending on whether they are facing an odd or even front at the top. The odd front look (1-3-1) created confusion if teams attacked it as if it were odd front rotations. This was the intent, along with keeping the ball out of the high post.

I thought the 1-3-1 was a terrific tactical move from the old goat. What does everyone say about attacking the zone? Pass it to a playmaker at the foul line. You take that away, and you take away the starting point for the other team's offense.
 

orangefog

Voted "Best Looking Poster" 8 years in a row
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,372
Like
44,167
I thought the 1-3-1 was a terrific tactical move from the old goat. What does everyone say about attacking the zone? Pass it to a playmaker at the foul line. You take that away, and you take away the starting point for the other team's offense.
For last year's team, that was a great move. With the improved athleticism, this team's best change-up may be man-to-man defense. The fact that the "old goat" finally recognized the benefit of switching up defenses could be a huge factor to this year's success.
 

Cuse_NYC

2nd String
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
936
Like
1,991
Yup...more athleticism on CUSE roster this year. But m2m...?
I kind of doubt. Joe G. would be a liability due to size and Jesse,
I believe, will still be somewhat foul prone.
JB's 2-3 needs to be learned..it's intricate to a point and the rotations
take a half season or so for the incoming freshmen to absorb.
But the athleticism, sorely missed last year, will be present in 2022/23.
With Mintz and Torrence driving, CUSE will look to run, and trap and press
more than any team in 3 years.
Yeah, there won’t be any M2M whatsoever… unless he uses it in the exhibitions. But we know how that turned out ol
 

Newhouser

All American
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
6,232
Like
10,664
I was watching Marek try to guard a post player in the TBT and thought "yikes he is bad". I am not saying Jesse would be worse, but making Jesse play post D in a man situation is just asking for foul trouble that we can't afford.
 

Cuse'91

All Conference
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
3,952
Like
5,381
We've had "active" zones and "passive" zones. Think we're deep enough this year to be aggressive in the zone throughout the entire game, as well as apply more full court press before dropping into the zone. Who played that ultra aggressive "amoeba" like D, UNLV?
 

007

All American
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,378
Like
12,770
I was watching Marek try to guard a post player in the TBT and thought "yikes he is bad". I am not saying Jesse would be worse, but making Jesse play post D in a man situation is just asking for foul trouble that we can't afford.
He is probably playing man D for the Dutch national team. Fouling was a big issue for him playing zone, it will be in man as well. In either defense, this is a discipline, practice, experience, physical strength, and maturation issue.
 

walsh2012

Starter
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Messages
1,506
Like
3,430

4. Four-star G Judah Mintz (Syracuse)
Height/Weight: 6-3/175
School: Mouth of Wilson (VA) Oak Hill
On3 Consensus: No. 49


While Joe Girard has one guard spot locked up, the other guard spot is open. Judah Mintz slots right into that position as a seamless compliment beside Girard. Mintz is a paint touch guard who aggressively plays at the point of attack on both ends. Word out of Syracuse is there may be more man-to-man played this season, and Mintz is the perfect player to usher in that look.

With his all-out style of play, Mintz could quickly become a fan favorite.
Joe isnt playing the one this year
 

Forum statistics

Threads
160,429
Messages
4,339,271
Members
5,628
Latest member
ACE64

Online statistics

Members online
254
Guests online
786
Total visitors
1,040




Top Bottom