Recruiting for the Zone and Early Departures

[Bayside44]

I don't want to sound concieted but we are syracuse we should be able to get pretty much any recruit we want..

A $10 monthly car lease and some free spaghetti ain't what it used to be.

And we're not going to go out and get undersized kids that thrive handchecking and flopping either. Kids that can play show their skills fast at Cuse. Upside and downside to that.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Imagine if we signed Quade Green, Jordan Tucker and Lonnie Walker. We recruited those kids, right?

Did we sign them?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

We can play the "what ifs" and we recruited to the best of our knowledge and ability (without paying as you suggest) assumptions. But the proof ultimately comes down to what's on the floor. And...as I'm sure you know, our beloved recruiting guru Francis, has said the top guy hadn't been to a hs game that wasn't his boys' in a long time. I understand summer AAu, but recruiting is a full time aspect of the job as well. I think we've been missing that.

There’s a difference between recruiting kids and signing kids. We certainly recruit top tier kids. Signing them is a different story, especially when you’re on probation. Arizona and Louisville have no kids for the 2018 class. They both lost all 3 of their commits due to the uncertainty of potential sanctions.

What about Hopkins? Was he out recruiting? Boeheim said he thinks the uncertainty of the coaching position at Syracuse was a problem. Maybe he’s right.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Fair point. But recruiting for the zone is also why we currently have a 6'5" HS SG starting at PG for us. It worked with MCW (who played MUCH more PG in HS/AAU than Frank). We'll see if it works with Goodine, who's being brought in to play PG.

Howard played plenty of point guard in high school. And he’s averaging 15 ppg. He’s not the problem.

 

[orangecuse]

Look at the list of players I gave. Trevon Duval, Jordan Tucker and Alex O'Connell all ended up at Duke. Diallo, Quade Green and Nick Richards all picked Kentucky. Billy Preston picked Kansas. Jahvon Quinerly and Brandon Randolph picked Arizona. VJ King ended up at Louisville. Syracuse recruited all of those players. We can't recruit every Top 20 kid because it doens't make sense. Some kids we have no shot at because of geography, but we do recruit Top 10 and Top 20 kids. We recruited Duval and Porter and Bamba, all Top 5 kids. Lonnie Walker Top 15.

We recruited these guys as you mentioned, but how often do we ever land Top 10, Top 20 type kids when we are going head to head with the those elite programs? I don't think our success rate is too high, actually I don't recall when we won any of those battles. I'm not including Coleman because he was literally in our back yard, although, seeing him play his freshman year when he wasn't injured, I have no idea how he was rated so high.

It seems throughout most of our recruiting history over the past decade or two, if we end up with a Top 10-20 ish type guy it's usually because they had relatively blown up after we got a commitment from them. I know we have Bazley coming in next year who's number 9, but he committed to OSU, and I don't really recall us being in the running for him prior to that, or even mentioned for that matter. It seemed he just came out of left field?

 

[syrcuse]

There’s a difference between recruiting kids and signing kids. We certainly recruit top tier kids. Signing them is a different story, especially when you’re on probation. Arizona and Louisville have no kids for the 2018 class. They both lost all 3 of their commits due to the uncertainty of potential sanctions.

What about Hopkins? Was he out recruiting? Boeheim said he thinks the uncertainty of the coaching position at Syracuse was a problem. Maybe he’s right.

How many times have you read OR SEEN cALIPARI AT A RECRUIT'S GAME??? A+ for effort in my book.

Again, this has been sliding for some time. Before probation, Francis indicated the top guy has been MIA. It has been showing on the rosters for a few years now.

Did NCAA thingy scare off a few?? Maybe...but who was in charge during our (2) NCAA slaps??? I'm beating around around the bush... We are and have been in decline. And yes, I know we went to the Final Four a few years ago as -----a bubble team. We caught a mega break on an MSU upset to get us there.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Howard played plenty of point guard in high school. And he’s averaging 15 ppg. He’s not the problem.

Current Butler Frosh Aaron Thompson was Paul V's starting PG during Frank's senior year. Frank would spell him on occasion but even then shared ball handling duties with VJ King. I'm pleased with Frank's progression & expect an All-ACC Senior year from him but he was not a PG when he came in & is still "learning on the job" as a Junior. Call him a SG or combo guard in HS but I wouldn't say he was a PG.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

We recruited these guys as you mentioned, but how often do we ever land Top 10, Top 20 type kids when we are going head to head with the those elite programs? I don't think our success rate is too high, actually I don't recall when we won any of those battles. I'm not including Coleman because he was literally in our back yard, although, seeing him play his freshman year when he wasn't injured, I have no idea how he was rated so high.

It seems throughout most of our recruiting history over the past decade or two, if we end up with a Top 10-20 ish type guy it's usually because they had relatively blown up after we got a commitment from them. I know we have Bazley coming in next year who's number 9, but he committed to OSU, and I don't really recall us being in the running for him prior to that, or even mentioned for that matter. It seemed he just came out of left field?

It’s pretty rare we win those battles. Tyus Battle? I believe Duke offered him. There aren’t many teams that win against Duke and Kentucky. Even Kansas and UNC struggle against those heavyweights.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Current Butler Frosh Aaron Thompson was Paul V's starting PG during Frank's senior year. Frank would spell him on occasion but even then shared ball handling duties with VJ King. I'm pleased with Frank's progression & expect an All-ACC Senior year from him but he was not a PG when he came in & is still "learning on the job" as a Junior. Call him a SG or combo guard in HS but I wouldn't say he was a PG.

Boeheim said he played point guard. His high school coach said he played point guard. What kid coming in isn’t learning on the job? Howard has been really good this season and he’s not part of our scoring issues.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

How many times have you read OR SEEN cALIPARI AT A RECRUIT'S GAME??? A+ for effort in my book.

Again, this has been sliding for some time. Before probation, Francis indicated the top guy has been MIA. It has been showing on the rosters for a few years now.

Did NCAA thingy scare off a few?? Maybe...but who was in charge during our (2) NCAA slaps??? I'm beating around around the bush... We are and have been in decline. And yes, I know we went to the Final Four a few years ago as -----a bubble team. We caught a mega break on an MSU upset to get us there.

It sounds like your intent is on blaming Boeheim. I get it. But to say we don’t recruit top 20 kids simply isn’t true. Have we landed them? We never really have, at least not the Top 10 kids. We’ve been to 2 final fours In the last 5 years despite the sanctions and uncertainty with the head coaching position. We put kids in the 1st round in each of the last 6 years, so we’ve recruited pretty well. Sanctions are over and we have a great class coming in. Think we’ll be pretty good next year.

Boeheim seems to be recruiting now. Maybe he left too much up to Hopkins.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Of course, any kid that doesn't come here must be getting paid.

I believe that's true.

 

[orangecuse]

It’s pretty rare we win those battles. Tyus Battle? I believe Duke offered him. There aren’t many teams that win against Duke and Kentucky. Even Kansas and UNC struggle against those heavyweights. [

Was he considered an elite recruit? I thought he was ranked late 20's or beyond? I know he wasn't a Mickey D, which is really the threshold for elite status, no?

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Boeheim said he played point guard. His high school coach said he played point guard. What kid coming in isn’t learning on the job? Howard has been really good this season and he’s not part of our scoring issues.

I watched 3 full Paul V games his Senior year & am just stating what I saw. Thompson was the PG and was all-league. Frank played off-ball. Yes, all kids are initially "learning", most aren't learning a position that they didn't even start at for their HS team. There are nuances to being a PG, let alone at the ACC level, that Frank has yet to grasp as a Junior. His ball-handling & decision making aren't there yet either but he's our only option. I agree that he's been better than myself & the majority of the board expected but he absolutely plays a role in our offensive issues.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Good points, our highest rated recruits are always going to be the guys that leave early for the NBA (the Battles, the Lydons, the MCWs, Ennis, etc.) I'm always expecting those guys to leave after one season, two if we're lucky. Where we need to get our groove back is developing the 4-year program guys that we recruit (Rautins, Jackson, Fair, Triche, Joseph, etc.) If I had to pick the type of recruiting class that we should aim to have every year, it's the 2010 class. That group had two early departure caliber guys (Waiters/Fab) and two program guys (Fair/Keita.)

Keep replacing the early departure guys every class while adding a couple program guys that fit the zone but have time to develop their offensive games. The 3 sons 2013 class hurt us with the transfers, same with Kaleb Joseph leaving.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Was he considered an elite recruit? I thought he was ranked late 20's or beyond? I know he wasn't a Mickey D, which is really the threshold for elite status, no?

Battle was Top 10 at one point. Elite enough for Duke, Kentucky and Louisville to offer. Was #15 at this point. I recall he got hurt in high school, so maybe that effected his ranking.

Tyus Battle Visits National Champion Duke, Louisville Up Next

BTW, Dion Waiters and Tyler Ennis were not McDonald’s AA’s and both are in the NBA. I’d say they both were elite kids in high school.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I watched 3 full Paul V games his Senior year & am just stating what I saw. Thompson was the PG and was all-league. Frank played off-ball. Yes, all kids are initially "learning", most aren't learning a position that they didn't even start at for their HS team. There are nuances to being a PG, let alone at the ACC level, that Frank has yet to grasp as a Junior. His ball-handling & decision making aren't there yet either but he's our only option. I agree that he's been better than myself & the majority of the board expected but he absolutely plays a role in our offensive issues.

This is what his coach said:

Howard, a four-star prospect according to various recruiting services, tore his ACL during the summer league circuit last season and is easing his way back onto the basketball court. He has been described as a shooting guard and a point guard. His AAU coach, Keith Stevens, said Howard's passing skills, combined with the volume of guards in the Team Takeover program, made Howard primarily a point guard.

"He's definitely a point guard," Stevens said. "He's a very good passer. He has a very good feel for the game, he's athletic and he makes shots."

Howard is an excellent passer, we’ve seen that since his freshman year. He’s got very few options to pass the ball to. Battle and Brissett. He’s not the problem on offense.

Keep in mind we recruited a Top 50 point gaurd in Kaleb Joseph who is probably 6-2 at best as well at PG.

 

[Alsacs]

Reading this thread I mean it’s obvious people are complaining for no reason. The program has made no mistakes, the HC has done tremendous in recruiting, sanctions are the sole reason for 4 consecutive medicore regular seasons.

The fact our HC is five and half decades older than his players is nothing to worry about.

Just sit back shut up and bow at the altar of Jim Boeheim who has done a perfect job.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Reading this thread I mean it’s obvious people are complaining for no reason. The program has made no mistakes, the HC has done tremendous in recruiting, sanctions are the sole reason for 4 consecutive medicore regular seasons.

The fact our HC is five and half decades older than his players is nothing to worry about.

Just sit back shut up and bow at the altar of Jim Boeheim who has done a perfect job.

People like you need someone to blame. You think sanctions don’t matter? Ask Arizona and Louisville how that’s going. We’ve had injuries, bad luck and a couple defections. And you want to blame all of it it JB. can’t blame him for everything.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Did we sign them?

We didn’t sign them. But we DID recruit them. Let’s stop pretending we don’t recruit the same players as everyone else.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We didn’t sign them. But we DID recruit them. Let’s stop pretending we don’t recruit the same players as everyone else.

You miss the point. Nobody is arguing about who we recruited. People are concerned with the roster management. It’s two entirely different points. We are never ready for kids to leave early.

 

[Alsacs]

People like you need someone to blame. You think sanctions don’t matter? Ask Arizona and Louisville how that’s going. We’ve had injuries, bad luck and a couple defections. And you want to blame all of it it JB. can’t blame him for everything.

The weight of the pyramid falls on the top.
JB is first coach to ever get sanctions restricting postseason from the NCAA two times at one school.
He is responsible.
The NCAA can burn but JB is the head of the program.

The state of the program is on him.
JB pushed Hop out.
Next year will tell the next 4 years of the program. Frustration is not out of line.

 

[Ghost]

This is what his coach said:

Howard, a four-star prospect according to various recruiting services, tore his ACL during the summer league circuit last season and is easing his way back onto the basketball court. He has been described as a shooting guard and a point guard. His AAU coach, Keith Stevens, said Howard's passing skills, combined with the volume of guards in the Team Takeover program, made Howard primarily a point guard.

"He's definitely a point guard," Stevens said. "He's a very good passer. He has a very good feel for the game, he's athletic and he makes shots."

Howard is an excellent passer, we’ve seen that since his freshman year. He’s got very few options to pass the ball to. Battle and Brissett. He’s not the problem on offense.

Keep in mind we recruited a Top 50 point gaurd in Kaleb Joseph who is probably 6-2 at best as well at PG.

I don't know - that's his AAU coach speaking. AAU is really up and down, it's not so much a half-court style that you see in HS. I can see Howard being better situated as a PG in that style...half-court is his issue for most people.

I'm just not sure I put any weight into one random quote from Keith Stevens that may have been a question about whether he CAN play PG for SU. It's just not clear. I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you, or agreeing with the other side, I just don't know that you're countering with that quote is helpful at all as a counterargument to the OPs point, fwiw. From another article on syracuse.com:

"Howard can play shooting guard or point guard. He has been used primarily at shooting guard, but his high school coach Glenn Farello and his AAU coach Keith Stevens said Howard's skills as a passer and floor general would allow him to excel at the point.

The distinction is important because Howard will provide insurance at point guard for next year's freshman Kaleb Joseph, the likely successor to the departing Tyler Ennis. The Orange has lost underclassmen point guards to the NBA Draft in each of the last two seasons."

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

You miss the point. Nobody is arguing about who we recruited. People are concerned with the roster management. It’s two entirely different points. We are never ready for kids to leave early.

That’s actually not true. There are posters here claiming we don’t recruit offensive players.

How do you replace a Malachi Richardson? Bring in Tyus Battle. How do you replace Tyler Lydon in April?

Can’t really replace Taurean Thomson and Thorpe, right?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I don't know - that's his AAU coach speaking. AAU is really up and down, it's not so much a half-court style that you see in HS. I can see Howard being better situated as a PG in that style...half-court is his issue for most people.

I'm just not sure I put any weight into one random quote from Keith Stevens that may have been a question about whether he CAN play PG for SU. It's just not clear. I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you, or agreeing with the other side, I just don't know that you're countering with that quote is helpful at all as a counterargument to the OPs point, fwiw. From another article on syracuse.com:

"Howard can play shooting guard or point guard. He has been used primarily at shooting guard, but his high school coach Glenn Farello and his AAU coach Keith Stevens said Howard's skills as a passer and floor general would allow him to excel at the point.

The distinction is important because Howard will provide insurance at point guard for next year's freshman Kaleb Joseph, the likely successor to the departing Tyler Ennis. The Orange has lost underclassmen point guards to the NBA Draft in each of the last two seasons."

Boeheim said he played point guard in high school as well. We have a poster here that saw Howard play point guard in high school as well. Maybe they are both lying too?

 

[Ghost]

People like you need someone to blame. You think sanctions don’t matter? Ask Arizona and Louisville how that’s going. We’ve had injuries, bad luck and a couple defections. And you want to blame all of it it JB. can’t blame him for everything.

I guess the hard part of the evaluation is that we've run kids off. So, it's not like we're this feel good University that's been straddled with sanctions and no outs as we had to hold on to some dead weight.

We've sort of replaced dead weight with some more dead weight at times and just generally seem a bit mismanaged. I think there are a lot of reasons for our struggles, but when you're jumping off point is that you're Syracuse University, you have a track record of putting people in the NBA, etc...you shouldn't be having so many issues with roster management, player development, etc...I don't know. I'd argue more, but every day I switch my reasoning on what's to blame, and sometimes I just settle on on bad luck...hahaha, it's just been frustrating.

It may be less frustrating if we were more fun to watch...but we play some of the ugliest basketball in the country. I mean, we make mistakes I don't see at the HS level......We have guards that to this day remain oblivious to the fact that defenders may, in certain instances, come from behind you to steal the ball. haha That's like having a baseball team that keeps falling for the pick-off play at first base where the first baseman never throws the ball back to the pitcher.