Recruiting

[SWC75]

I was replying to the original post of:
"Dino hired the OL coach and the DC to implement his plan. He conceived of the idea to utilize the 3-5-3 system well before he chose Tony White to run the defense."

This post is incorrect. It is NOT a 3-5-3 and also that the defensive plan of White's is NOT Dino's scheme. It had nothing to do with giving credit to anything other then what was posted.

It's a scheme he decided to adopt. He didn't just hire White and say, "Let's give this guy a shot", and White came out with the 3-3-5 and Dino said "Wow! I never thought of that!"

 

[Killdozer]

It's a scheme he decided to adopt. He didn't just hire White and say, "Let's give this guy a shot", and White came out with the 3-3-5 and Dino said "Wow! I never thought of that!"

Wrong...the hire before that ran a 3-3-5 and Dino saw how well it worked before the hire. The dude was recommended to Dino by a long time coaching friend. However, that guy hit the bricks as soon as he got an SEC offer for a DC job. Dino knew what he was getting from White.

 

[RF2044]

I was replying to the original post of:
"Dino hired the OL coach and the DC to implement his plan. He conceived of the idea to utilize the 3-5-3 system well before he chose Tony White to run the defense."

This post is incorrect. It is NOT a 3-5-3 and also that the defensive plan of White's is NOT Dino's scheme. It had nothing to do with giving credit to anything other then what was posted.

Good catch on the 3-5-3 -- didn't catch that in the post above.

The rest of your post I don't agree with at all. Early on under Babers, with Ward as DC, we weren't good defensively. We played "better" in 2018, but still weren't strong. Our offense's ability to move the chains and outscore teams helped the defense in many games.

Recognizing that, Babers made the strategic decision to shift to a 3-3-5 system. That made a lot of sense, because it maximized personnel that we can recruit well [LBs, DBs] and minimizes our trouble spot of struggling to recruit impact DTs.

With this strategy in mind, Babers overtly chased someone who could implement this system, and his first choice was a head coach who expressed interest in the role. When that guy ultimately decided to take the job, we hired one of his disciples, who was only here a short time before using us a stepping stone to another job, and then we pivoted to White. Who -- by any objective measure -- has been a smashing success.

So I don't resonate with your point about it "NOT" being "Dino's scheme." It is, because that's what he chose to implement, and he made the personnel changes needed to make that change successful. White being the brains behind the operation defensively is not in doubt, but you have to give credit to the head coach for identifying the need, committing to the change, and bringing in the right people to successfully implement the change.

 

[SoBristol]

My viewpoint, from paying attention to recruiting / the college landscape over time.

There are three ways to construct a successful roster. One is to recruit highly rated players, and to over-recruit them every year. In the rare situations that blue chip recruits don't pan out -- no problem, the next one usually does. We've also seen the mathematical studies -- there's a reason why factories tend to be and stay successful, and why the success those programs experience is correlated to how well they recruit. Problem is, not all programs can recruit like that.

Another way is to capitalize by being in a fertile recruiting area, and land secondary tier players, but guys who are still good. Pitt is a good example of this, so is Cincinnati. Cincinnati isn't getting any of the top tier guys from Ohio -- OSU lands the ones that they target -- but the second tier players are still really good. A stud linebacker who is 6-0 instead of 6-3, for example. Teams that are smack dab in the middle of an area that has lots of quality football prospects are able to capitalize on that and land quality talent.

The third way is to have a good system on both sides of the ball, and recruit players who are strong system fits. I think this is where SU sits -- we can't generally compete with blue chip programs for blue chip recruits, and we aren't in a hotbed for football recruits. So we need to have solid systems in place [check] and find quality athletes who fit what we're trying to do.

Right, but we also need to hit the transfer wires and jucos, and occasionally get lucky as we did with Shrader, AET, and Triston Jackson, and to a lesser degree with guys like Bleich and Tisdale. The transfer portal provides a make-up opportunity for programs like ours that have disadvantages (familiar to all here) compared to state schools in better locations. There must be plenty of talent buried in the depth charts of other programs, looking for a new opportunity.

Now, before we put on orange colored glasses about our systems, we are on a two game win streak after 3 competitive losses, hoping for a minor bowl, on a team carried to a large extent by one terrific RB and the running and guts of one transfer QB. We have talented young LBs and CBs, but not much depth. it might be early to claim we are on an upswing in building a roster that can sustain success. It is great for a change, for this point in November, to be an SU fan.

 

[Killdozer]

Good catch on the 3-5-3 -- didn't catch that in the post above.

The rest of your post I don't agree with at all. Early on under Babers, with Ward as DC, we weren't good defensively. We played "better" in 2018, but still weren't strong. Our offense's ability to move the chains and outscore teams helped the defense in many games.

Recognizing that, Babers made the strategic decision to shift to a 3-3-5 system. That made a lot of sense, because it maximized personnel that we can recruit well [LBs, DBs] and minimizes our trouble spot of struggling to recruit impact DTs.

With this strategy in mind, Babers overtly chased someone who could implement this system, and his first choice was a head coach who expressed interest in the role. When that guy ultimately decided to take the job, we hired one of his disciples, who was only here a short time before using us a stepping stone to another job, and then we pivoted to White. Who -- by any objective measure -- has been a smashing success.

So I don't resonate with your point about it "NOT" being "Dino's scheme." It is, because that's what he chose to implement, and he made the personnel changes needed to make that change successful. White being the brains behind the operation defensively is not in doubt, but you have to give credit to the head coach for identifying the need, committing to the change, and bringing in the right people to successfully implement the change.

It's still not Dino's scheme, he choose that type of defense because he thought it would fit his players however, the defensive design has nothing to do with Dino's input...ie: Not his scheme.

 

[RF2044]

Right, but we also need to hit the transfer wires and jucos, and occasionally get lucky as we did with Shrader, AET, and Triston Jackson, and to a lesser degree with guys like Bleich and Tisdale. The transfer portal provides a make-up opportunity for programs like ours that have disadvantages (familiar to all here) compared to state schools in better locations. There must be plenty of talent buried in the depth charts of other programs, looking for a new opportunity.

Now, before we put on orange colored glasses about our systems, we are on a two game win streak after 3 competitive losses, hoping for a minor bowl, on a team carried to a large extent by one terrific RB and the running and guts of one transfer QB. We have talented young LBs and CBs, but not much depth. it might be early to claim we are on an upswing in building a roster that can sustain success. It is great for a change, for this point in November, to be an SU fan.

Agree about the transfer portal. It is a new pipeline, and we have to continue to mine it for talent [same as everybody else].

As to your second paragraph, here's what I indisputably recognize: under Baber's predecessor, we were small, slow, and had guys getting hurt seeming every 10 plays because they were undersized. Babers has recruited a nucleus that is bigger, faster, and more athletic -- and gives us the opportunity to compete against the rest of the ACC. Yes, we still have areas where depth can improve -- no argument there. But we're on the right track, and this will only improve if we can make a bowl to give our coaches something positive to sell on the recruiting trail. That's why getting to a bowl this year is so important -- and with Shrader, it could be the first of several bowls in a row.

 

[RF2044]

It's still not Dino's scheme, he choose that type of defense because he thought it would fit his players however, the defensive design has nothing to do with Dino's input...ie: Not his scheme.

That is about the most hair splitting interpretation imaginable.

No offense, but what an incredibly weak hill to die on. Hard to envision many will agree with your take.

 

[SWC75]

Wrong...the hire before that ran a 3-3-5 and Dino saw how well it worked before the hire. The dude was recommended to Dino by a long time coaching friend. However, that guy hit the bricks as soon as he got an SEC offer for a DC job. Dino knew what he was getting from White.

Which means I was right, since that doesn't contradict what I said. Dino wanted the 3-3-5. When the first guy he chose to install it, (based on that recommendation), decided to go elsewhere, he chose White and it's worked out great.

Nobody said that Dino invented the 3-3-5, just that he decided he wanted it and he got the right guys to install it.

 

[Bayside44]

He has also lost a lot of games that shouldn't have happened. I did not layout any "standards"! You are now just putting words in my posts. Of course, if you are calling wins a standard then you are wearing a HUGE set of orange colored glasses and don't judge by wins but the likeability of Dino.

That's completely subjective in those three games and the scenarios have been repeated til everyone is blue in the face. You call them bad decisions, whatever.

 

[tep624]

The Athletic had a good article on recruiting, as well as coaching, talking about Nebraska, Wake Forest, Pitt and the "Big Three" of Florida:

Is it recruiting or coaching at Nebraska? How can the Big 3 take back Florida? Recruiting mailbag

"The Demon Deacons have signed only one top-60 recruiting class since the 2017 cycle (they finished No. 59 in 2019).

That is insane, and it goes to show you how you can build a really good team without highly rated classes. Clawson redshirted linemen and developed a team with an explosive offense that is really fun to watch. It is a natural impulse to think, “Should Wake Forest now recruit top-30 classes after this special year?” And the reality is, it doesn’t work that way. Sure, it is good to make people view your program in a winning light, and maybe the Demon Deacons — or Pitt — will have improved classes next year when prospects can believe in the vision.

But building a program takes time. It takes steady improvement class over class for years before the real big payoff comes. Both Pat Narduzzi at Pitt and Clawson at Wake have done a phenomenal job with their teams this year in a conference that is there for the taking for the first time in a handful of years. Years like this, though, aren’t the Staples “Easy” button for landing significantly better classes. Maybe these seasons will be the catalyst for moderate improvement. But it’s important to remember that this is always about building blocks."

It's possible to have top 10 seasons using this method but it does leave little room for error. That's typically why you see programs like Wake have a top 15 type year once every 6-8 years, and then most of the other years are in the 5-8 win range. The OL in particular is the challenge, if you run into injuries with a few guys you are RS'ing or run into guys just not panning out, programs like this really struggle fighting against the factories for the high end JUCO or Portal prospects.

7 seasons with a combined record of 40-45 with 3 losing seasons to get to get to a top 15 type season. A down factory program can do that in 1-2 years and has a far greater likelihood of sustaining it.

 

[Bayside44]

I was replying to the original post of:
"Dino hired the OL coach and the DC to implement his plan. He conceived of the idea to utilize the 3-5-3 system well before he chose Tony White to run the defense."

This post is incorrect. It is NOT a 3-5-3 and also that the defensive plan of White's is NOT Dino's scheme. It had nothing to do with giving credit to anything other then what was posted.

You're really hung up on 3-5-3? Poster flipped two numbers, everyone else knows what he meant.

 

[storange]

Thankfully, other then hiring them Dino had no decision in how the new schemes were deployed.

Nick Saban would have very little success if he didn’t hire excellent assistant coaches, see what I’m getting at ?

 

[SoBristol]

Agree about the transfer portal. It is a new pipeline, and we have to continue to mine it for talent [same as everybody else].

As to your second paragraph, here's what I indisputably recognize: under Baber's predecessor, we were small, slow, and had guys getting hurt seeming every 10 plays because they were undersized. Babers has recruited a nucleus that is bigger, faster, and more athletic -- and gives us the opportunity to compete against the rest of the ACC. Yes, we still have areas where depth can improve -- no argument there. But we're on the right track, and this will only improve if we can make a bowl to give our coaches something positive to sell on the recruiting trail. That's why getting to a bowl this year is so important -- and with Shrader, it could be the first of several bowls in a row.

Certainly agree that there have been seasons under past head coaches (Grob and Shafer) where we were small and slow overall - simply not talented enough, and not enough strength in the lines. Babers has recruited better, with somewhat deeper classes, and good talent (including the trio of DBs on last season’s defense - Williams, Cisco, and Melifonwu). We have a handful of young players in the current line-up who could play for other ACC programs.
So, here are my reservations — WR, DTs behind the super-seniors, safeties, OL recruits other than Ellis, depth in general behind the first string. Maybe Lamson is going to be a capable QB, and certainly Chestnut has been a revelation. Current recruiting cycle has us in the 70s. Really have to hope for an uplift in closing this class and working the portal.

 

[Killdozer]

Nick Saban would have very little success if he didn’t hire excellent assistant coaches, see what I’m getting at ?

Some posters are saying that Dino installed the 3-3-5 and that is NOT true. He liked what he saw and decided to hire a DC that could install that scheme. If you are not going to read what I am posting to then there is no need to speculate on what was being said to make me reply. See what I am getting at?

 

[Killdozer]

Which means I was right, since that doesn't contradict what I said. Dino wanted the 3-3-5. When the first guy he chose to install it, (based on that recommendation), decided to go elsewhere, he chose White and it's worked out great.

Nobody said that Dino invented the 3-3-5, just that he decided he wanted it and he got the right guys to install it.

Again, I was replying to a post that said Dino installed the 3-3-5. So YES, people are saying it was his scheme. Read the entire post stream!!

 

[Killdozer]

You're really hung up on 3-5-3? Poster flipped two numbers, everyone else knows what he meant.

My point was that it is NOT Dino's scheme. That is what the poster was saying.

 

[Bayside44]

My point was that it is NOT Dino's scheme. That is what the poster was saying.

It is now.

 

[Killdozer]

It is now.

Dino has nothing to do with the defensive play calling, so he has NOTHING to do with it.

 

[storange]

Some posters are saying that Dino installed the 3-3-5 and that is NOT true. He liked what he saw and decided to hire a DC that could install that scheme. If you are not going to read what I am posting to then there is no need to speculate on what was being said to make me reply. See what I am getting at?

You are really pretty thick so I give up . Clearly you didn’t understand my post .

 

[Killdozer]

You are really pretty thick so I give up . Clearly you didn’t understand my post .

Good because you are wrong

 

[maxxyz]

Dino has nothing to do with the defensive play calling, so he has NOTHING to do with it.

You are correct that he isn’t telling his DC how to do his job. That would be ineffective and I don’t think anyone is saying he is the guy who makes the defensive play calls.

But by hiring the right personnel to incorporate a defense that works for the recruits we can get, he is in fact deciding what defense we are playing.

So you are a little bit correct. Time move on before the hole you’re digging hits a gas line.

 

[kirbivore]

You are correct that he isn’t telling his DC how to do his job. That would be ineffective and I don’t think anyone is saying he is the guy who makes the defensive play calls.

But by hiring the right personnel to incorporate a defense that works for the recruits we can get, he is in fact deciding what defense we are playing.

So you are a little bit correct. Time move on before the hole you’re digging hits a gas line.

 

[BANYC]

Certainly agree that there have been seasons under past head coaches (Grob and Shafer) where we were small and slow overall - simply not talented enough, and not enough strength in the lines. Babers has recruited better, with somewhat deeper classes, and good talent (including the trio of DBs on last season’s defense - Williams, Cisco, and Melifonwu). We have a handful of young players in the current line-up who could play for other ACC programs.
So, here are my reservations — WR, DTs behind the super-seniors, safeties, OL recruits other than Ellis, depth in general behind the first string. Maybe Lamson is going to be a capable QB, and certainly Chestnut has been a revelation. Current recruiting cycle has us in the 70s. Really have to hope for an uplift in closing this class and working the portal.

How much of the ratings in the 70s is due to there only being 10 recruits multiplied by their individual ratings?

If there were 20 commits, wouldn’t
the overall ranking be higher? (20 X approx 85.5 per recruit?)

 

[RF2044]

Certainly agree that there have been seasons under past head coaches (Grob and Shafer) where we were small and slow overall - simply not talented enough, and not enough strength in the lines. Babers has recruited better, with somewhat deeper classes, and good talent (including the trio of DBs on last season’s defense - Williams, Cisco, and Melifonwu). We have a handful of young players in the current line-up who could play for other ACC programs.
So, here are my reservations — WR, DTs behind the super-seniors, safeties, OL recruits other than Ellis, depth in general behind the first string. Maybe Lamson is going to be a capable QB, and certainly Chestnut has been a revelation. Current recruiting cycle has us in the 70s. Really have to hope for an uplift in closing this class and working the portal.

Agree somewhat. I think the OL recruits the last two years have been quality, and fit the mold of what we're trying to do. But for a program in our spot, with the depth constraints we've had the past two years and the massive injuries we've sustained even this year, it has to remain a concerted focus. Love that we're bringing in guys who are 6-4 to 6-6 and in the 265 range. But those guys take a year or two to "grow" into where they can see the field. And for the love of god, can we please mix a starting caliber center recruit in???

I see the other roster spots similar to you:

• TE -- especially now that Morris is gone, and with Elmore [hybrid TE] about to run out of eligibility
• WR -- liked what we brought in last year, need to bolster via transfer portal to enhance next year's corps
• DT -- high on Fuentes and Lockett, need more. Would kill to land a ready to play JUCO or transfer DT
• DE -- again, I like some of the young raw materials. Transfers have to be considered here
• CB -- Just like everyone else; have to start preparing for post-Williams

I think we're doing pretty well otherwise. Obviously, depth / attrition have changed due to the portal and guys being able to leave without having to sit out. Changes the game for everyone.

 

[upperdeck]

Wake hit the perfect storm,. A decent QB that normally be a SR.. A down league. A large number of super Srs. Really good WR core with multiple threats. And winning the Turnover game every week

even with all that they dodged bullets vs Lou/SU/Army and didnt survive UNC. so 8-1 not 6-3 which is really what they probably should be..

If they were 6-3 and one was our loss we would both be 6-3..

they gave up 500+ yds to Virg/Army/SU/Lou/UNC and won 4 times.. Thats hard to do.